i-MiEV Range *no discussion*

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Johny
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Post by Johny » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 16:08

I can't imagine that re-calibrating once a year is a reasonable guess at iMiev behaviour. It would depend on temperature etc. and would mean that the SOC and RR could be out by a bit for the last 3 months before recal.
I don't think they do that IMO.
It would be a continuous accumulating heuristic-based calculation - again IMO.
It does look like Mitsu have adopted a different technique than LEAF though. In the LEAF, Nissan show the long-term battery capacity on an outer smaller gauge and the SOC on the inner larger gauge.
Probably a mistake on Nissan's part - to make it so obvious to the user that the pack is losing capacity.
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Edit: I meant CAN'T
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Post by acmotor » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 17:08

It is likely that an iMiEV charged off 110V 10A (1.1kW) uses more power for a recharge than an iMiEV charged off 240V 13A (3.3kW) as discussed elsewhere charger effectively and cooling pump etc. However 18.5 kWh may be OTT.
Just remind me Kurt, what kWh from the wall plus remaining bars ( humour me 1 kWh ea. ) do you see ?

I'd be thinking that the iMiEV re calibrates every charge from less than 20%, yes as per handbook.
It may be that Nissan expects more degradation than mitsi, as has been seen in some hot locations. In Oz they offered only 3 year warranty. Extendable at a cost to 5 year. A scare factor for me.
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Post by Johny » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 17:21

acmotor wrote:It may be that Nissan expects more degradation than mitsi, as has been seen in some hot locations.
I think this is wishful thinking on the part of iMiev owners - similar chemistry. Nissan just shouldn't have put the capacity degradation right in front of the users face. Maybe have to press a button or two to locate it.

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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 18:17

Similar chemistry is the key .

It only takes small tweeks in the recipe to change how they react to heat.

Put the capacity change guage high and centered why hide it? If its changing I want to know about it and perhaps change my habits to improve it. that's like having a oil pressure gauge and hiding it.

Capacity loss is the most important part of OEM ev ownership at least once it reaches the point where the car didn't serve it's purpose anymore.

Kurt
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Post by g4qber » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 20:26

Warranty on leaf batt in oz is now 5 yearshttp://ozleaf.proboards.com/thread/343/ ... y-coverage
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Post by Malm » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 22:42

Battery off the Leaf has the same chemistry but not the same electrolyte. In Portugal there are many Leafs, I know many and some had lost 2 of the 12 bars, that means more then 20% degradation. In 3 years.
I believe that Nissan Leaf battery is more susceptible to heat. 25 ºC will mean, in the Leaf, 5% degradation year by year. In an i-MiEV 2 or 3%.
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Post by Malm » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 22:45

"I can't imagine that re-calibrating once a year is a reasonable guess at iMiev behaviour. It would depend on temperature etc. and would mean that the SOC and RR could be out by a bit for the last 3 months before recal."

I can imagine because in February I was getting out of charge with 14,5% of SoC.
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 22:57

So your saying you were driving along monitoring with canion and when canion read 14.5% your car shutdown and wouldn't move?

Was this one time or several times?

I'm sure others would see this every year also. No one has reported it.

Ok here is a anther strange thing I notice. Often when charging I look inside the car at the energy meter to see how many bars I have. Lets say I look in and there is 8 bars. Now I am happy with that charge level so I turn the charger off. As soon as I turn the charger off the gauge jumps up one bar to show 9 bars. Put the key in the ignition and turn on gauge shows 9 bars. It's very repeatable it's like turning the charger off activates a extra bar than what was showing live before the charger was switched off.

The energy meter has a mind of its own . I will see if I can catch this behavior on video.

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Post by Malm » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 23:04

In the Leaf the 12 bar gauge that reflects capacity is using the value of Ahr that the i-MiEV also calculate. One day we will have means to see how it changes day by day with same application, maybe canion. Just have to wait for that day. In march my value was 36,4 Ahr, less then 27% of the initial 50 Ahr (they are suppose to have at new).

In myimiev.com, I saw 5 russian i-MiEVs with one year, low milaege, some off them always outdoor and values of remaining capacity of 42 Ahr. One more time, not getting correctly their remaining capacity, cold is shrinking it.
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Post by g4qber » Wed, 25 Jun 2014, 00:44

offgrid, I also get the jump up a bar effect. however after driving a few hundred meters down the road, that bar quickly disappears so that the original bar level before turnoff may be the correct level.
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Post by Malm » Wed, 25 Jun 2014, 01:20

"So your saying you were driving along monitoring with canion and when canion read 14.5% your car shutdown and wouldn't move?

"Was this one time or several times?

I'm sure others would see this every year also. No one has reported it."

Yes, several times (before it recalculated is capacity). Now it will stop only with less then 5%, most of the times 0,0%."

To stop with 14,5%, like happened to me before, is very rare. I only know another i-MiEV in the all world (and I know many) that can have that behavior. But it should not have the rate of degradation of mine, so I think he will never stop before turtle. To do that, to stop with 14,5% SoC, the car that do that can easily show you a mRR over 170 km. Mine did that, until february, not anymore since it recalculated is capacity.

There are many things that are special in me and my i-MiEV. We touched all the limits possible, most of the times without knowing that we were doing that, otherwise we wouldn't do it, for sure.

The bar extra after the charging. Normal, normal, normal. Why? Simple. From 80,5% of SoC to 80% you lose one bar when driving (14 bars to 13 bars). So 80,5% SoC will be 14 bars. But when charging (in my car and ONLY when charging) the 14 bar will only appear at 84% SoC (the bars appear when charging +4% then they disappear when discharging). So, if you are charging and stop at 82%, you will have only 13 bars. But 82% is 14 bars, so when you start the car, it will show you the 14 bars (not the 13). That´s way most of the times the first bar to charge takes so long.

But interestingly, to recharge in movement (not plugged, just regeneration) it will not need +4% to give you another bar, only +2%. If you have 78% and 13 bars, you need to create 4% SoC to get the 14 bars.

After this, maybe i'm revealing my identity. The Mitsubishi engineer that you all are asking for...   Image Image Image
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 25 Jun 2014, 04:41

Yes, I have seen the 13 bars when charging replaced by 14 bars when started.

I don't get in a knot about the energy meter, RR meter etc. I just drive the vehicle ;)
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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 15:57

Ok,
   Back to the point on how many kwh a new battery can consume from the wall to replenish it from empty (yes I agree Acmotor that charge rate plays a part due to base loads while charging)That said if your using the same charge rate in your comparisons it should be fine. temperature while yur recharging would determine how often the coolant pump runs but at 70W consumption and cycling its not a big error.

Looking back over some posts I noticed this one from carnut in Tasy.

"
Anyhow, turtle came on when I was about 5 km from home....all good until the last steep pinch to my house when it just said no.......
Little brother to the rescue, tow the last few hundred metres and put it on charge.

18.6 kWh from properly empty to fill"

So from this I guess that's at least two people that think it takes 18.5 - 18.6 kwh to refill a Imiev from dead empty. The 18.6kwh example is a 3.3kw charge rate on a 2010 model to.

I have never seen anything that high from the wall. I think 16kwh is what I had with first test on canion (car with less than 1000km on it). Based on 12kwh from the wall at 34% SOC.

How accurate are the little wall plug energy meters are could play a part. Is there any kind of loads that make them play up? From what I can see (comparing it to the reading on my calibrated shunt's in my off grid system they are matching the readings. A simple test plugging 3 of them into each other they all agree on the load.

Kurt



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Post by reecho » Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 21:44

I'm showing regular 115kms RR when i set off most mornings....Not bad for a nearly 4 year old I-Miev...

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 22:09

The thing with the RR meter is its a assumption calculated on the last 25k or so of driving. Unless you are going to be doing identical driving under the same conditions for the remainder of the battery's capacity it's not a good indication of range.

I had 154km com up on mine the other day but I was just pottering around the suburbs 50-60-70kph area for the last 25km. So it gave me a high number.

So my RR number varies from 80km to 154km so up to 100% more depending on the last 25km. I guess you could take the middle and say 120 is a more realistic (to empty range)

Would be interesting to see what your kwh from wall was if you can get it on charge as soon (or close to) as it reaches 2 bars back up to full.

Kurt

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Post by Malm » Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 22:42

Personally, I´m a believer:
- in the 18,5/18,6 kWh number;
- that the 18,5 kWh number means 16 kWh in the battery (86,5% efficiency in charging, very reasonable);
- that the battery when new lose a significant percentage of the capacity rapidly (maybe 5% in 2 or 3 months);
- that temperatures are important, and at 10 ºC it will charge significantly less that at 30º C (a difference between 5 to 10%).

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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 00:29

" that temperatures are important, and at 10 ºC it will charge significantly less that at 30º C (a difference between 5 to 10%)."

. I put the car on charge today from 2 bars 21.5% on Canion .At 2230w charge rate. The car consumed 13.3kwh to reach 100% . So 13.3kwh + 21.5% = 16.16kwh. Temperature in the garage was around 15C cells temps around 25C.

RR gauge was showing 146km

I guess this assumes Canion is correct with its 21.5%

10% difference between 10C and 30C is a lot are you sure. Is that battery temp or ambient air temp.

Kurt
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Post by Malm » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 00:36

What is important is the temperature of the cells, not the room temperature. Offgrid, can you tell me what is the value of one bar (don't forget, a 5 % bar) seen off the wall and by Canion? The value is the 0,88 kWh that I predict, more or less 1 kWh from the wall? And g4bqer, can you confirm this values too? And acmotor, can you confirm that your values are not so high, but higher then mines? (my values - 0,64 kWh).
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 00:48

You want me to note the % number on cannon as every bar is taken away on the gauge?

Boy thats going to take some messing around as I drive to catch it each time a bar is gone . I will do my best to try.

" (don't forget, a 5 % bar)"

Sorry 5% bar?

Kurt



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Post by Malm » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 00:57

Yes, a 5% bar. The bars don´t value the same energy. The last to charge (16) will value 8% of SOC,, so has more energy and let us do more milaege. The fifteen value 7%. The sixteen 5%. Bars who value 5% are 1,2,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14.

I suggest that when charging, you reset the canion when one of this bars appear, and see how must charge it take until show the next one.

It's not new, I wrote this before: All the bars don´t mean the same energy (16 bar - 8% SoC, 15 bar - 7%, 14 bar - 5%, 13 bar - 5%, 12 bar - 5%, 11 bar - 5%, 10 bar - 5%, 9 bar - 5%, 8 bar - 5 %, 7 bar - 5%, 6 bar - 5%, 5 bar - 6%, 4 bar - 6%, 3 bar - 6%, 2 bar - 5%, 1 bar - 5%, -- - 2% and turtle - 10%).

In every journey it will be like this, no matter what. Always the same, always the same.

I´m feeling that most of you don´t understand most of the things that I write . Image
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 02:26

I understand 100% what what your saying and yes I did take note the 1st time you mentioned your finding on (soc% canion vs 16 bar divisions) some time ago.

I was just wanted to clarify what you wanted me to test this time.


Going from 100% I drove a little tonight . 16th bar = 92% so (8%) 15 bar = 85% so (7%) Yes it's matching your findings so far. Tomorrow I will confirm they match all the way down to 1 bar but I am sure they will.

Just thinking a good addition to the Canion app could be a alarm sound that beep every time you get to a set % SOC It would be nice it if could be set to match the SOC numbers that aline with each bar. This way as each bar is removed we get a beep!

Yes I will take note of how many KWH in canion and from wall meter for a (5% bar) tomorrow.

Kurt
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Post by Malm » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 03:08

To Ceaser what belongs to Caeser. Correlation between SoC and bars when descharging is not my fiding. I saw it in myimiev.com. Maybe a little diference on turtle only.

Thank you. Now I feel you are playing the same game.
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Post by Malm » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 03:10

And %SoC in Canion is equal to %SoC in the car. I'm sure.
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Post by adelaide-ev » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 06:59

Malm wrote: Correlation between SoC and bars when descharging is not my fiding. I saw it in myimiev.com. Maybe a little diference on turtle only.


Yes, I saw that too on mymiev.com and can confirm it appears to be correct for my car.

I don't have canion but the Fast Charger at Mitsubishi shows SOC % continuously whilst charging and I have watched the bars and percentage SOC match up with those figures while my car charged there (out of curiosity - the things ev drivers find amusing!).

They certainly match up to the 82% SOC mark, which is where the fast charger always shuts off. That 82% is 14 bars (barely) and by the time I leave the Mitsubishi carpark and drive back onto South Rd (couple of hundred metres) the gauge has always dropped back to 13 bars. So a fast charge for me is always a very full 13 bars-just under 82%.

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Post by carnut1100 » Tue, 01 Jul 2014, 00:09

offgridQLD wrote: Ok,
   Back to the point on how many kwh a new battery can consume from the wall to replenish it from empty (yes I agree Acmotor that charge rate plays a part due to base loads while charging)That said if your using the same charge rate in your comparisons it should be fine. temperature while yur recharging would determine how often the coolant pump runs but at 70W consumption and cycling its not a big error.

Looking back over some posts I noticed this one from carnut in Tasy.

"
Anyhow, turtle came on when I was about 5 km from home....all good until the last steep pinch to my house when it just said no.......
Little brother to the rescue, tow the last few hundred metres and put it on charge.

18.6 kWh from properly empty to fill"

So from this I guess that's at least two people that think it takes 18.5 - 18.6 kwh to refill a Imiev from dead empty. The 18.6kwh example is a 3.3kw charge rate on a 2010 model to.

I have never seen anything that high from the wall. I think 16kwh is what I had with first test on canion (car with less than 1000km on it). Based on 12kwh from the wall at 34% SOC.

How accurate are the little wall plug energy meters are could play a part. Is there any kind of loads that make them play up? From what I can see (comparing it to the reading on my calibrated shunt's in my off grid system they are matching the readings. A simple test plugging 3 of them into each other they all agree on the load.

Kurt




That's a nominal 3.3 kW charge rate, but I have not seen more than 3kW actual pull when plugging in.
Usually when I plug in it pulls about 2.95 or thereabouts for a few minutes then settles down to about 2.7-2.8 and as it gets close to full the charge tapers down until when the last bar is up there are only a few hundred Watts being used.
It will then ramp down to 4 or 5 Watts and sit on that until it's unplugged.

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