Home charging

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FalconSMG
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Home charging

Post by FalconSMG » Mon, 26 Aug 2019, 09:04

Just bought a new leaf!

1. Do i need a faster charger than using a 10amp 240V solution? The car will mostly be driven <50km/day and occasionally 140Km. I'm guessing not but thought I't see what others think?
2. Is the Nissan 240V charger OK or would you purchase one from EVSE or other 3rd party supplier

eg

https://www.evse.com.au/type2-portable- ... -plug.html

Thanks

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coulomb
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Re: Home charging

Post by coulomb » Mon, 26 Aug 2019, 11:16

FalconSMG wrote:
Mon, 26 Aug 2019, 09:04
Just bought a new leaf!
Congratulations! And welcome to the forum.
1. Do i need a faster charger than using a 10amp 240V solution? The car will mostly be driven <50km/day and occasionally 140Km. I'm guessing not but thought I't see what others think?
It's a personal preference issue. Some say that the granny charger that comes with the car is all you'll ever need, others say you need the option of faster charging at home, for those unexpected situations. I've had my 2012 Leaf for only 2 months, but so far, I've only used the granny charger at home, and I'm fine with that so far. I charge 98% from solar, so I actually set the car's charge timer for 9:30am to 3:00pm. If you don't have a lot of solar, you probably want to change to charging overnight, and choose the Time Of Use electricity tariff.
2. Is the Nissan 240V charger OK or would you purchase one from EVSE or other 3rd party supplier
eg
https://www.evse.com.au/type2-portable- ... -plug.html
The Nissan EVSE is fine; it's just a little large and has only one power level (9-10 amps). If you want to take your EVSE with you when you drive, in case of emergencies, then you'll quickly get sick of moving it from the wall to the boot, so you'll want a third party EVSE such as the one you linked to above, so you can leave one of them at home.

I note that the one above is rated at only 1.9 kW, a bit less (and therefore slower) than the Nissan EVSE. I've been thinking about the type 1 equivalent of something like these for an even lower price:

Zencar EVSE 6-16A shake to change power level
Duosida EVSE, seems 16 A fixed current

I can't quickly find the type 2 version of the Zwet type 1 EVSE that I'm thinking of getting. It has even more settings between 6 A and 16 A, which might suit my solar charging better (e.g. set the charge current down on cloudy days, up on sunny days).

[ Edit: this looks like it here: Zwet type 2 EVSE 6 A - 16 A button adjustable current ]

NOTE: all these cheap Ali Express EVSEs come with a European 2-pin plug; you'd have to get an electrician to chop that off and put on a standard Australian 15 A or 20 A plug (and you'll need a dedicated outdoor outlet for the EVSE to plug into, at least long term). The difference in price is worth it to me; you may prefer to buy one that is ready to go and has a decent warranty and support.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: Home charging

Post by brendon_m » Mon, 26 Aug 2019, 11:34

It really depends on how fast you want to recharge.

Manufacturers all seem to go with "80% charge in X minutes". But I personally find the best way to measure charge rate is km per hour, (although it does vary with driving style, efficiency etc)
Ie a 10a 240v evse would recharge at a rate of 10-15km per hour. So if you're happy to charge over night for 3-5 hours to recharge the 50km and 10-15 hours for the 140km then I'd say save your money.

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Re: Home charging

Post by Richo » Mon, 26 Aug 2019, 12:33

brendon_m wrote:
Mon, 26 Aug 2019, 11:34
... measure charge rate is km per hour
kph
Classic :lol:

I agree km/hr makes sense.

Still the funny looks I'd get if I said I charge at 15kph.
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Re: Home charging

Post by coulomb » Mon, 26 Aug 2019, 12:43

Richo wrote:
Mon, 26 Aug 2019, 12:33
Still the funny looks I'd get if I said I charge at 15kph.
I like how the latest ultra rapid chargers can charge at faster than the speed of sound :shock:

Edit: there has to be a joke in there somewhere about the sonic boom...
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
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Re: Home charging

Post by Bryce » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 03:21

Hi there-as an electrician and EVSE installer, to answer your query re what to use to charge at home: the EVSE that comes with it is really only meant for emergency use (like a spare tyre). Better to use a properly designed EV plug/ socket combo if you want long lasting connections. All the manufacturers recommend wall mounted Mode 3 EVSEs for regular use. (I suggest with a tethered lead if just for home or BYO lead if for public use). Suggest shopping around for EVSE installation pricing though: some dealer quotes are on the exxy side! (Are EVSEs the new add-on, 'upsell' option?) Pics below show what happens to normal leads with extended EV charging use.
Cheers
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Re: Home charging

Post by FalconSMG » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 08:53

Grim photos!

So, at the risk of being annoying, are there any recommendations for wall chargers?

For a Leaf, I assume that 3 phase charging is overkill though seems not much in it for pricing.

Looking at:

1. 32 amp 3 phase - $980 https://store.jetcharge.com.au/collecti ... e-2-socket
2. Unit that comes in 16A or 32A, single phase or 3 phase https://store.jetcharge.com.au/collecti ... 9798143035
3. JuiceBox 40 Single Phase 7kW Type 2 32A

Any comments/suggestions?

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Re: Home charging

Post by coulomb » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 11:03

Bryce wrote:
Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 03:21
Pics below show what happens to normal leads with extended EV charging use.
We've argued this before (back in 2013). A properly prepared and maintained GPO and plug won't overheat like that.

I paid an extra $7 for my outdoor outlet's metal parts to be rhodium plated (the 15 A outlet with rhodium is available from Bunnings, even). I hope it will help a little to reduce the possibility of overheating through oxidisation.

"Proper" connectors such as J1772 connectors also occasionally fail, hopefully less often than domestic plugs, as you'd hope and expect for the price. From the above linked thread:

Image
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: Home charging

Post by coulomb » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 11:07

FalconSMG wrote:
Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 08:53
For a Leaf, I assume that 3 phase charging is overkill though seems not much in it for pricing.
Three phase or not would be decided by (1) if you car can use three phase (I assume that Leaf 2.0 can as it uses type 2 connectors, earlier models can not as they use the J1772 type 1 connector), and (2) if you have three phase available at your house. Adding three phase to a single phase house or business could be quite expensive.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: Home charging

Post by FalconSMG » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 11:31

Thanks all-I already have 3 phase.

Will chat to my sparky to discuss options and cost.

Enjoyed reading all the different positions on the subject.

Nissan are a bit useless at the moment- no wall to car cables available anyway, no maintenance schedule or pricing, no technical details on website, couldn't ell me battery capacity in vehicle! Hopefully, they will get their heads around this in weeks to come.

Guess I'll just use public stations till i sort things out at home.

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Re: Home charging

Post by weber » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 12:27

Bryce, what do those photos have to do with a portable EVSE plugged directly into a 15 A IP63 outlet (or better)? All I see is a DIY plug, and an extension lead left out in the weather.

Coulomb, the term "granny charger" is what people call a portable EVSE to make themselves feel better after they realise how much money they wasted for a box on the wall that charges 50% faster than they have ever needed to charge.
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Re: Home charging

Post by weber » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 12:43

Bryce, can you point me to where, in the Nissan Leaf Owner's Manual, it says the supplied EVSE is only for emergency charging? Here's what I find in the printed manual that came with my wife's 2012 Nissan Leaf, page CH-6:

"Normal charging is performed using an 110-240 volt dedicated electrical outlet using the EVSE provided with the vehicle."
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Re: Home charging

Post by FalconSMG » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 12:54

Part of the issue for me is that they DON'T provide a wall to vehicle EVSE only a type 2 to type 2. I wouldn't be having this discussion except i have to choose between a $500-600 dollar cable or a $900 plus installation wall charger. So the gap is reduced by Nissans choice of cable they supply. maybe I should see if they will swap the Type 2 to type 2 for the alternative?

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Re: Home charging

Post by antiscab » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 13:02

wait - why are they saying the cable is worth $500 - $600?

they're $200:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3302384 ... b201603_53

can you opt out of buying anything from nissan at all? just take $500-$600 off the cost of the car?
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Re: Home charging

Post by weber » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 13:38

FalconSMG wrote:
Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 12:54
Part of the issue for me is that they DON'T provide a wall to vehicle EVSE only a type 2 to type 2. I wouldn't be having this discussion except i have to choose between a $500-600 dollar cable or a $900 plus installation wall charger. So the gap is reduced by Nissans choice of cable they supply. maybe I should see if they will swap the Type 2 to type 2 for the alternative?
Thanks for explaining. If they will swap the Type 2 lead for a portable EVSE at no added cost, that would be a good deal. Can't hurt to ask.
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Re: Home charging

Post by Bryce » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 10:25

weber wrote:
Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 12:43
Bryce, can you point me to where, in the Nissan Leaf Owner's Manual, it says the supplied EVSE is only for emergency charging? Here's what I find in the printed manual that came with my wife's 2012 Nissan Leaf, page CH-6:

"Normal charging is performed using an 110-240 volt dedicated electrical outlet using the EVSE provided with the vehicle."
Hi Weber- was at an EV conference last 2 days where manufacturers reps (Nissan and Hyundai) both agreed with the 'emergency charger' statement. Also have replaced lots of 3 pin plugs (and caravan type inlets used for inlets on conversions) on other people's EVs. Once I install a type 1 or 2 inlet and a mode 3 EVSE for them, never have issues again.
As newest grannny chargers supplied with latest EVs are lower than earlier ones (at 8 amps-ish now), and batteries have grown from 16 and 24kWh to 64 and beyond, granny chargers would work hard (and would likely be accidentally left behind at home just when you needed it!) Granny charger supplied witn Kona would take 28hrs to do a full charge, as opposed to overnight for a 7kW Mode 3 EVSE.
These are the reasons why I recommend installing a fixed EVSE at home if you can do it. If you can't - buy a spare portable one to leave plugged in at home to reduce the wear and tear on the plug an socket... and leave the emergency one in the boot for emergencies! (BTW: buying a second one vs installing a wall one may not cost much less anyway-the new wiring rules highly recommend fitting a dedicated circuit for 15A outlets intended for EV charging. I.e. it is only the difference in materials cost for a Mode 2 or Mode 3 EVSE between the choices).
Cheers
Bryce
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Re: Home charging

Post by brendon_m » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 11:08

I was under the impression that all 15a sockets had to be on their own breaker wiring and that piggy backing etc wasn't allowed. I did hear that for EVs you need to now over size the wiring because they draw so much for so long.

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Re: Home charging

Post by weber » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 12:44

brendon_m wrote:
Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 11:08
I was under the impression that all 15a sockets had to be on their own breaker wiring
Whether that's required or not, depends on the "diversity factor" of the loads to be connected to those 15 A sockets.

However all sockets used for charging EVs must be on their own breaker, because, unlike household appliances, there is no diversity with EV charging. Every socket may be in use at its full current at the same time, for a long time.
and that piggy backing etc wasn't allowed.
Not sure what you mean by this.
I did hear that for EVs you need to now over size the wiring because they draw so much for so long.
False.

Circuit breaker and cable sizing for EV charging is no different from any other load. Circuit breaker and cable sizing always has to consider the maximum continuous current (and possible surge currents). You first size the breaker so it won't trip in normal operation, then you size the cable so it will be protected by that breaker, considering the thermal environment of the cable, and the temperature rating of its insulation (according to AS3008 or AS3000 appendix C). You also have to consider voltage drop, but that's not usually an issue unless you're running more than 30 metres.
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Re: Home charging

Post by brendon_m » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 13:00

I'm not a 240v sparky, I'm just going by what I've heard/read

By piggy backing I mean you can't have a 15a socket and just add a second next it without running an extra cable to the meter box to its own breaker

In terms of the wire size, this article https://reneweconomy.com.au/new-rules-t ... -nz-86060/
Is where I read it.
What they say is for a 15a circuit (which is normally on a 15a breaker with 2.5mm wire) to be used as a EV charge point it should have cabling rated to 20a (3mm?)

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Re: Home charging

Post by weber » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 13:44

brendon_m wrote:
Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 13:00
In terms of the wire size, this article https://reneweconomy.com.au/new-rules-t ... -nz-86060/
Is where I read it.
What they say is for a 15a circuit (which is normally on a 15a breaker with 2.5mm wire) to be used as a EV charge point it should have cabling rated to 20a (3mm?)
You've misinterpreted it. You simply can't install a 15 A outlet for EV charging any more. The minimum is a 20 A outlet. And so of course you need a breaker and wiring that can handle at least 20 A.

I had two 32 A outlets installed for EV charging at my home many years ago, each on its own 32 A RCBO (using 6 mm² cable).
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Re: Home charging

Post by brendon_m » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 16:32

Oh yeah I see it now, it does actually say wiring AND power point. :oops:

But on that note I find it interesting that in order to run a 2.4kw (10a) device you need to run wiring capable of 20a. Almost as if the wiring code was skimping all along and only now needs to be upgraded because of EVs.

In the automotive world it's standard to run wires larger then required in order to prevent volt drop and cables getting warm.
If I need to run a 5a device in the back of a car (like a fridge) I generally run wires good for 50a just to stop low voltage cutoffs etc.
If you lose a volt or 2 from 240v it doesn't really matter, but from 12v? Stuff stops working pretty fast.

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Re: Home charging

Post by weber » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 16:49

brendon_m wrote:
Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 16:32
But on that note I find it interesting that in order to run a 2.4kw (10a) device you need to run wiring capable of 20a.
That is true, in the case of EV charging with a portable EVSE.
Almost as if the wiring code was skimping all along and only now needs to be upgraded because of EVs.
Not at all! Because you are then allowed to run up to a 4.6 kW (20 A) portable EVSE (or other 20 A device) on that 20 A wiring.

I think it is just future-proofing.
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Re: Home charging

Post by reecho » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 20:03

antiscab wrote:
Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 13:02
wait - why are they saying the cable is worth $500 - $600?

they're $200:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3302384 ... b201603_53

can you opt out of buying anything from nissan at all? just take $500-$600 off the cost of the car?
22Kw 7m genuine Mennekes Type 2 cables were $305 direct from Tesla AU. High quality at a good price...

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Re: Home charging

Post by FalconSMG » Thu, 29 Aug 2019, 10:42

reecho wrote:
Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 20:03
antiscab wrote:
Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 13:02
wait - why are they saying the cable is worth $500 - $600?

they're $200:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3302384 ... b201603_53

can you opt out of buying anything from nissan at all? just take $500-$600 off the cost of the car?
22Kw 7m genuine Mennekes Type 2 cables were $305 direct from Tesla AU. High quality at a good price...
Direct from Tesla means ?if you buy a Tesla and that's what they charge or something you can order directly-I can't find anywhere to order it

Ta

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Re: Home charging

Post by reecho » Thu, 29 Aug 2019, 18:41

FalconSMG wrote:
Thu, 29 Aug 2019, 10:42
reecho wrote:
Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 20:03
antiscab wrote:
Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 13:02
wait - why are they saying the cable is worth $500 - $600?

they're $200:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3302384 ... b201603_53

can you opt out of buying anything from nissan at all? just take $500-$600 off the cost of the car?
22Kw 7m genuine Mennekes Type 2 cables were $305 direct from Tesla AU. High quality at a good price...
Direct from Tesla means ?if you buy a Tesla and that's what they charge or something you can order directly-I can't find anywhere to order it

Ta
A fellow AEVA member and Tesla owner hooked me up. I haven't checked current pricing though..

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