No more i-miev's

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Richo
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No more i-miev's

Post by Richo » Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 13:08

So I don't follow production EV's but I only just found out they don't sell/make the miev anymore.
Anybody know what the last MY was?
Or the reason for killing the electric car...
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by coulomb » Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 13:38

Richo wrote:
Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 13:08
So I don't follow production EV's but I only just found out they don't sell/make the miev anymore.
My understanding is that they are still made for some markets, including Japan.
Anybody know what the last MY was?
Per the Wikipedia article, the announcement for discontinuing in the USA was made in August 2017, the UK in 2016, Netherlands in 2019. And of course in Australia "As of March 2014, Mitsubishi is no longer selling the i-MiEV due to slow sales."
Or the reason for killing the electric car...
" The i-Miev had sold poorly in the United States from its introduction." Perhaps not muscle-car enough for the US market. I doubt that would apply to other markets, particularly Europe. It's sad to see its markets decline.

Edit: of course, poor marketing could be a factor.
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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by PiMan » Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 15:18

Another trouble is that is barely changed in almost a decade, while technology keeps marching on.
Mitsubishi was effectively still trying to get people to buy an early-adopter's car after the early adopter period faded away.

Well, except here. We're still kinda in that early adopter stage, if you judge it by sale numbers.

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by nuggetgalore » Tue, 05 Nov 2019, 06:25

"Perhaps not muscle-car enough for the US market."

My guess similar reason for Australia. Add to it the range anxiety ,high price and lack of environmental awareness. Ten years on and a lot has changed.
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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by bladecar » Tue, 05 Nov 2019, 07:52

The electric car hasn't been killed. Ask Tesla.
I wonder why Ford and Holden killed their cars.

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by Richo » Tue, 05 Nov 2019, 12:35

PiMan wrote:
Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 15:18
Another trouble is that is barely changed in almost a decade, while technology keeps marching on.
Not really.
The motor, controller and batteries that are in the i-miev are all still relevant.
Only the looks and gimmicky junk that is in the car has changed.
It should have been a consolidation of parts and a refresh of the body - like the leaf.

Ford killed the focus because it was a petrol car with ev stuff in it - you know rush to get it to market.
Chev killed theirs because they think the timing was "too early".
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by bladecar » Tue, 05 Nov 2019, 14:22

Well nobody has killed the electric car. And on the Australian Electric Vehicle Association website, I'm not sure why anyone would want to put it in those terms, at least not anyone who drives or has owned an electric car. I've driven an imiev twice today. It's not dead. It's an introductory car. Mitsubishi simply haven't tried. I'm sure they'll piggy-back on other manufacturers when they simply cannot ignore it any more (I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted).
It is a very Japanese car as anyone who's been to Japan (not I) will explain. The roads there are very narrow and the imiev is perfect for use there.

I couldn't be bothered going on to petrol or diesel car websites and continually attacking some aspect of their usefulness. Normal observation on the roads (especially from a motorcycle perspective) does that perfectly adequately.
Ford killed the petrol falcon because they were not relevant to the future.
Holden killed whatever petrol vehicles they were making last for the same reason.
Instead they're importing vehicles that normally won't sell in Australia for specialist owners who simply want that sort of thing.

One discussion on why American vehicles don't sell outside America concluded that eventually America might sell only American cars in America. Some large group of people there wouldn't object. An even larger group of Americans would continue to change the way it used to be there.

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by bladecar » Tue, 05 Nov 2019, 19:26

"by Richo » 04 Nov 2019 15:08
So I don't follow production EV's but I only just found out they don't sell/make the miev anymore.
Anybody know what the last MY was?
Or the reason for killing the electric car..."

After 11 years on Australian Electric Vehicle Association web site, Richo said: "So I don't follow production EV's but...."
Richo doesn't own a non-production ev because Western Australian technology, being top-class, has prevented him from finishing whichever car he says he is building (after 11 years).
Richo does know electronics (it seems), but he knows fat cats who don't believe in climate change, and Richo offers comments complete with not-so-positive indicators.

On a different note, see how saudi arabia is going to issue some public shares in their oil industry (something like 2% but only worth something like 2.3 billion US dollars).
This reminds me that the thing about buying printers, coffee machines etc for next to no cost is because the cost is built into the ink and the little individually-packaged coffee pods.
I was in the US in the past and the transport that picked us up at the airport was a brand new people carrier with a V10 engine. I chatted with the driver who said that he didn't think it was made all that well but it was so cheap that it was a no-brainer to buy it (one of the big US brands). This brings me back to the printers and the coffee machines. The vehicles are cheap, but the stuff you make them run on goes on and on.

Maybe what I say is unacceptable but "I" think I'm not wrong.

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by Richo » Wed, 06 Nov 2019, 12:58

bladecar wrote:
Tue, 05 Nov 2019, 14:22
Well nobody has killed the electric car.
Well it was a pun on the docco "who killed the electric car" in that they got rid of the EV1 for apparently no good reason.

But I guess profit is good a reason as any :roll:
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by Richo » Wed, 06 Nov 2019, 13:05

bladecar wrote:
Tue, 05 Nov 2019, 19:26
Richo doesn't own a non-production ev because Western Australian technology, being top-class, has prevented him from finishing whichever car he says he is building (after 11 years).
Yep paying jobs are more important that my own interests.
Sadly no one has paid me to build all the components required for an EV :cry:
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by bladecar » Wed, 06 Nov 2019, 18:16

So sad, too bad :)

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by PiMan » Thu, 07 Nov 2019, 08:36

Richo wrote:
Tue, 05 Nov 2019, 12:35
PiMan wrote:
Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 15:18
Another trouble is that is barely changed in almost a decade, while technology keeps marching on.
Not really.
The motor, controller and batteries that are in the i-miev are all still relevant.
Only the looks and gimmicky junk that is in the car has changed.
It should have been a consolidation of parts and a refresh of the body - like the leaf.

Ford killed the focus because it was a petrol car with ev stuff in it - you know rush to get it to market.
Chev killed theirs because they think the timing was "too early".
Are the batteries really all that relevant? Sure, the basic chemistry is the same as most any lithium ion battery, but there's only 17 kWh of it. The car doesn't have the range to compete in today's market.

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by Richo » Thu, 07 Nov 2019, 12:42

Lets say you drive 300,000km before a battery change in 10 years on the standard pack.
Now lets say you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but you pay an extra $10,000 for a bigger pack.
Or perhaps you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but pay an extra $25,000 for a super sized pack.
Then maybe you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but pay an extra $50,000 for the extreme sized pack.

Economically it makes no sense.
But sure compete all you want.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by bladecar » Thu, 07 Nov 2019, 18:28

Richo wrote:
Thu, 07 Nov 2019, 12:42
Lets say you drive 300,000km before a battery change in 10 years on the standard pack.
Now lets say you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but you pay an extra $10,000 for a bigger pack.
Or perhaps you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but pay an extra $25,000 for a super sized pack.
Then maybe you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but pay an extra $50,000 for the extreme sized pack.

Economically it makes no sense.
But sure compete all you want.
So what did we say here. Did it make any sense?
Did we talk about trip distances, whether they are more or less than the range of the car?
Did this make any sense?
Economically what doesn't make sense? Endlessly buying bigger battery packs?
The odd electronic stuff but endlessly clogging the internet waves. 11 years.

Ooh, I think my drain's clogged. :geek:

Edit: Sorry, forgot the indeterminate emoticon.

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by HuffnPuff » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 03:48

Economically what doesn't make sense? Endlessly buying bigger battery packs?
Economically it doesn’t make sense to buy a massive battery pack if you don’t need the range. The marketers have got hold of range anxiety and driven up EV prices because apparently we all need 400km if range to drive 400km per week.

My fossil fuelled vehicle does around 3 weeks on a tank of fuel. About once every 2-3 months I drive it on a 150-200km return trip. I’d be happy with a 250km range to save the cost of batteries.

How about an EV model that has say 200km of range but you can hire a 200km battery pack that slots in easily as a range extender.

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by bladecar » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 05:37

HuffnPuff wrote:
Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 03:48
Economically what doesn't make sense? Endlessly buying bigger battery packs?
Economically it doesn’t make sense to buy a massive battery pack if you don’t need the range. The marketers have got hold of range anxiety and driven up EV prices because apparently we all need 400km if range to drive 400km per week.

My fossil fuelled vehicle does around 3 weeks on a tank of fuel. About once every 2-3 months I drive it on a 150-200km return trip. I’d be happy with a 250km range to save the cost of batteries.

How about an EV model that has say 200km of range but you can hire a 200km battery pack that slots in easily as a range extender.
Hi,
I think 200km is the range to aim for for the everyday EV. It's not an essential range but it is a comfortable range for unusual city travel days.
I've argued against the concept of hiring battery packs as I feel the time would come where the cost to do it would ramp up and the number of hired battery packs with problems would increase, a bit like hired dvds, and returning a non-performing dvd was simpler than the idea of returning a non-performing battery-pack.
The problem is capitalism and the free-market. To move down the battery-hire road is to move to the 'battery range reduces as cost increases to the point where the consumer is just about fed up' normality.

I'm adding this bit later:
In this modern age, our OWNED Government must stand up and put some form of pressure on to the OWNING Governments of the world to put in a regulation which recognises theTesla practice of taking back their own battery packs for reconditioning with minimal pollution (this probably only applies within America at the mo.) Can't you just visualise a battery-hire world where a pack is tipped off a forklift into a gully at the end of some industrial lot to make room for other indeterminate battery-packs to take its place in some shed. At the start, not of the battery hire world, but of the EV world WITH batteries (other tech would be good if it were better, EV wise), control of batteries need to be complete, at the beginning. We know the active ingredients are not converted into anything (unlike sh*tty petrol and diesel), and so can just be remade into new product.

If you own your original batteries and that's all you have, you always know what they'll do until they won't do it.

So, I really think that when batteries get to 600km range when driven normally, that will be the sweet spot, at least here in Australia. This comment will encourage "Kahooaticapotomus" or someone similar to say "See, it's never going to happen" or "What about the cost". I think it is going to happen. Tesla, in a general sense, are just about there.

For the imiev, we're talking about owning a Suzuki Swift in the car world, nothing to do with range or performance, just where it sits among the car types.
Vehicle types always have to be remembered. The imiev is a local transport that came out a long time ago. The ones that are still running are usually doing what they were designed to do.

Hey, remember the Austin A30?? What a car!! But really, who would buy a petrol car if that's all they can do? And who would own an Austin A30 today? Mmm, didn't go there but you can buy one today.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... YhxQKQKc8L :D :roll: :oops: :evil:

Edit: Added the bit about recycling batteries, oh and an emoticon :evil: :x

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by Richo » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 12:50

bladecar wrote:
Thu, 07 Nov 2019, 18:28
The odd electronic stuff but endlessly clogging the internet waves. 11 years.
But I guess I'd be a hero if I bought some junk from O/S, slapped it in a car, made a quick buck, then walked away.
Please keep it on topic.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by PiMan » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 15:34

Richo wrote:
Thu, 07 Nov 2019, 12:42
Lets say you drive 300,000km before a battery change in 10 years on the standard pack.
Now lets say you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but you pay an extra $10,000 for a bigger pack.
Or perhaps you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but pay an extra $25,000 for a super sized pack.
Then maybe you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but pay an extra $50,000 for the extreme sized pack.

Economically it makes no sense.
But sure compete all you want.
The iMiEV's range is so low that it makes me drive less than I would otherwise. On the one hand, yay, fewer cars on the road because low range EVs aren't being driven as often, and I'm getting more exercise as I walk or public transport more of the short-medium distance trips. But on the other hand, it means your numbers are a little off.
Maybe 300 000 km in 15 years on the standard pack, 12 years on the bigger pack, and 10 years on the super and extreme packs.

There is no doubt that there is a point where the larger battery is a waste of money and resources, but the iMiEV is well short of that.

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by jonescg » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 16:18

Well now that I've finished the Prelude I can finally move on with fitting the 60 Ah cells to Pauline's iMiEV. Will make it a bit more useful I think.
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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by nuggetgalore » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 19:56

jonescg wrote:
Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 16:18
Well now that I've finished the Prelude I can finally move on with fitting the 60 Ah cells to Pauline's iMiEV. Will make it a bit more useful I think.
Ah, I was going to ask on the progress of this project.
Mine is down to 80km ( less on a cold day), maybe I have to come out west and say hello after an absence of fifty years...ought to show my better half why I did like Perth!
Trouble is the technology to just load the iMiEV into the computer and send it to get repaired is not working yet....have to wait for that alien invasion to teach us.
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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by bladecar » Sat, 09 Nov 2019, 10:33

Richo wrote:
Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 13:08
So I don't follow production EV's but I only just found out they don't sell/make the miev anymore. :D
Anybody know what the last MY was?
Or the reason for killing the electric car... :evil:
And then Richo said:

"But I guess I'd be a hero if I bought some junk from O/S, slapped it in a car, made a quick buck, then walked away.
Please keep it on topic." :roll:

The topic: "So I don't follow production EV's but I only just found out they don't sell/make the miev anymore."

They do make the imiev. :!:

The topic: "Or the reason for killing the electric car... ;)"

I say, a subscriber to the Australian Electric Vehicle Association for 11 years, one who says he doesn't follow commercial ev trends, doesn't own an ev (although every frequent visitor to this site would have thought what a wonderful little car he converted to ev - why else would you show this picture above your ID 8-) ) has asked not why the imiev is not sold/made (it is) but what reason there was for killing (not the imiev) but t h e electric car. Electric cars, all gone :evil: but Richo's favourite whether he's saying something specific or something random is the :roll: emoticon, because he seems to prefer uncertainty about all, whether he just said something quite mainstream, or something from an different conversation.

So, the topic was a false premise. :mrgreen: But it would't matter what the topic was as long as our Man continues to add more subtle items to the feed.

No more attacks from me. I will, however, in my straightest style, respond to any topic (any non-technical topic, and if I actually have something to say) from him, that I feel like responding to, with a possible alternative to what he actually says (complete with emoticons, of course, either to emphasise what I've said, or to make you wonder whether you can trust what I just said :? because that is his way, and I should adapt my language to suit :D )

Richo, you'll be a hero if you were to drive your OWN Electric Vehicle, and above all, to present yourself to your Western Australian compatriots who are here because where else would they be, show them your car, identify yourself. Actually, that's how you would do it.

Edit: Lots and lots of edit for grammar and clarity, oh, and to add emoticons (I'd prefer background music. Richo and I would fight for the use of JAWS when discussing the perils of owning an electric car :lol: )

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by bladecar » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 11:29

Richo wrote:
Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 13:08
So I don't follow production EV's but I only just found out they don't sell/make the miev anymore.
Anybody know what the last MY was?
Or the reason for killing the electric car...
So I don't follow production Diesels but I only just found out they don't sell/make clean diesels ever. :|
Anybody know what the last clean diesel was? :oops:
Or the reason for not killing the diesel car... :? :D

ABCNewsOnline: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-05/ ... n/11449650

Toyota diesel emissions expose broader problem with car pollution in Australia

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 11:43

Richo wrote:
Thu, 07 Nov 2019, 12:42
Lets say you drive 300,000km before a battery change in 10 years on the standard pack.
Now lets say you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but you pay an extra $10,000 for a bigger pack.
Or perhaps you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but pay an extra $25,000 for a super sized pack.
Then maybe you still drive 300,000km in the 10 years but pay an extra $50,000 for the extreme sized pack.

Economically it makes no sense.
But sure compete all you want.
The 10 yr wall seems to be a bit of a mystery to me, where did that come from? The way I see it, battery pack X suffers enough degradation over the 10 yr period it requires replacing.
Battery pack Y was more expensive but had a better range and the added capacity meant the remaining range at 10 yrs was still enough to continue doing the duty the battery pack X can no longer do.
Battery pack Z was even more expensive, but came with even more range than the "Y" battery pack and would still be performing the trips the "X" pack performed well after the X
"X" pack had required replacement and the "Y" pack was on its last legs. The fact the pack was so much bigger meant there was less strain placed on each cell and that would lead to an even longer service life.
So, if you intended to keep the EV beyond the 10yr life expectancy of the X pack, the Z pack would be the better choice because the range was better as well as the total expected service life.

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 12:00

bladecar wrote:
Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 11:29
Richo wrote:
Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 13:08
So I don't follow production EV's but I only just found out they don't sell/make the miev anymore.
Anybody know what the last MY was?
Or the reason for killing the electric car...
So I don't follow production Diesels but I only just found out they don't sell/make clean diesels ever. :|
Anybody know what the last clean diesel was? :oops:
Or the reason for not killing the diesel car... :? :D

ABCNewsOnline: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-05/ ... n/11449650

Toyota diesel emissions expose broader problem with car pollution in Australia
The common rail diesel was the last significant improvement in regards to exhaust pollution, evry device after than was virtually a cheat to get around the more recent emissions standards. The insane part started when the authorities thought they had forced manufacturers into making cleaner emission engines by mandating regulations. If the manufacturers had come straight out and admitted they could not meet the required emission levels rather than cheating, the whole nonsense would have stopped 10 yrs ago.
You can't redirect diesel exhaust into the intake in an attempt to lower combustion temperatures the way it does with a petrol engine. The carbon partials from the exhaust settle onto the colder surfaces and slowly seal up the passage and the valve itself so instead of being a fix, it just becomes another maintenance item and reduces the over all fuel efficiency at the same time.
The Adblu and particulate filter nonsense, either the particulate filter and adblu nozzles have to experience high exhaust temps to burn them clean thus dumping the stuff they collected out the exhaust anyway, or they block up and become yet another consumable ..... and where does the full particulate filter go after it's full? That thing is full of poisons and carcinogenic, do we just bury it in land fill?
If this whole stupid merry go round had stopped 10yrs ago, the electric vehicle uptake would have been much quicker because it was a no brainer, either a petrol powered vehicle or an electric powered vehicle or a mix of the two, diesel engines would have been removed from the selection menu. All the money spent on trying to trick the emissions tests and building diesel engines they knew could never comply, they could have spent on electric vehicle design and improvement.

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Re: No more i-miev's

Post by antiscab » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 12:09

T1 Terry wrote:
Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 11:43
So, if you intended to keep the EV beyond the 10yr life expectancy of the X pack, the Z pack would be the better choice because the range was better as well as the total expected service life.
That's the strategy I'm going for with the Zoe

likely that's also the strategy the major manufacturers are going for.

halving or doubling a battery size is $5k either way in a car that retails for $50k+. The value proposition doesn't work out for low range when brand new.
The value proposition works out very well for a older second hand vehicle with reduced range.
Matt
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2007 vectrix - 156'000km
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2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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