New Tyres

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TomZoe
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New Tyres

Post by TomZoe » Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 04:39

Having 2 new tyres fitted today and all wheels balanced and aligned.

Hopefully I get more than 10000 kms out then now.

I’ve owned the Zoe since March 2018.

When I bought the car tyres were 195 each when I asked at my local bjane t mart. They are now 235 each.

Will report back after they are fitted.

TomZoe
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Re: New Tyres

Post by TomZoe » Fri, 26 Apr 2019, 17:37

So all done Wednesday.

Total cost for 2 tyres: 561.00

Tyres 233 each

Wheel Balance was 10 x 2 = 20

Alignment Front and Rear 75

They pumped to 34PSI - I said Renault recommends 36 - see door sticker. They said 34 will make the tyres last longer but I can inflate to 36 if I want to.

Main Data Badly Out was the "Toe" (on front axle):

- left was 1.9mm before and 0.6mm after they fixed

- right was -0.5mm before and 0.7mm after they fixed

- total was 1.4mm before and 1.3 mm after they fixed.

This data means nothing to me but if anyone understands please comment!

regards,
Tom

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Re: New Tyres

Post by doggy » Mon, 29 Apr 2019, 17:00

Wow,
10K is very poor.
I'll let others comment on the toe-in etc.
Cheers,
Dave

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bladecar
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Re: New Tyres

Post by bladecar » Tue, 30 Apr 2019, 07:05

TomZoe said: "Main Data Badly Out was the "Toe" (on front axle):

- left was 1.9mm before and 0.6mm after they fixed

- right was -0.5mm before and 0.7mm after they fixed

- total was 1.4mm before and 1.3 mm after they fixed."

It's been a long time since I've though about wheel alignment, but in the good old days, toe-in and toe-out with the front wheels was the same for each side.
So usually, front tyres point to each other, or try to roll towards the centre of the car equally by some very small amount, when set according to specifications. These are positive settings eg 0.5mm means the front of the front left-hand tyre rim at bearing level is half a millimetre closer to the centre of the car than if it had been set at straight ahead, 0.00mm.

"- total was 1.4mm before and 1.3 mm after they fixed." This means nothing to me at all.

From what you show, the left tyre was rolling towards the centreline of the car too much, but the right tyre was set to want to roll away from the centreline of the car (negative setting), ie, was set to leave the car if there were suddenly no wheel nuts holding it on. I don't know what led to that situation, whether it was very poor setup from the factory, whether some part of the suspension has play in it that allows positions to change slightly, or highly unlikely, a slightly bent steering rod (which almost certainly would be picked up during alignment setting). Just thinking about this, an effect would be that you would have to steer slightly to the left of centre while trying to drive straight ahead on a level road. This, ignoring castor and camber settings, causes specific tyre wear because the tyres are working harder than normal to give that straight ahead direction. It would also give some unusual feedback through the steering wheel.

I'm guessing you will find the feedback from the steering much more pleasant now.

As with all feedback here, please feel free to argue with my point of view, or I will have to argue with myself. Otherwise, be happy :)

antiscab
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Re: New Tyres

Post by antiscab » Wed, 01 May 2019, 15:34

This post prompted me to get the alignment on our Zoe checked and wheels rotated.
at 30'000km the front tyres look like this (now on the back):
zoe tyre wear.jpg
zoe tyre wear.jpg (38.67 KiB) Viewed 982 times
Wheel alignment was correct, so didn't get adjusted:
zoe wheel alignment.jpg
zoe wheel alignment.jpg (63.31 KiB) Viewed 982 times
Given your wheel alignment could only get within 0.6mm, I can't blame my tyre place for not trying to turn 0.1mm into 0.0mm :lol:

I run 44 PSI all round now, to focus tyre wear on the centre. I'll see how this goes for us.
It is harder on the suspension, is my only worry
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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Re: New Tyres

Post by doggy » Wed, 01 May 2019, 15:44

Interesting! This used to happen on my Volvo V70 station wagon (replaced by Zoe after 21yrs). It made no difference how many times aligned. Chewed through lots of front tyres. It will be interesting to see if the greater inflation helps. I might bump mine up anyway given what has happened to you folks. One assumes you haven't been cornering everywhere at high speed?
Cheers,
Dave

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Re: New Tyres

Post by antiscab » Wed, 01 May 2019, 17:15

doggy wrote:
Wed, 01 May 2019, 15:44
One assumes you haven't been cornering everywhere at high speed?
I haven't, but I can't confirm for my partner. I suspect some cornering would have been tighter and at higher speed than I would have done.

I have heard from UK owners than this wear is quite common though.
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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bladecar
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Re: New Tyres

Post by bladecar » Wed, 01 May 2019, 17:49

According to antiscab's specifications sheet, the toe in/out (not sure now) should be -1mm, the average of the range.
That isn't what tomzoe's car was set to, (was it?). Tomzoe's was set to just outside the maximum range.

I remember morris minis had interesting front tyre wear because they were front wheel drive, and they would power around corners with the tyres scrubbing all the way :)
The Zoe is front wheel drive, isn't it. So the front tyres drive the car, brake the car, steer the car around corners, generate regen for braking, also while going around corners. They are somewhat overworked :) This encourages wear on the edges. Antiscab's tyres, now on the rear, look very good, but have they lasted 30000km? Also, one really needs to also see the inside edge of the tyre to form an opinion about even or uneven wear.

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Re: New Tyres

Post by TomZoe » Sun, 05 May 2019, 08:28

I’m a fairly normal driver but I do love burning off big cars at lights - that is a straight pick up and wheels don’t spin or anything like that.

Quick question: given my numbers are still out should I take back to bob Jane t mart? I’m Sure they wouldn’t mind correcting more.

Any thoughts on
Pressure? 36psi as recommended my Renault or 34 as recommended by bob Jane for tyre longevity - bob Jane are happy to pressure at whatever I want.

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Re: New Tyres

Post by antiscab » Sun, 05 May 2019, 10:39

bladecar wrote:
Wed, 01 May 2019, 17:49
Antiscab's tyres, now on the rear, look very good, but have they lasted 30000km? Also, one really needs to also see the inside edge of the tyre to form an opinion about even or uneven wear.
That's true, see other side of tyre:
IMAG1008.jpg
IMAG1008.jpg (77.43 KiB) Viewed 925 times
I still think pressure should be above 40psi to wear the centre more and the edges less
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

antiscab
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Re: New Tyres

Post by antiscab » Sun, 05 May 2019, 10:44

IMAG1009.jpg
IMAG1009.jpg (37.28 KiB) Viewed 924 times
Technically first photo of Outter tyre wear was 29'500km, but close enough.

We got the car with 2'300km on the clock, and we haven't bought new tyres
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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Re: New Tyres

Post by doggy » Sun, 05 May 2019, 10:57

Wow, that is excellent. Hope mine does as well as that.
Regds,
Dave

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bladecar
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Re: New Tyres

Post by bladecar » Mon, 06 May 2019, 13:14

:) So the next thing is to check out the tyre from the other side and see if it is worn is a similar way, to get an idea of whether there is something different with the setting of just that tyre that you showed.
However, after 30000, my way of doing things would be to be happy and do what you're doing, up the tyre pressure a bit to push the centre of the tyre out slightly. This might give you slightly better range as well, or maybe not.
So tomzoe used bob jane. Antiscab used somewhere. You can only hope for the best with tradespeople as with anyone else. Are they experienced, have they done this car before, were they rushed. Anyway, with new tyres, you can always drive on and see what happens this time. Rotate the tyres front to rear as soon as you become suspicious of uneven tyre wear and get another alignment at the same place, or find somewhere new if you're unsure.

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Re: New Tyres

Post by antiscab » Mon, 06 May 2019, 14:46

Yeah, 30'000km I'm pretty happy with. Tyre wear is same on the other side. If I were really pedantic I could get the tyre place to swap tyres left to right as well as back to front, to really even it out. I'm not that pedantic though.

I used tyre power, Kelmscott.

Still way better than the 15'000km I get out if my bike tyres
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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bladecar
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Re: New Tyres

Post by bladecar » Mon, 06 May 2019, 15:18

Tyres are never moved from one side to the other as they have a direction of rotation. The tyre construction doesn't like it if it has to roll in the opposite direction to its marked direction of rotation or anyway, to the opposite direction to how it is currently rotating.

The wear is probably due to cornering. (well, maybe)

You still haven't told me where you get the Vectrix tyres fitted :)

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Re: New Tyres

Post by brendon_m » Mon, 06 May 2019, 18:19

bladecar wrote:
Mon, 06 May 2019, 15:18
Tyres are never moved from one side to the other as they have a direction of rotation.
Thats not true, most tyres aren't directional. Generally speaking, good tyres may have a direction of rotation for better efficiency at getting rid of water and less road noise etc
Cheap tyres don't care how they are shoved on the car because zero F's are given in the design phase and they are equally bad regardless of rotation

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Re: New Tyres

Post by antiscab » Mon, 06 May 2019, 20:32

they can be rotate left to right without changing the direction of rotation. It means the tyres have to be swapped between the rims. Lots more work
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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bladecar
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Re: New Tyres

Post by bladecar » Mon, 06 May 2019, 20:39

The RACQ website says this: https://www.racq.com.au/cars-and-drivin ... e-rotation

"Uni-directional and asymmetrical tyres
Uni-directional tyres are designed to primarily turn in one direction. (indicated by an arrow on their sidewalls) They must be correctly oriented both on the wheel and to the car.
Like uni-directional tyres, asymmetrical tyres are fitted to the wheel in a particular orientation in order to produce the intended benefits. They too will have sidewall markings to assist with this.
Neither uni-directional or asymmetrical tyres can be rotated side to side as doing so would alter their direction of rotation. Front to rear rotation is the general recommendation."



I just looked it up because brendon_m's comment made me wonder if my old-time mechanical knowledge might have been left behind. But no. So I wonder where brendon_m's new-age comments come from :)

Maybe "cheap tyres" are cheap tyres, but it is advisable to not swap tyres from left to right or right to left. Of course, you CAN do what you like :)

My very long term thought on this is that a tyre rotating in a particular direction stretches the rubber and tyre construction as it rolls along. When you make that tyre rotate in the other direction, instead of being 'stretched' as usual as it is dragged forward along the road, that material is being asked to compress or scrunch up and it loses the composure it has developed.

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Re: New Tyres

Post by bladecar » Mon, 06 May 2019, 20:49

Yes, never thought about the tyres being swapped on the rims as that has never been brought to my attention in 16 years of garage work some years ago. You would need to give the tyres quite some value before you'd pay for that as the option.

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Re: New Tyres

Post by brendon_m » Mon, 06 May 2019, 20:59

Yes, unidirectional and asymmetrical tyres go one way/ work better in one way but the majority of tyres I see are standard rubber, which doesn't care.
If you read through that link it even says to rotate across the car unless the wheels are asymmetrical /unidirectional. As in they are the exception to the rule. Also it brings up that some cars have different front and rear wheels so all you can do is go side to side

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bladecar
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Re: New Tyres

Post by bladecar » Tue, 07 May 2019, 10:52

Now I'm curious if any vehicle manuals advise rotation across the car. Anyone?
Brendon, do you work in a tyre place or otherwise where is your knowledge of this coming from. Just really curious.
I don't but I did an apprenticeship and I know what I absorbed.
Is 'standard rubber' an advance over tyres of 30 years ago. Are unidirectional and asymmetrical tyres a specialty area.
What time is it? :)

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Re: New Tyres

Post by doggy » Tue, 07 May 2019, 11:31

The manuals for our last three cars (all European) have said not to rotate front left/right.

When I was young, some decades ago, one always did a 5 tyre rotation which involved right/left swaps.

Cheers,
Dave

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brendon_m
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Re: New Tyres

Post by brendon_m » Tue, 07 May 2019, 12:54

I'm an auto electrician, but we do servicing as well.
So I'm not a tyre expert but I do work in the trade.
As far as I know there hasn't been any great leaps and bound in tyre tech however asymmetrical tyres are probably more common than they used to be, but that goes against your experience
Most resources I've come across say rotate in a diagonal pattern is the standard but there are exceptions. (ie directional tyres).
That link to racq says it and a quick Google also says diagonal rotation,

Now that being said if you need to flip your tyres left to right to get even wear out of them then there is something wrong on the car. Or you turn in the same direction too much and should vary your routine. Live a little :x
And my personal opinion is just rotate front to back for 3 reasons.
1. Just in case you don't realise the wheels are directional (although it's normally hard to miss the arrow)
2. I'm lazy, I'm not going to carry a wheel to the other side of the car.
3. I'm still lazy and I'm not going to carry a wheel to the other side of a car so there is even wear because someone needs a wheel alignment.
4. I have heard radial tyres can blow out if you flip their direction, I haven't seen proof of that and I have my doubts and suspect it's more of an old mechanics tale(and if the tyre reversing it's direction causes it to fail then I'd say it's cactus anyway) but it doesn't hurt to rotate front to back and skip the diagonal so why not.

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Re: New Tyres

Post by bladecar » Tue, 07 May 2019, 15:29

Hi, the first look at this online was for the Elantra and it confirms your view :)

http://www.hemanual.org/tire_rotation-499.html

so it's not what I thought. It's not cut and dried. :)

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Re: New Tyres

Post by brendon_m » Tue, 07 May 2019, 17:59

IMG_20190507_123920.jpg
IMG_20190507_123920.jpg (1.62 MiB) Viewed 807 times
I found this in an old(1992) tune up manual at work, confirms your view. I had a look at all the tyres in the workshop and they all had radial written on the side but no directional arrows
So I have no idea, maybe the manual is out of date and they used to play it safe.
Had a bit of a discussion at work today, my boss is adamant you should diagonal rotate (unless asymmetrical etc).
I said you can but why bother because if the car is right it should be even.
Another tradesman said if the car isn't loaded evenly (position of fuel tank etc) then the tyres may wear unevenly side to side
I see his point.

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