10kW Motorbike Conversion

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

Hi Everybody,

I am in the process to convert a 250cc Kawasaki motorbike into a 10kW EV.
I got the bike, a 10kW Golden Motor motor and a 72V (VEC500) controller from the same company (...is not the best, I know, I know).
I also have purchased a Lithium battery bank (Winston) 72V/90Ah....24 cells actually.

The plan is to attach the motor to the rear swing arm (keeping the distance motor and rear wheel axle constant) and use a belt drive (Gates Polychain) system.
So far so good, I also got a list of Certifying Engineers from RMS (I am in Coonabarabran/NSW) but everyone I contacted either did not reply, was not interested or sounded like a rip-offerer. So do members know a good guy who is happy to assist in getting the bike certified at reasonable rates?
I am an Electronics Engineer and have a complete workshop available so the engineering is basically covered....it is just the certifying bit.
Surely there should be someone in Sydney/Newcastle or similar.

Thanks,
Martin
User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 4701
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.
Contact:

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by jonescg »

Hi Martin,
The motor on the swingarm is a well travelled route. If you can make it fit I think it will work quite well. The battery though - a little bulky for the energy stored, but the right price I guess. At least with the motor out of the way you should be able to fit them. Otherwise you could go for a 10 kW hub motor and that would free up a lot more room for batteries in the chassis.
I hope there will be a NSW member who can chime in about RTA certification and approval.
AEVA National President, returning WA branch chair.
antiscab
Senior Member
Posts: 3178
Joined: Mon, 26 Nov 2007, 05:39
Real Name: Matthew Lacey
Location: Perth, WA

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by antiscab »

I was under the impression the certifying engineer just had to be a full member of engineers Australia?

Could you not just sign it off yourself?
Matt
2023 BYD Atto 3 - 21k km
2017 Renault zoe - 147'000km
2012 Leaf - 101'000km - soon to be trialing a booster battery
2007 Vectrix - 197'000km (retired)
2007 Vectrix - 50k km
User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by Richo »

Seems he can't...
DEPT Transport IB-102R wrote: An engineering signatory who certifies a motor vehicle with respect to its construction or
modification must:
• personally inspect the vehicle; and
• ensure that any construction or modification of a vehicle complies with the
requirements of the Road Traffic (Vehicles) Regulations 2014 and where applicable,
the appropriate Australian Design Rules; and
• issue a comprehensive engineering report, which satisfactorily addresses any
concerns raised by officers from the VSS.
Signatories recognised by the VSS will generally have demonstrable experience in the
automotive industry and are members of one of the engineering organisations:
• “Engineers Australia” (formerly called the Institution of Engineers Australia), or
• The Society of Automotive Engineers, Australasia (SAE-A) - Automotive Signatory
Group.
This will determine what work that they are eligible to perform.
Membership of “Engineers Australia” is not the only criterion used to ascertain an individual’s
suitability to be an engineering signatory and people who have extensive experience in their
specific areas of work may appear on this list. It should be understood that few signatories, if
any, could offer consultation services for all aspects of automotive design. The client must
be satisfied that a particular signatory is qualified and experienced in the specific area
required before commissioning them.
Professional engineers who are members of “Engineers Australia” are bound by a code of
ethics limiting them to only give advice in areas where they are qualified to do so.
Officers from the VSS may use their discretion on whether to accept an applicant or to debar
an existing engineering signatory, based on a lack of pertinent experience or an
unfavourable record.
Signatories recognised by other state or territory registration authorities are also recognised
by the VSS. Upon request, the VSS may assist in providing a list of engineering signatories
from other states or territories.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

Thanks for your reply,
Hi Martin,
The motor on the swingarm is a well travelled route. If you can make it fit I think it will work quite well.
I
It fits OK.
The battery though - a little bulky for the energy stored, but the right price I guess.
I wanted a Lithium battery and being in regional NSW a range to get to surrounding towns and back.
I also compared the capacity (6.5kWh) with other e-bikes like the Zero and I think I am not too far off the mark.
Back then when I bought it the battery was around $4k....not that cheap.
The bike has a full fairing which I have widened a bit and I also hollowed out the tank so I am fairly OK with design space.
However I have not done a final drawing as I am still fiddeling with the position of the motor.
Otherwise you could go for a 10 kW hub motor and that would free up a lot more room for batteries in the chassis.
Back then when I purchased all the components there was no 10kW motor available....at least I could not find one.
It would have been my preferred solution by far....perhaps you can point me at something suitable?

I hope there will be a NSW member who can chime in about RTA certification and approval.
It is the RMS Road and Maritime Services nowdays......I hope so too.
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

antiscab wrote: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 21:56 I was under the impression the certifying engineer just had to be a full member of engineers Australia?

Could you not just sign it off yourself?
No, I cant.....RMS has a list of certified engineers....trick is to find the right one !
User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 4701
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.
Contact:

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by jonescg »

https://www.qs-motor.com/product/new-10 ... -0x17-rim/

Might be a good place to start. Seems like the voltage range is compatible too?
AEVA National President, returning WA branch chair.
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

jonescg wrote: Tue, 07 Aug 2018, 17:52 https://www.qs-motor.com/product/new-10 ... -0x17-rim/

Might be a good place to start. Seems like the voltage range is compatible too?
Thanks man!
They did not have a 10kW hub motor in a 16 inch rim but an 8kW which I have now ordered in a kit together with a complete rear brake system and a Kelly sine wave controller. It was too convincing space and simplicity wise to not go for it.

So it is now an 8kW conversion only, all your fault :D
mikedufty
Senior Member
Posts: 804
Joined: Tue, 02 Dec 2008, 00:15
Real Name: Michael Dufty
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by mikedufty »

Why not get the 17" rim? it would probably get you a better selection of tyres too. Shouldn't be any problem fitting as the 17" tyres are generally lower profile.

Edit - I see from the ad it is actually a really wide 17" rim, so may have problems fitting in an older 250.
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

mikedufty wrote: Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 09:04 Why not get the 17" rim? it would probably get you a better selection of tyres too. Shouldn't be any problem fitting as the 17" tyres are generally lower profile.

Edit - I see from the ad it is actually a really wide 17" rim, so may have problems fitting in an older 250.
Also the 10kW was just a bit too wide for the swing arm whilst the 8kW fits spot on.

If end up with a top speed of 110-120km/h that would be OK, cruising from A to B would be on 80-90km/h.
antiscab
Senior Member
Posts: 3178
Joined: Mon, 26 Nov 2007, 05:39
Real Name: Matthew Lacey
Location: Perth, WA

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by antiscab »

Top speed would be fairly short lived due to heat buildup. My Vectrix draws 10kw to do 100 -110kmh.

Tricky part is you don't really know until after its built and you've tested it
Matt
2023 BYD Atto 3 - 21k km
2017 Renault zoe - 147'000km
2012 Leaf - 101'000km - soon to be trialing a booster battery
2007 Vectrix - 197'000km (retired)
2007 Vectrix - 50k km
User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 4701
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.
Contact:

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by jonescg »

My 4 kW scooter does 70 km/h, and that's honkin' on bobo. So 8 kW should manage 100 km/h (eventually).
AEVA National President, returning WA branch chair.
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW now 8kw Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

jonescg wrote: Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 15:10 My 4 kW scooter does 70 km/h, and that's honkin' on bobo. So 8 kW should manage 100 km/h (eventually).
See, it all depends on factors like weight and aerodynamics: I have a mountain bike (with street tires) with a 1.5kW motor doing 65Km/h with me (105Kg) folded flat on the bike.

The 250 Kawasaki is a small and lightweight bike with a full fairing so I think it will go OK.
The manufacturer of the hub motor recons 110-120km/h should be possible.
I know of an existing conversion using the 10kW motor I had originally and the owner (Italian guy.....I know from my 850 Moto Guzzi that they are very optimistic) claimed a top speed of 145 Km/h.

Time will tell....So back to the original question for you NSW people:
Is there such a silence because no one had made any positive experiences with RMS certifying engineers?
soyachips
Groupie
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon, 04 Aug 2008, 05:44
Real Name: Andrew Lo
Location: Sydney

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by soyachips »

Hi Martin,

Did you manage to find a certifying engineer? I'm thinking of doing a motorbike conversion but want to check what's possible before buying a donor chassis.

Thanks!
Andrew
User avatar
TerryMulhern
Noobie
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 20:37
Real Name: Terry Mulhern

Re: 10kW now 8kw Motorbike Conversion

Post by TerryMulhern »

moestrei wrote: Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 17:09
jonescg wrote: Fri, 10 Aug 2018, 15:10 Engineering hw expert
My 4 kW scooter does 70 km/h, and that's honkin' on bobo. So 8 kW should manage 100 km/h (eventually).
See, it all depends on factors like weight and aerodynamics: I have a mountain bike (with street tires) with a 1.5kW motor doing 65Km/h with me (105Kg) folded flat on the bike.

The 250 Kawasaki is a small and lightweight bike with a full fairing so I think it will go OK.
The manufacturer of the hub motor recons 110-120km/h should be possible.
I know of an existing conversion using the 10kW motor I had originally and the owner (Italian guy.....I know from my 850 Moto Guzzi that they are very optimistic) claimed a top speed of 145 Km/h.

Time will tell....So back to the original question for you NSW people:
Is there such a silence because no one had made any positive experiences with RMS certifying engineers?

Hi Martin,

Any updates? Have you tried to contact anyone from AKZ Vehicle Engineering group? They cooperate with Greg Johanson (Motorsport Johanson Brothers).

Terry
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

Thanks Terry !

Yes, I have the bike running and had a permit for one day to test it on the open road.
If I can believe my current readings it will use 4kWh/100km at 90km/h which is much better than expected and should give a range of 180km at that speed.
I found an engineer in Tamworth which is happy to certify (or not) a first meeting is on the 23rd of Jan.
aegidius
Groupie
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:23
Real Name: Giles Puckett
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by aegidius »

How did you get on? Curious about bike conversion in Qld, have been told it is a pretty open-ended process (no standard modification schedules)
Giles.
soyachips
Groupie
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon, 04 Aug 2008, 05:44
Real Name: Andrew Lo
Location: Sydney

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by soyachips »

Hi Martin,

Any chance you could share the name of the certifying engineer you’re using and what the experience has been like? I’m just starting a conversion of a 1989 Yamaha FZR250 using a 6kW hub motor so would love to find out more about your project. Any photos?

Cheers,
Andrew
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

Stuart Larkham of Signature Engineering, Tamworth.

Bike is registered now and running very well....once I work out how to post pics I will upload some photos.
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

Top speed is 110kph limited by the max. rpm of the hub motor.
Consumption is 4-5kWh/100km when doing 70-80kph and range then is more than 120km.
Going faster the consumption jumps up a lot to 7-8kW/100km.
The hub motor is rated 8kW but you cannot put 8kW through it permanently it gets really hot then (wrong rating?).
So it is not possible to go highway speeds and not have trucks piling up behind you.
QS-Motor is releasing liquid cooled hub motors....that would be the way to go.
The heavier hub motor (+11kg to the original wheel) does not cause any issue with ride comfort or road handling.
The battery is monitored with a ZEVA cell monitor. If one cell goes overvolt the charging process gets stopped.
Over/under-volts are displayed in the dash.
Battery balancing is done externally. After a settling in period of a few charge cycles the battery was bottom balanced and is performing well since.
Winston 90Ah battery stays always cool....no matter what I do.
I use only 80% of the rated capacity (90Ah) keeping clear of bottom and top voltages to increase the life of the battery (2.5V -3.8V).

Cost was $10k incl. all fees/ postage and the 3 solar panels the bike gets charged on.
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

boars
Noobie
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri, 06 Apr 2018, 21:24
Real Name: Will
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by boars »

Forgot to comment on here when I watched the video last year.

Nice work :D I had pondered using one of those qs hubs on a bike I have. Maybe I'll toy with the water cooled ones after my current projects are done.

Recognized the area you're riding while shooting down to dubbo recently. Those big planets sure are memorable signs haha

Judging by your recent YouTube comments the bike is still going strong which is good to hear. If you're commuting on those roads how are you dealing with the high speed? It's all 100 through there isn't it? Or got some back roads you can use? Seemed like fairly truck heavy territory, nice part of the world though
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

I live out of town and use the bike mostly for daily business rides into town.
QS-Motors did offer me a 12kW liquid cooled motor as an upgrade, but it was 56 kg and I politely declined.
I'm only for a few km on the Newell Highway and go full speed to avoid trucks piling up behind me or even overtaking me and raining rocks and dirt at me.
So yes, mostly on back roads.
User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 4701
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.
Contact:

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by jonescg »

moestrei wrote: Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 07:11 Top speed is 110kph limited by the max. rpm of the hub motor.
Consumption is 4-5kWh/100km when doing 70-80kph and range then is more than 120km.
Going faster the consumption jumps up a lot to 7-8kW/100km.
The hub motor is rated 8kW but you cannot put 8kW through it permanently it gets really hot then (wrong rating?).
So it is not possible to go highway speeds and not have trucks piling up behind you.
QS-Motor is releasing liquid cooled hub motors....that would be the way to go.
The heavier hub motor (+11kg to the original wheel) does not cause any issue with ride comfort or road handling.
The battery is monitored with a ZEVA cell monitor. If one cell goes overvolt the charging process gets stopped.
Over/under-volts are displayed in the dash.
Battery balancing is done externally. After a settling in period of a few charge cycles the battery was bottom balanced and is performing well since.
Winston 90Ah battery stays always cool....no matter what I do.
I use only 80% of the rated capacity (90Ah) keeping clear of bottom and top voltages to increase the life of the battery (2.5V -3.8V).

Cost was $10k incl. all fees/ postage and the 3 solar panels the bike gets charged on.
Mind if I put this up on Conversionbook(TM)?
https://www.aeva.asn.au/conversionbook/

I'll need some 600x400 pixel images though.
AEVA National President, returning WA branch chair.
moestrei
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 16:52
Real Name: Martin

Re: 10kW Motorbike Conversion

Post by moestrei »

for some reasons I cannot work out how to upload photos.
Post Reply