PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by solamahn » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 22:39

This 50v thing is not a fault. They are designed that way. The idea must be that if the batteries are above 50v at the start of the day, then they dont need bulk/absorb. I only did the test with 2424msx and 2448ms on the bench using ac charge. I just connected 4 batteries and took their voltage down below 50, then charged and then tried it with a starting voltage above 50.
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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 22:46

The thing is 16 x Lifep04 cells will always be over 50v (unless under a very big load) So they would never trigger bulk absorb if that's how the units behave.

If the AC/DC charger act's the same then I can test that today.
EDIT: I can confirm when charging from the built in AC/DC charger in the PIP4048 and starting with a voltage above 50v (53.3V) It went to bulk as expected. I will test the PV charger on the weekend and confirm that to.

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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by solamahn » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 23:00

I dont think there is any difference with the charge profile if you are using solar charge or ac charge. I will test a 4048 also.
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Post by weber » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 04:47

According to page 12 of the manual,
http://www.mppsolar.com/manual/PIP-MS%2 ... manual.pdf
you can tell it's in float mode from the LCD by the word "charging" combined with all four bars of the battery symbol being on solid, none flashing. If you see the top bar flashing while the battery voltage is higher than the float setting, then you're in absorb.

I'm pretty sure I saw absorb stages despite the battery never falling below 50 volts. But I suppose it might have just been the overshoot you describe, Kurt. I have absorb 55.2 V, float 53.8 V with 16 x LiFePO4.
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Post by solamahn » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 10:22

If the middle green led is solid, that is float. I am just thinking about these inverter failures. Could be a combination of full battery, maximum w of panels and the load. Full battery will not regulate the DC voltage as well as a not full battery. Maximum w of panels has the ability to supply a lot of current. Fluctuating load might set things off. 2s panels might also have something to do with it. Really need to log the fault codes continuously to get more information of what happened just before a failure. Lately, I have been setting bulk to 57, float to 54.8 and LVD to 47.
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Post by solamahn » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 12:43

Just connected a 4048 to AC in and 4 x 12v250 AGM's. Batt voltage was 51.5 and went into bulk mode up to around 57v, then current started to reduce which would be absorption mode and then went into float. This did not take long because the batteries were quite full at the start. So it looks like the 50v setting of 2424 and 2448 does not apply to 4048. Also inverter does not need to be on for battery charging, either ac or solar.
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Post by solamahn » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 12:51

Just boiled the jug to get the battery voltage down and note that fans run when the load is connected and stop when the load is removed.
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Post by solamahn » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 13:32

Just did a better charging test starting at 51v. Battery charge current gradually increased to the 30A current limit. Then voltage gradually increased to the value in 26, 57v. Then current gradually decreased to 10A and then switched to float. Not sure if the switch to float is time dependent. As it happened right at 10A, I am thinking that the switch over is current dependent. I will try changing prog 11 to 20A to see what happens
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 14:00

Fans are triggered by load. As you noticed any load over a few hundred watts and the fans come on.

The charge profile is described in the manual along with a tiny little graph with some text that's almost imposable to read.

the graph and text show. Time at absorb voltage = time to reach absorb (Min 15min max 8hrs)... from memory.

Though I don't see it following this as it doesn't spend 15min at absorb voltage if you (re bulk a all ready full battery) it more or less just returns to float within a min or two.

So it acts like I would want it to but not how it's listed in the manual.

Kurt

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Post by solamahn » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 14:23

Yes. Charges just how it should.
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 14:46

This is the charge profile graph from the user manual enlarged to read the super small text.

So min 10min for the absorb stage and max 8hrs (though it doesn't actually do a 10min minimum) I'm not sure about the 8hr max in absorb max. Considering the 10 min min doesn't apply then who knows how it bases how long it will spend in absorb?

It might still be determined by how long it takes to get to absorb voltage just the min and max times stated in the graph below from the manual are not enforced?

Image

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Post by coulomb » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 14:52

As a point of interest, what firmware version are you guys using? Have you done the firmware upgrade mentioned in Adverse Effect's post?

You can tell your software versions from WatchPower; in the lower left quadrant, there is Main CPU version (actually main firmware version, for the main controller, which has the inverter and AC charger), and the Secondary CPU version (which I assume is for the SCC (Solar Charge Controller, the MPPT charger).

I'm playing with one that has main version 52.02, but the update would bring it to 52.30. It's not clear to me how to decide if it's safe to apply the update; they say in the readme file:
"please DO NOT update if your unit is manufactured prior to 2014 as otherwise may cause inverter to work incorrectly". How do you know when it was manufactured?
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1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
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Post by solamahn » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 15:03

You can read the manufacture month and year on the right hand side of the inverter on the sticker placed over one of the cover screws.
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 15:10

I just checked using Watchpower. I am running main CPU version 52.25

I haven't upgraded anything just what it came with.

Nothing is showing up in the Secondary CPU version. Im assuming this is because I don't have any PV connected so the MPPT charge controller has no power to communicate the info.

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Post by weber » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 15:51

coulomb wrote:You can tell your software versions from WatchPower; in the lower left quadrant, there is Main CPU version (actually main firmware version, for the main controller, which has the inverter and AC charger), and the Secondary CPU version (which I assume is for the SCC (Solar Charge Controller, the MPPT charger).
You don't need WatchPower. The last two display settings of the LCD, that you cycle through with the up/down buttons, as shown on page 23 of the manual, show "U1" and "U2", and give these two version numbers. There's an implied decimal point between the two pairs of digits.
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Post by solamahn » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 16:24

The one I am using now is 52.25
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Post by PlanB » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 23:10

I've got a couple of these boxes here in parallel. At the mo the batteries are on light charge (1A each so around 100w total) and the inverters are idling into a 60w globe, the LCD shows battery on charge & mains bypassed to the load too). The load sharing seems to hunt badly, every time I query it I get a different output power but lets say ~100w.
But when I put a clamp meter around the mains input the pair are pulling 4.7A! So 200w for the load & the batteries but 1200w from the mains. 500w/box overhead seems a bit steep!?
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Post by solamahn » Tue, 23 Jun 2015, 23:34

Set 19 to FEP, 20 to LON and then have both screens display load in watts. Each inverter should hunt a bit. One will go up while the other goes down and vice versa. Then read your battery current with your clamp.
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Post by solamahn » Wed, 24 Jun 2015, 14:31

This is what I found in the 3248/4048 service manual.
ALL of the mosfet are 11-320110-00G (MOSFET IR/IRFB3307ZPBF 120A 75V N BULK TO-220).* *: In the new version, they will be 11-320138-00G (MOSFET TI/CSD19505KCS 201A 80V N BULK TO-220) or 11-320117-00G (MOSFET IR/IRFB3077 210A 75V N BULK TO-220)
No wonder I am having so many 4048 mosfet failures. I think it's a combination of full batteries not aiding much to voltage regulation, the undersize mosfets and perhaps variation in solar input current and load.
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Post by PlanB » Wed, 24 Jun 2015, 17:08

Confirming my results this morning for the 2 boxes in parallel;
AC mains current in the pair 4.8A at 251v = 1205w
AC inverter current to the 60w lamp 0.24 at 251v = 60w
DC current charging the battery 2.1A at 54v = 113w
So in round numbers 200w out, 1200w in so about 500w/box lost in overheads.
Maybe a lot of the inefficiency is happening in the charger? When I cycle through the display screens, one of them reports 1-2A AC on each box for battery current. If, by AC, they mean mains current then that's 250-500w AC in for 54-108w DC of actual charging.

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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 24 Jun 2015, 17:25

That has to be a big error in your metering. There is no way you are loosing 500w ! to heat in each PIP. If you were you would be able to cook sosages on the thing.

I have used my PIP to charge battery's from AC and power a load at the same time for several hrs on end and it's not even warm.

Let me conduct the same test and I will get back to you with the numbers .

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Post by weber » Wed, 24 Jun 2015, 17:32

PlanB, you're only measuring AC current. You have no idea of its phase or harmonic relationship to the AC voltage and hence its power factor. All you can say is that it's 1205 VA. You don't know how many watts. You need a true power meter. You could use the one in your meter box. If you turn off everything else in the place you could time how long between LED pulses or disk rotations and calculate the power.



There follows a long off-topic discussion on Power Meters. You can skip it by clicking this link.
viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter& ... 332#p57655
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Post by PlanB » Wed, 24 Jun 2015, 18:20

You're right of course Dave, can you recommend an affordable accurate RMS plug in appliance checker power measuring thingamy

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Post by weber » Wed, 24 Jun 2015, 20:17

PlanB wrote: You're right of course Dave, can you recommend an affordable accurate RMS plug in appliance checker power measuring thingamy

The Power Mate Lite here https://shop.ata.org.au/product-categor ... -test-gear
provided you won't have more than 10 A. Manual here:
http://www.power-mate.com.au/pdfs/PML%2 ... 20R1-8.pdf

I wouldn't trust the $29 one as far as I could kick it.
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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 24 Jun 2015, 22:32

I would like to see some back to back tests to prove how bad the $29 job is compared to the other one.

Not saying it's great .

Kurt

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