PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by rhills »

Don't forget there are a number of internet archival sites around too, for example https://archive.org/web/.
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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by tressteleg1 »

Hi Reecho,
Your battery problems are just like what seems to be a limited number of PHEV owners are suffering. Whether it is related directly to cell failure or whether the Battery Maintenance Unit (BMU) is limiting excessively the amount of charge is not quite clear to me.

Nevertheless the fact that Mitsubishi no longer promises 80% of battery life after 8 years should be a concern.

You might be interested to know that under Australian consumer law, if you would not have bought the product if you knew that its performance would be so dismal, in this case premature failing of the battery, then the situation would be considered a Major Failure and you would be entitled to a total refund of the cost of the vehicle. This may or may not apply to you.

Whether this is the motive or not, Mitsubishi is known to be replacing some batteries free of charge and with a further guarantee over at least five years.

I suggest that you be persistent in your pursuit of this matter and hopefully Mitsubishi do the right thing whatever the cure might be.

Sorry I did not reply earlier but I don’t seem to get any emails about postings.

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by mikedufty »

Someone just listed a PHEV on carsales with 200,000km on it. I wonder how the battery is going on that one.
$17k

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by Johny »

mikedufty wrote:
Fri, 30 Nov 2018, 09:54
Someone just listed a PHEV on carsales with 200,000km on it. I wonder how the battery is going on that one.
$17k
Hmm. It would be interesting to take it for a test drive and quietly check with EvBatmon.

Edit: Queensland - it won't be me.

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by coulomb »

Johny wrote:
Fri, 30 Nov 2018, 13:14
Hmm. It would be interesting to take it for a test drive and quietly check with EvBatmon.
Indeed. Or perhaps PHEV Watchdog, as this gentleman uses, from Toowoomba Queensland:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SxFrklQT98

The video is painfully slow. The gist is that after the "cell smoothing procedure", his PHEV had amazing range, actual verified real-world range, and was back to near new condition, with 37.9 Ah of capacity reported (38.0 Ah is the new, nominal capacity). Then the figures started degrading again, and he's back to just over 80% SOH again. But since he actually had good range immediately after the smoothing, it looks like it's the BMS being too cautious and pessimistic. You'd think they've had enough time to get that BMS firmware right by now. Sigh. Or maybe one or more cells is/are getting discharged more than the others (e.g. to run a BMS PCB), and the normal balancing procedure isn't enough to get these cells fully charged after the others are full.

Anyone have any idea what the battery smoothing procedure involves, in a technical sense?

Is it something that someone could do at home over a weekend, say? Or does it require special equipment, and dropping the battery out of the vehicle?

I'm curious because $17k is a near-EV that I could actually afford, but I don't want to buy a load of misery.

[ Edit: added link to PHEV Watchdog site. ]
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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by wanpoh »

look like my battery (2014 PHEV) is pretty bad. :|
2018 03 16 089950km 82.9% 31.5Ah
2018 12 08 102659km 75.3% 28.6Ah
2019 04 07 107768km 71.6% 27.2Ah

Anyone done a BMU reset?

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by antiscab »

A BMU reset won't get your capacity back

107k km is pretty good - how much has been on battery only?
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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by wanpoh »

I believe the degradation calculation is pretty pessimistic. Was hoping the BMU reset will allow me to use the battery to it's full potential.

I have 19288Ah reported as charging through AC. I got 0.5175Ah/km on average so that equal to 38,000km powered by Grid/Solar.
Total current charged & discharged since manufacturing is 101980Ah. I suppose the rest of it is powered by onboard fossil fuel generator/engine.

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by tressteleg1 »

I don’t get any notification when anyone makes a comment to this thread which I started last year so I only come across comments when I happened to look for any new ones.

I watch some of Andy’s videos and both he and a friend of mine have received brand-new batteries, probably with the improved range, free as warranty replacements for the originals. Certainly Andy is already suffering from noticeable degradation despite having all known procedures performed. My friend has not done enough kilometres for any drop to be very noticeable yet.

This proves what I have considered for a very long time – The Battery Monitoring Unit (BMU) is artificially suppressing the amount of charge permitted into the battery at a far greater rate than the battery is actually degrading.

What is surprising and depressing is that Mitsubishi seems totally clueless about this problem and how to fix it. Surely doing a software upgrade of the BMU should bring this nonsense to a close but the engineers at Mitsubishi seem too dense to realise this.

I recently saw a video by a Nissan leaf owner and his battery-only car has done quite a significant milage with only a rather small drop in vehicle range.

My own PHEV which has gone only 32,000 km in 4 1/2 years is now struggling to do a 38 km regular trip which it used to do with quite a few kilometres left over. The car’s battery state as read by a monitoring unit called a DOG a month ago showed battery was down to 77.9 km. The Mitsubishi warranty stated the battery would still have 80% after something like eight years!

Surely there must be other PHEV owners with similar performance drops. I can only presume that they are accepting flagging vehicle range as inevitable even if it is happening far more quickly than it should.

Richard

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by wanpoh »

Hi Richard,

your MY14 now have 77.9% SOH (32,000km)
my MY14 now have 71.6% SOH (107,000km)
both now below the 80% SOH MMA claim.

I wonder if any member in the forum are able to provide data?
do you know any website actually collect these data?

Wan

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by zzcoopej »

wanpoh wrote:
Thu, 25 Apr 2019, 11:58
do you know any website actually collect these data?
Users of our App EvBatMon can upload their PHEV SOH/PMC data to our cloud portal to compare with other owners.
We now have much more data than the graph below from 2016, but it still gives you an idea -

http://evpositive.com/battery-history.html
2010 iMiEV
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Battery App EvBatMon for PHEV & iMiEV iOS(iPhone,iPad)& Android
www.EvPositive.com

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by xphread »

I suspect I might be in this boat too.
Our 14/15 PHEV is often struggling to get 40kms, when I could regularly eek 50+ out of it when we first got it just over 3 years ago. (new)

I feel I have to do a few more tests (and triple check things like tyre pressures with each test) before collecting my pitchfork and starting a march though...

Most recent service stated "battery check done" ..but didn't give any figures/percentages.
I have been meaning to contact the dealer to see if this info is available.

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by Ultralights »

mine is at 80,000Km, and still gets about 45 km summer, 35 winter, if the OP is at about 44,000km, thats when i saw a similar drop in range, and also, worn out tyres.. new set of tyres, range came back!
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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by tressteleg1 »

Unfortunately I cannot find a way to reply directly to each of the three recent posts so I will have to do it this way. Everyone should read all of this as there are overlaps applicable to you all, and no doubt many other PHEV owners.

To WAN, your state of health of 71.6% in a car of this age is clearly well below the 80% promised in the original advertising splurge.
Ande’s Unplugged EV YouTube video site recently did cover his recommendations about how to make a claim. It includes presenting the dealership with a copy of that warranty promise of 80% after eight or whatever years. You should also provide the evidence that the S0H has dropped to whatever it is now under 80%. Obviously you have used some device to come up with your figures.

To XPHread, dealerships seem rather coy in giving the exact figures they see upon checking the state of health of your battery but maybe nobody has been forceful enough in insisting upon a copy before the test is performed. If in fact they refuse, if you don’t already have one of those DOG devices or a friend who can test your car for you, it maybe would be worth the investment. They don’t cost a lot.

To ultralights, obviously a car with new tyres etc will perform better and in extreme climates do better in summer but nevertheless the real answer is to get up to date SOH readings for the car’s battery.

At this stage it seems that Mitsubishi is totally befuddled by these problems even if to some of us all that is required is new software for the BMU (battery monitoring unit) which includes controlling the depth of battery charging.

At this stage Andy mentioned above and a good friend of mine have both been supplied with brand-new batteries but nevertheless it is not taking long for the state of health to be declining to a remarkable degree.

I am on the point of pushing Mitsubishi for a solution and hopefully the response will be a new battery, but that generosity may not last much longer.

Good luck to all of you who decide to press Mitsubishi for a solution.

Richard

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by russ57 »

hello everyone...
i'm new here, but i have had an Outlander phev for a couple of years, and i am very happy with it. however, i am also seeing some degradation.
my dealer said yesterday that the battery is measuring 29.6AH but claims that is only 12% degradation. eithe i dont understand or he needs a new calculator.
anyway, i would appreciate a copy of the 20% degradation screenshots if you are still around rechio

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by tressteleg1 »

At nearly 5 years since purchase and 33,000 km my battery range is down to 77.6% at 29.5 Ah according to a Watchdog check.
I would post the images but can’t see a way to do so with this app using my iPad.

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by reecho »

russ57 wrote:
Tue, 25 Jun 2019, 09:49
hello everyone...
i'm new here, but i have had an Outlander phev for a couple of years, and i am very happy with it. however, i am also seeing some degradation.
my dealer said yesterday that the battery is measuring 29.6AH but claims that is only 12% degradation. eithe i dont understand or he needs a new calculator.
anyway, i would appreciate a copy of the 20% degradation screenshots if you are still around rechio
Ah yeah my PHEV is long gone. Enjoying the Kona now....LOTS...

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by mpev »

Have just purchased 2014 PHEV with 160,000Kms. Getting around 35Kms in winter in Victoria. Not too bad.
Just ordered 'Vgate Icar Pro Bluetooth Obd2 Car Detector' and going to use to see how SOH is via PHEV Dog.
Then like many others will be looking at a method to perform bottom balance and capacity test. Maybe reset also.
Thanks to Andy as his videos have helped paint the picture quite well.

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by avolt »

Hi is there anyone Wrecking a PHEV? i would like to play around with the BMU computer
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http://www.evalbum.com/3325

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by tressteleg1 »

avolt wrote:
Sun, 11 Aug 2019, 20:29
Hi is there anyone Wrecking a PHEV? i would like to play around with the BMU computer


If your problem is dimishing Km range from the battery, check Andy’s Youtube site Unplugged EV with particular attention to the Lindqvist Method which is a very simple and often effective method of resetting the BMU so that the charger puts a full amount of charge into the battery which almost certainly is still in very good condition.

Apparently the problem is within the hardware of the BMU, and cannot be altered with a software update.

Richard.

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by lrobe »

Hi, Thanks for the forum - proving very useful in planning my attack for getting my 2014 PHEV battery sorted out by Mitsubishi.
I live in QLD and have now had my battery tested twice for degradation by the local dealer, results as below.

2014 (0km) 40.0Ah
Nov 2018 (42 157km) 27.6Ah
Nov 2019 (53 062km) 24.7Ah

-> which gets me to 61.75% SOH, and noticeable loss of driving distance over the last 3 years.
My warranty is through to Nov 2020, so even if they arrange a battery smoothing, I am hopeful this will leave enough time for the degradation to "reappear" ...
The local dealer has phoned Mitsubishi Warranty after each of the last 2 checks, and been advised "they are happy with readings and not prepared to replace battery under warranty". The service/workshop staff have handed me the results and "strongly suggested" I take up the matter directly with Mitsubishi Customer care. Implying they think it is unacceptable.
A new battery would be a start, but do I need to push the BMU issue as well? It sounds like Mitsubishi is not actually doing ANYTHING about this issue, but maybe if its the difference between more battery replacements and finding a solution to the issue they might look into it more ...
Anyway, thanks for the information you've all shared here. I'll let you know what my outcome is with Mitsubishi. Just thought I'd share my journey to date to try to help others also.

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by tressteleg1 »

Hi Irobe,

I am sorry to hear that you are having all this trouble. Just today I had my battery replaced free of charge under warranty.

Ever since I bought the car, I kept a logbook of the amount of charge that went into the battery and the resulting range. When new, the battery was accepting more than 9 kWh but by September, it was down to about 7.2 kWh.

I pointed out that this was a drop of more than 20% in a car that was approaching five years of age and that advertising literature had promised 80% life after 10 years of use. There was just a few other points I included in the letter.

The very next day I got a response from Mitsubishi containing several paragraphs of how batteries degrade with age, but the final two sentences said that as an act of goodwill, the battery would be replaced under warranty, but that it will take some weeks to arrive from Japan.

No doubt Andy with his website paved the way when he got a replacement battery, as did a few others who subsequently had their batteries replaced.

Nevertheless the real cause of the problem is a very poor design of the BMU which artificially restricts the amount of charge you can extract from the battery with the passage of time. I suggest you consider using the Lindqvist or other methods of BMU resetting unless you can have a win against MMA.

Good Luck,

Richard

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by lrobe »

Hi all (And Richard, thanks for your reply)
Just to let you know that after 3 phone calls to MMA and a fairly standard initial email response from them stating natural battery degradation was not covered under warranty, I have today had a verbal promise that MMA will replace my battery at their expense. I had relatively little push back, all things considered, but maybe that is a reflection of how poorly my battery has performed. I did raise the issue of BMU performance and they asked for written concerns about this, so I will email them formally with concerns. Thanks everyone here for gathered information which has assisted me with this issue.

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by rhills »

Unfortunately, I've not had time to follow this thread closely so haven't posted earlier. We've had an Outlander PHEV Aspire since brand new, bought one of the first ones sold in WA in April 2014, delivered in May 2014. We had a major problem with our PHEV two and a half years ago (documented here) that eventually resulted in the BMU being replaced. Following the BMU replacement, my reported range on full charge increased immediately from 45 to 60km. As reported in my thread on that issue, the Mitsubishi Dealer that replaced the BMU couldn't explain why that happened. My best guesses are that either they replaced my unit with a 2018 BMU, or as @reecho suggested at the end of my thread, I had a 2014 BMU with updated firmware.

These days, since a battery replacement (different story, documented here), I now see between 66 and 70km on the range guess-o-meter after a full charge and with my grandpa-like driving and avoiding 100km freeways, I find 65km quite achievable without starting up the motor.

So, for those getting significant range reductions, maybe push MMI/your dealer to try updating the firmware in the BMU. Much cheaper for them and quicker and better for the environment than getting a replacment battery!

Finally, if you are getting a replacement battery, note that MMI standard operating procedures call for the old pack to be destroyed by flooding for several days and then disposed of!!! When my pack was replaced, I pushed to keep it (see the last few posts in my PHEV Flood Fail topic) and harvested a full set of cells that all tested OK. I had to push, but in the end they couldn't refuse me because my batteries weren't replaced under warranty and hence I had paid for and owned the old ones they were removing. Nevertheless, even if you are getting them replaced under warranty, if all they are going to do is destroy them, that's a very valuable resource being wasted stupidly so I'd fight hard against it.

HTH,
Rob Hills
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Av Consumption: 1.17 L/100km

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Re: PHEV Loss of Km Range with Battery.

Post by reecho »

Just a note that the BMU is not field firmware upgradable for the degradation issues. Mitsubishi in Japan may well have a new BMU developed that fixes the issue by now though..

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