EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

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EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by BaronVonChickenPants » Sat, 09 Mar 2019, 11:28

I have been approached to distribute new Yinglong LTO cells in Australia.

Apparently Yinlong were having some internal troubles last year, to continue trading they were dismantling pre-assambled battery packs and selling these cells cheaply, these are the cells most of us have been playing with.

Now they have overcome their issues and are back in full swing producing and supplying new cells.

I have been offered access to Yinlong's full range of new A grade LTO 2.3v cells: Cylindrical 66160 30Ah,35Ah,40Ah ,66260 55Ah and prismatic 30Ah and 33Ah.

Still early days and I need to work out exchange rate, order quantity, freight costs, etc but pricing for cylindrical cells should come in under AUD$3/AH for cells in Australia.

Cells would be provided with a tax invoice and warranty.

We can provide freight Australia wide.

I am looking to predominantly order 66160 40AH cells but open to requests.

If you are interested can you please indicate the cell type and quantity.

PS: Sorry if this post is in the wrong place.

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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by BaronVonChickenPants » Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 06:36

We have finalised cell pricing on cylindrical cells.

Our goal is to match, as best we can, Aliexpress pricing landed with GST for A-Grade Yinlong cells, yet provide local distribution and support in Australia. As the cells will be locally stocked and distributed there will be no customs and import fees or issues for buyers within Australia. To only additional expense will be local freight within Australia.

As long as the exchange rate does not change dramatically pricing is as follows, this is based on $2.12/AH:
66160 30AH AUD$63.60 each inc GST
66160 40AH AUD$84.80 each inc GST
66260 55AH AUD$116.60 each inc GST

Size:
66160 and 66260 are big cell formats:
Both are 66mm diameter
66160 are 160mm long + 2 x 25mm terminal posts = 210mm and weigh ~1.15kg
66260 are 260mm long + 2 x 25mm terminal posts = 310mm and weigh ~1.9kg

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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by brendon_m » Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 07:25

Do you have some spec sheets in the cells?

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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by BaronVonChickenPants » Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 14:23

Advantage of Lithium Titanate Battery:
1. faster charging: 6mins fully charged
2. high discharge rate: as much as 10C-15C
3. wide working temperature range: -50°C ~ 65°C
4. super long cycle life: over 30,000 times

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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Richo » Mon, 18 Mar 2019, 13:01

BaronVonChickenPants wrote:
Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 14:23
1. faster charging: 6mins fully charged
22kVA 3-phase at home charged in 6 min is 2.2kWh.
So an electric scooter with 3 phase charging?!?
Bigger than that you either need DC charging, your own sub station or will be slow charging just like every other chemistry.
BaronVonChickenPants wrote:
Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 14:23
2. high discharge rate: as much as 10C-15C
Well that's not really any different to Similar costing LiFe or NCM.
BaronVonChickenPants wrote:
Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 14:23
3. wide working temperature range: -50°C ~ 65°C
Great...
If you live in the snow mountains for that 1 in 50 year event.
Or planning to drive to Antarctica. :arrow:
BaronVonChickenPants wrote:
Sat, 16 Mar 2019, 14:23
4. super long cycle life: over 30,000 times
Over a typical 10 year life that's 8 charge/discharge cycles per day.
Or nearly an hour per day charging your 3 phase scooter :lol:

The only 2 markets I see for LTO is things that need high power eg Motorbike/ racing but it's more likely that other really high C LTO's would be better suited for this application.
The other is something that does short runs and has the opportunity to recharge multiple times a day such as courier, circle route bus, postie etc.
And you would either need to tender or get in on the design phase of those to sell.

For a regular electric car conversion I don't really see the benefit of LTO over other chemistries.
To make it worse they are heavier / less energy dense.

Don't get me wrong I'm sure they are great and good on you for wanting to make a path for people to buy them.
But I see it as a very limited market.

Have you planned on where you're selling these to make it work?
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by T1 Terry » Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 10:23

I think they would be excellent as a replacement battery pack for the series 2 Prius to extend the all electric and greatly extend the mixed mode range. The issue with LiFe cells is the high charge rate the regen pumps out, often seen as high as 180 amps on the scan gauge. That is a 4.5CA charge rate for a 40Ah cell and the LiFeP04 chemistry won't handle that sort of punishment. Even the 120 amp current transfer into the NiMH traction pack (3CA) makes the lithium cells vent a bit so a fan is needed to vent the smell outside.
I'd want to test a few cells first, but if they meet the claims I'm interested.

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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Rusdy » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 09:52

Definitely legit compared to 'that-which-must-not-be-named'. :lol:

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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Richo » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 12:27

T1 Terry wrote:
Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 10:23
I think they would be excellent as a replacement battery pack for the series 2 Prius
Finally we have a use!
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Adverse Effects » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 23:54

Richo wrote:
Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 12:27
T1 Terry wrote:
Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 10:23
I think they would be excellent as a replacement battery pack for the series 2 Prius
Finally we have a use!
what

the battery's or the Prius?

HAHAHAHA
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by T1 Terry » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 07:54

Adverse Effects wrote:
Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 23:54
Richo wrote:
Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 12:27
T1 Terry wrote:
Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 10:23
I think they would be excellent as a replacement battery pack for the series 2 Prius
Finally we have a use!
what

the battery's or the Prius?

HAHAHAHA
Mean and nasty people :lol: Still love both my series 2 Priuses or Pri or what every the term is these days. If I can modify them to tow behind a motorhome I reckon I could develop a great market for bringing more of them back from the dead.
There is a member of the SA chapter that is developing the motor/generator into a 2 stage drive motor with the output being via the input shaft and the whole diff assembly removed and the driveshaft holes blanked off.
If he gets this idea up and running it opens up a whole new repurpose of such a cheap to buy motor/gen set.

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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Richo » Mon, 25 Mar 2019, 12:33

Supposedly Toyota says Prii
https://www.cars.com/articles/2011/02/p ... n-experts/

The newer LTO's are rectangular.
So these round ones would also loose valuable space on a vehicle.

I looked last week and I notice that the aliexpress ad has gone.
Less competition now...
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by volcandaan » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 15:45

Interesting topic.

When (estimated) are the cylindrical cells (40Ah) available for orders within in Australia?
And where to order?

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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 09:20

As a matter of interest on the safety side, is the chemistry of these cells as safe as the LFP and LYP chemistries in regards to explosion/fire? The last thing I'd want is a battery pack doing the Daisy Death thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of01p0Q-yUM .
If something failed in the cell management or thermal control, I'd like to know the worst problems would be dead cells and a strange smell rather than a fireball and the loss of the vehicle and maybe the house where it was recharging ....

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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Adverse Effects » Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 11:00

T1 Terry wrote:
Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 09:20
As a matter of interest on the safety side, is the chemistry of these cells as safe as the LFP and LYP chemistries in regards to explosion/fire? The last thing I'd want is a battery pack doing the Daisy Death thing
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Richo » Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 14:20

T1 Terry wrote:
Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 09:20
... is the chemistry of these cells as safe as the LFP and LYP chemistries in regards to explosion/fire?
They are no worse than any LFP.
They are also more tolerant to over charge / over discharge.
There was some talk about LTO's not requiring a BMS as a result.

Each manufacturer should have a proper test report regardless.
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 14:50

Was it ever determined just what chemistry batteries were in these things? They use LTO cells for pacemakers and nerve stimulators to relieve chronic pain, so I doubt they'd use something that went off quite a dramatic as that explosion.
I'd still want a cell voltage monitor and some form of active balancing. I like the look of the system one of the members of the Adelaide branch is developing. He has one operational in his Prius plug in battery pack and is now working on a refined version that doesn't require the optic couplers as well as the wire linking, all the information transfer as well as reprogramming of the modules is carried out by the 2 wire links. The balance charging using mini inductors to spread the current across 3 cells in either direction is a real winner in my books, the light show is an added bonus :lol:

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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by weber » Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 22:39

The ones that Arvio tested are LTOs. I understand Arvio's response to these South African photos was that these were first generation "supercapacitors" and that this would never happen with the second generation ones they have. It's possible that these first gen used a different lithium-ion chemistry, like LCO or NMC. I would not expect LTOs to go off like this. But clearly they were seriously abused, whatever they were. The BMS did not do its job. If there was one.
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Richo » Mon, 01 Apr 2019, 12:39

weber wrote:
Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 22:39
The BMS did not do its job. If there was one.
Well the whole system was based on a patented BMS.


Dont forget that the "supercap" modules are supposed to be "supercaps".
Our/my inference that these storage modules had LTO's in them is not really a reflection of LTO's safety in general.
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by weber » Mon, 01 Apr 2019, 20:01

Richo wrote:
Mon, 01 Apr 2019, 12:39
Well the whole system was based on a patented BMS.
Hi Richo. Good point. So there definitely was a BMS. It just didn't do its job.
Dont forget that the "supercap" modules are supposed to be "supercaps".
Our/my inference that these storage modules had LTO's in them is not really a reflection of LTO's safety in general.
Sorry Richo. I don't understand your meaning here. You might try again with other words.

I expect we agree that LTOs are in general safer than other lithium ion chemistries. The modules tested by Arvio in Australia were clearly LTOs, based on their voltage versus SoC curve. I was allowing that Arvio might be right about the South African modules being different from theirs. And I thought that perhaps that difference extended to the chemistry that was used. But thinking more about it, I guess that's unlikely.

So, assuming the South African modules used LTOs too, do you have a suggestion as to why they burned so well?
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Richo » Tue, 02 Apr 2019, 12:58

Okay but the box, even the burnt ones, says capacitor.
Did Arvio actually claim/admit somewhere they are really ALL LTO's or are we still basing it on our assumptions?
So to my way of thinking Terry is asking about the safety of LTO's but referencing it to an incident that is a capacitor module.

Given some caps, which have to be in the box (you know like apple juice has to have apples in it), have discharge currents way higher than any LTO and can easily melt insulation, cause catastrophic failure and set fire to the wood and other flammable materials they stupidly used in the box.
The Arvio box is poorly designed and poorly assembled.
Given its installed location in the example is was probably poorly installed too.
That's why they burned so well.
WHY it started burning is not clear and probably had nothing to do with the batteries they supposedly don't have in there.

It's not really a good comparison or base reference since I can put an LTO in a fire and it will eventually burn.
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by weber » Tue, 02 Apr 2019, 14:22

Richo wrote:
Tue, 02 Apr 2019, 12:58
Okay but the box, even the burnt ones, says capacitor.
And I could paint the word "capacitor" on my cat. :)
Did Arvio actually claim/admit somewhere they are really ALL LTO's
No. Of course not.
or are we still basing it on our assumptions?
I've always allowed that there might be a few real supercaps in there, although there is no evidence for it. But since they have less than 1/20th of the energy density of LTOs (and are 50 times the $/Wh), they couldn't make up more than about 10% of the volume, and therefore not more than about 0.5% of the energy storage.
So to my way of thinking Terry is asking about the safety of LTO's but referencing it to an incident that is a capacitor module.
Except we have very good evidence that it is really an LTO battery module in the sense that at least 99% of its energy storage is due to LTO cells.
Given some caps, which have to be in the box (you know like apple juice has to have apples in it),
I think you're confusing a law of Australia with a law of logic or physics. There don't have to be any supercapacitors in the box.
have discharge currents way higher than any LTO and can easily melt insulation, cause catastrophic failure and set fire to the wood and other flammable materials they stupidly used in the box.
The Arvio box is poorly designed and poorly assembled.
I assume you mean the Kilowatt Labs box. Arvio is only the Australian importer.
Given its installed location in the example is was probably poorly installed too.
That's why they burned so well.
WHY it started burning is not clear and probably had nothing to do with the batteries they supposedly don't have in there.

It's not really a good comparison or base reference since I can put an LTO in a fire and it will eventually burn.
OK. Sure. I can go along with that.
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Richo » Wed, 03 Apr 2019, 12:42

weber wrote:
Tue, 02 Apr 2019, 14:22
And I could paint the word "capacitor" on my cat. :)
I sooo want to see that. :lol:
weber wrote:
Tue, 02 Apr 2019, 14:22
I think you're confusing a law of Australia with a law of logic or physics. There don't have to be any super capacitors in the box.
Sure they do it's printed on the box and your cat ;)
False or misleading claims, false advertisement - take your pick - I'm sure Kilowatt chose BOTH...

But true they don't have to put caps in it.
Just wrap the battery in a cap wrapper

However when I looked at the patent some time ago, with the knowledge that they are mostly full of S*#t, I did get the impression that there was a mix of battery and caps.
Kind of like what the CSIRO was trying to do for SLA batteries like 20 years ago that never really went anywhere.
and the BMS was an active up/down balancing system.
So there was a (ONE) cap for every series line of battery.
So in a 48V system there would be 20 caps total.

So out of the 500 odd cylinders in the box there are 20 caps.
20 caps that can go up in a ball of fire.

The BMS in an eV wouldn't save your batteries if you dropped a spanner over the busbars.
Just as I'm sure the 32/0.20 faulty balance wire on a cap pumping over 1000A into wouldn't survive.



In anycase - back on topic - I did find a youtube video of Yinlong doing destructive tests on thier LTO battery.
Bit of a let down - no bangs, or balls of fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAUYbSDEy6I
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by Richo » Wed, 03 Apr 2019, 13:04

weber wrote:
Tue, 02 Apr 2019, 14:22
And I could paint the word "capacitor" on my cat. :)
Would you wash your cat after or let it lick the paint?
Just asking :lol:
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by weber » Wed, 03 Apr 2019, 13:14

Richo wrote:
Wed, 03 Apr 2019, 13:04
weber wrote:
Tue, 02 Apr 2019, 14:22
And I could paint the word "capacitor" on my cat. :)
Would you wash your cat after ...?
Well, I wouldn't want to to in-capacitate it. Ba-dum tish.
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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Post by weber » Wed, 03 Apr 2019, 13:26

Richo wrote:
Wed, 03 Apr 2019, 12:42
In anycase - back on topic - I did find a youtube video of Yinlong doing destructive tests on thier LTO battery.
Bit of a let down - no bangs, or balls of fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAUYbSDEy6I
Useful video. But I didn't see the point of the "Gasoline burning test". There was no way to tell how much of the flame was due to the gasoline and how much due to the LTO cell. And they didn't show us the cell afterwards (which would have been under the gasoline flame anyway).

The one I posted here a year ago, is better regarding fire (although it's not Yinlong).
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php ... 100#p67110
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