PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Sat, 13 Oct 2018, 16:27

@Vissie and @coulomb, your recent posts about Voltronic InfiniSolar Inverters have been moved to the Voltronic InfiniSolar Inverters thread.
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Re: LG Chem Resu 10 with PIP-4048MS

Post by djonexx » Sat, 13 Oct 2018, 19:22

So as promised I am back with details on LG Ghem Resu 10 working togheter with the PIP 4048 MS.

First a few notes about the LG Chem RESU 10 - it requires CAN communication with a compatible inverter. Some guys here have reverse engineered the communication protocol and with a few dollars of hardware and many hours of tinkering around I got it working. For the communication module I used an Arduino Nano with a MCP2515 CAN bus module. The data is then stored on the Arduino and read from my Raspberry PI that monitors the inverters. The battery also requires to periodically receive a keep-alive frame on the CAN bus or it will shutdown itself in about 10 minutes.

The parameters I'm using are:

[05] Battery Type: USE
[12] Battery To Utility Voltage: 50 V
[13] Utility To Battery Voltage: 51 V
[26] Bulk Voltage: 57.0 V
[27] Float Voltage: 57.0 V
[29] Cut-off Voltage: 49 V
[32] Bulk Charging Time: 60 minutes

The LG's BMS reports the limits of 57.7 V for the charging voltage, and around 90-99A for the max charging current. For now I'm happy with the slightly lower limit of 57.0 V and that charges the battery to about 95%, and I plan to implement the current limiting with the "Dynamic Current Control" feature just to make sure.

I am also a bit unconfortable about the cutoff voltage so I set the B2U voltage higher. The three inverters eat up about 150 W from the battery even in Utility mode when the charger is set to Solar Only, and that adds up quickly to about 1.8 KWh in 12 hours. So about 20% of the 9.8KWh nominal battery capacity must be reserved for this, or it will trip itself if gets too discharged.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 07:28

My inverters read the AC voltages 3 volts higher than actual as its all of them (6) has anybody checked to see if they have the same
and can this be changed to be accurate?

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 13:04

paulvk wrote:
Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 07:28
My inverters read the AC voltages 3 volts higher ... can this be changed to be accurate?
No, not without hardware modifications. The scale of the currents can be adjusted with undocumented commands, but not the voltages. There are voltage scale factors, but they are never changed.

[ Edit: added "not without hardware modifications". ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 19:39

paulvk wrote:
Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 07:28
My inverters read the AC voltages 3 volts higher than actual as its all of them (6) has anybody checked to see if they have the same
and can this be changed to be accurate?
If they were all similar we could add a patch. But alas, I have one PIP reading 245 V and the other 247 V while the Fluke 87 III reads 246 V, all on the same AC.
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Re: LG Chem Resu 10 with PIP-4048MS

Post by weber » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 19:47

djonexx wrote:
Sat, 13 Oct 2018, 19:22
So as promised I am back with details on LG Ghem Resu 10 working togheter with the PIP 4048 MS.
Great stuff djonexx! Thanks for letting us know. I look forward to hearing how you go with Dynamic (Charge) Current Control. Dynamic Load Control may also be of interest, to get that no-load battery consumption down, when we get around to implementing it for the PIP-4048MS.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 20:21

I have AC voltage and current meters on the input and output of the inverters so far all are 3 volts out just wondered if this was a common thing
since I know its not a problem if it had been a simple fix I would have tried to do it but will just live with it.
The only thing that bugs me is not having two cut over points for back to grid/generator as the inverters switch back
too quickly eg boil the kettle battery voltage drops they switch back only to come back on when the kettle turns off
this means setting the voltage lower than really wanted.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by charliefd » Thu, 18 Oct 2018, 15:11

Checking in to report 3 and a half month of running version 73.00c without issues on a phased setup of 3x PIP4048MS with LiFePo4:



I love the fact that I can select independently what to display. That allowed me to check on the temperature of the inverters (ICC doesn't give me access to this info). I'm a bit concerned that 2 of the inverters show constantly over 50 deg. C, even close to 60 at times. The 3rd has a louder fan and shows at least 10 degrees less even though it has most of the base-load of the house on it. All 3 inverters have been purchased new, at the same time, commissioned together and obviously share the same ambient temperature.

Here we can see an afternoon where the temperatures left to right are 56,57,44:

Image

Is this normal range for these inverters? Could the fact that the 3rd inverter isn't charging explain all of the >10 degrees difference (it remains so during night time too ...)?

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 10:57

I also found on my units the heat sinks were getting to 50c and above
which does not fair well for long life from the transistors and more so for the capacitors
my solution was two 120mm fans over the vent holes at the sides controlled by a ST-1000 controller with its probe in the
inverter heat sink the fans cut in at 43c and cut out at 36c it never gets above 45c unless the room temp is around 40c

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 13:36

A typical set of temperatures for my inverter is 36/34/41/44 °C for SCC/AC/Battery/Transformer temperatures respectively. Mind you, that's at 23 °C inside, perhaps 25 °C outside. These figures come from the not officially documented Q1 command, and reported by my Node-RED monitoring software on the "Monolith other" tab.

@charliefd, I note that the transformer temperature is often the highest one, and it's the highest reading that is reported by the AussieView™ display and QPIGS command (field 13, just after battery capacity %). It's possible that your third inverter, which reports the lowest temperature, is the outlier; the temperature is as measured by a through-hole thermistor near (10 mm) but not touching the transformer. It could be that this thermistor has somewhat different characteristics to the others, and I doubt that they are calibrated in any way. In fact, I find functions that might allow calibration, but they are never called.

[ Edit: It would seem a good idea to check Q1 on each inverter (there doesn't seem to be an equivalent to the Q1 command that takes a machine number). That way, you can get an idea which part is overheating, and which one seems to be the true outlier. ]

There is checking for the maximum temperature exceeding 60 °C, but it looks like a bug in the firmware causes it to always add 5 °C to the limit, so temperature limiting doesn't happen till 65 °C, that's why the fan speed seems to be mostly dependent on loads. My guess is that the extra 5 °C should only be added if the load is low (5% inverter load or less, and 5 A charge current or less).

[ Edit: added "is reported by AussieView™ display" ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by charliefd » Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 15:47

Thank you guys for providing temperature values that I can compare to and good advice!
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 13:36
A typical set of temperatures for my inverter is 36/34/41/44 °C for SCC/AC/Battery/Transformer temperatures respectively. Mind you, that's at 23 °C ...
I reported those values at 23 °C ambient. Now I'm starting to worry that my inverters wont make it past the 2 year warranty
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 13:36
I note that the transformer temperature is often the highest one, and it's the highest reading that is reported by the AissieView™ display and QPIGS command (field 13, just after battery capacity %).
13th field is always 0 in my case (phased setup)
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 13:36
[ Edit: It would seem a good idea to check Q1 on each inverter (there doesn't seem to be an equivalent to the Q1 command that takes a machine number). That way, you can get an idea which part is overheating, and which one seems to be the true outlier. ]
I'll contact @Manie to see if ICC could issue the Q1 command at least for the master inverter. I guess I could also connect my PI to the other 2 inverters and get all the temperatures locally

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 18:47

charliefd wrote:
Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 15:47
I'll contact @Manie to see if ICC could issue the Q1 command at least for the master inverter. I guess I could also connect my PI to the other 2 inverters and get all the temperatures locally
I thought you might just use something simple and temporary like Scott's CRCGen applet and a comms program set to 2400/N/8/1 if you have a Windows machine handy. Or you could probably whip up something for the Pi if that's more convenient. C source code for the CRC generation is available from this topic's index. The compromise is, the more commands that are sent to the PIPs each data cycle, the slower the overall data cycle becomes. Mine recently degraded from 6 seconds per cycle to 10 seconds per cycle, to cater for those fat cats with their dual inverters :D And you have three inverters to send the Q1 command to. It would be nice if they changed the commands to 9600 bps, as the firmware updates do. [ Edit: Weber pointed out in email that this would not help, it's a latency issue, not a communications speed issue. ]

I've just noticed that QPIGS returns the highest local temperature, i.e. it doesn't consider the SCC temperature. The AussieView™ temperature display also calls the same function, and hence also ignores the SCC temperature. Weber's temperature display code heroically shows a minus sign if the temperature is negative, but alas the original firmware binary search table lookup algorithm is such that it can't return a negative temperature. So we have room to fix this minor oversight, if we get around to it.

But with phased and/or paralleled inverters, ICC would be using the QPGS command, which doesn't have quite the same fields as QPIGS, in particular, it returns no temperatures. It's a nuisance.

[ Edit: more on data cycle blowout; added "in particular, it returns no temperatures". ]
[ Edit: binary search is in the original firmware.]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by aussiefro » Tue, 30 Oct 2018, 01:02

I have been a silent follower of the thread. Many thanks for Coulomb and Weber for the great work here.
I see the manufacturer seems to have listening ears, the King and VM III seems to be very close in features (kWh display, networking port for BMS, Bluetooth connectivity, detachable remote control) to the tier 1 inverters. Is it fair to say that they are ready to stand tall with the Tier 1 inverters

Thanks

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Rick54 » Wed, 31 Oct 2018, 19:06

Good morning,

i have been reading your post since 2 years. I am very impressed of what you are capable of. Thank you very much for all of you (especially Coulomb and Weber). Many thanks.
I noticed that now i can use the setting 38 with new firmware to be able to join a "grounding box" to the dry contact of my inverter to be able to have a safe system in my house when the inverter is switching from Utility to Solar or battery.
On the new generation of inverter it's done inside but i think that on mine it will be done on the dry contact.
Here is an example of ground box to avoid a floating tension of 90volts around between ground and neutral (here in France we need to have around 0 Volt between earth and Neutral)
https://www.wattuneed.com/fr/onduleurs- ... tml#idTab1
But before doing the big jump from my factory software to your homemade software i'd like to ask to the expert if i can do it if you can please.
I ve a U1 : 72.60 U2 :4.10 U3 : 01.06
It has been sold as a WKS 5KVA 48V (brand on the sticker is SUPERWATT)
It is an MPPT 48V can work with WatchPower But i'm using LUCIBUS.
And the user manual provided by my seller in France is the same you provide in this post.
And one last thing i tried to read the post regarding of what i need to plug (battery/solar/utility) to do the update but didn't understand what need to be on the inverter.

I wish you a good day and i put some pictures at the end of my post.

Regards

(English is not my language so i apology in advance if i make mistakes)

Here is few pictures to help.
Image
Image
Image

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 08:50

Rick54 wrote:
Wed, 31 Oct 2018, 19:06
Good morning,
Welcome!
On the new generation of inverter it's done inside but i think that on mine it will be done on the dry contact.
Yes, that's right.
Here is an example of ground box to avoid a floating tension of 90volts around between ground and neutral ...
It looks fine, in fact, designed for these inverters.
But before doing the big jump from my factory software to your homemade software i'd like to ask to the expert if i can do it if you can please.
I ve a U1 : 72.60 U2 :4.10 U3 : 01.06
Yes, I think that's fine. I assume that the U3 version number is for the remote display.
It has been sold as a WKS 5KVA 48V (brand on the sticker is SUPERWATT)
It certainly looks like a genuine Voltronic Power inverter-charger.
And one last thing i tried to read the post regarding of what i need to plug (battery/solar/utility) to do the update but didn't understand what need to be on the inverter.
Just run it on battery power, with AC isolated (in and out) and PV isolated (disconnected).
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Rick54 » Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 15:06

Hello and thank you very much Coulomb for your answer.
I ll do that this week end with only batteries connected.
I read on other posts that there is an error90 for some inverters. Is mine can be blocked by this error with the 73 firmware.?
Or do I need to do the 72.70 ?

Regards

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 16:53

Rick54 wrote:
Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 15:06
I read on other posts that there is an error90 for some inverters. Is mine can be blocked by this error with the 73 firmware.?
With your older hardware (not as old as mine), the only way you'll get error 90 is if you use factory firmware 73.00 or later, or if you use the now-obsolete patched firmware version 73.00a.

Fault code 90 won't occur with patched firmware version 73.00c/d/e, which many people including myself are running. There are ways of knowing if it's coming, and we know it's not.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Rick54 » Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 17:53

Great !!!!
Thank you very much.
I ll let you know once firmware will be patched.
Have a good day.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Sat, 03 Nov 2018, 08:11

Release Version of Patched Firmware 73.00d for some PF0.8 models

[Edit: This has been superceded. Please see the Firmware section of the first post of this topic to find the latest patched firmware for your machine.]
[Edit: On 2-Dec-2018 we replaced beta 73.00d here, with release 73.00d. The only change was the first letter of the version number (from B to L). This was after 1 month and 19 downloads for each chemistry, with zero bug reports.]

This is the fourth version of our patched firmware based on factory firmware version 73.00 for the PIP-4048MS and equivalents. This patched firmware has all the same patches as 73.00c and earlier patched firmwares, including Dynamic (Charge) Current Control and AussieView™. This includes fixing the infamous premature float bugs.

In addition, 73.00d makes the following improvements:

1. We have added Dynamic Load Control. This is a pair of serial commands (MNCHGC0497 and MNCHGC0498). The first forces an inverter into standby mode (disconnecting it from its AC loads and reducing its battery consumption to 15 watts or less), and the second returns it to normal operation. See the Dynamic Current and Load Control manual.

2. For the LFP version only: We have reduced the minimum tail current to go from absorb to float charging stage (when absorb time [32] is set to "Aut") from 5 A per machine to 3 A per machine. The tail current threshold is calculated by summing the maximum total charge current settings [02] for all parallel machines and (in the LFP firmware) dividing it by 12, but with a minimum value as described.


Note: This firmware is only suitable for the 48 V models with a single low-voltage MPPT and a power factor of 0.8 (4 kW / 5 kVA), not those with dual or triple MPPTs or a power factor of 1.0 (5 kW / 5 kVA), and not those with a maximum PV array open circuit voltage greater than 145 V DC.

For lithium ferrous phosphate (LFP) (16S or 15S)
dsp_LF1_73.00d.zip
(1.54 MiB) Downloaded 46 times

For lead acid (24S), lithium cobalt-blends (LCO, NMC, NCM, NCA) (14S), and lithium titanate (LTO) (21S)
dsp_LC1_73.00d.zip
(1.54 MiB) Downloaded 65 times

For reflashing instructions see the 72.70b reflashing instructions, but ignore the zip files there.

It should go without saying that you use this at your own risk.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Sat, 03 Nov 2018, 10:27

"that respectively force an inverter into standby mode"
Can units in parallel be shut down say one of a pair.
What happens with paralleled units if the load goes up will the standbys come back on?

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Sat, 03 Nov 2018, 11:16

paulvk wrote:
Sat, 03 Nov 2018, 10:27
Can units in parallel be shut down say one of a pair.
Yes indeed. :) As it says in the manual: "The zero in these commands can be changed to any digit from 0 to 8, being the number of the machine to which the command is addressed".

The MNCHGC<m>497 command is equivalent to turning off the switch at the bottom of inverter <m>, and the MNCHGC<m>498 command is equivalent to turning it back on again, with two qualifications:
1. The physical switch must be on.
2. An inverter will never power off completely, after the serial command, as it will when the physical switch is off and there is no incoming AC or PV.
What happens with paralleled units if the load goes up will the standbys come back on?
No. That would need to be done by external software. Such software could easily be created using the Node-Red visual programming tool running on a Raspberry Pi or Beaglebone-Black and communicating with any one of the inverters. @Monkeytom suggests setting the threshold for telling the next inverter to connect to the loads, at about 60% load (as reported by a QPIGS or QPGS<m> command), then leaving it for half an hour after the most recent drop below the same power level, before putting that inverter back in standby mode.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by erland82 » Mon, 05 Nov 2018, 00:25

Hello
I have been looking at the PIPs for my off grid cabin.

Remote monitoring is a must, it can be months between visits. I have a 4g router with wifi and 4 rj45 ports.

I wonder if the Operating/Storage Temp on the Pip is going to be a problem.

We often get -20c in the winter, maybe even colder at times.

I thought of building an isolated box with temp regulated fans and silicone conformal coat the PCBs.

This is my system atm.
Image

[ Edited Coulomb: fixed image, removed <br/>]
Tesla Model X100D 2017
Nissan Qashqai+2 4wd 2013
Mazda 323 GTX 4wd 1990
Peugeot 205 1,9 Gti 1988 (restoration not complete)

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Mon, 05 Nov 2018, 05:56

Hello erland82
Remote monitoring is easy to do by using a RS232 to TCPIP HLK RM04 module
no programming knowledge required they are ready built just need a box and 5volts
I use them for my two systems that are 250Km apart so I can monitor both
from either location , settings can also be changed.
Would the temperature get that low where the units would be
they should be installed in fully protected area with good ventilation
they are not sealed against the environment
Batteries have problems at that low temperature.

Looking at your diagram the ML4860 has RS232 the HLK RM-04 has two ports for RS232
so you can monitor both with it.
If you get a HLK RM-04 now you can remotely monitor/control the ML4860 now
Also the HLK RM-04s can connect unit to unit creating RS232 > TCPIP -------- TCPIP > RS232 link

They are also have a wifi access point and router built in.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by erland82 » Mon, 05 Nov 2018, 23:13

Hello Paul
Thanks for your reply.

My batteries are in an isolated concrete box dug a 1 meter down into the ground.
It has a stable temp, usually 15c-10c in the summer, never under -5c in the winter. (Best i can do)

I am going use my ML 4860 and a Reliable Electric 3000w inverter as a backup system.

Is there any conformal coating on the PIPs PCBs?
I am concerned about condensation if the temp is to low.

Can I start and stop the Pip inverting 230v remotely? And still charge the batteries?
If I can, i will hook up a small heater and preheat the main cabin before arrival winter time.
Tesla Model X100D 2017
Nissan Qashqai+2 4wd 2013
Mazda 323 GTX 4wd 1990
Peugeot 205 1,9 Gti 1988 (restoration not complete)

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Rick54 » Tue, 06 Nov 2018, 04:48

Good morning,

i just did the update with the 73d Firmware.
Everything is working well with the inverter but it seems that the remote display is still displaying the old menu (i.e. : no 38 option or old names displayed ...) but the inverter (in my cave...) is displaying the good menu and aussieview.

Did i do something wrong ? Do i need to reflash the inverter ?

I think as well that my WatchPower software is too old compare to the new software(Ver1.10.sp2). Is there a place to find an earlier one ?

Regards

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