PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

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PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rayellam » Fri, 15 Dec 2017, 21:21

MODERATOR NOTES
This topic is for the the PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (also called the Axpert VM II 5000-48, Axpert VM III 5000-48 and Axpert MKS II 5K respectively) and the obsolete PIP-4048GE. These all feature a solar charge controller (SCC) or maximum power point tracker (MPPT) with a higher input voltage range (typically 120 V to 450 V DC).

We say the SCC is unsafe because it necessarily uses a lethal PV array voltage, but it doesn't have insulation monitoring.

Other model numbers:
  • Mecer (rhymes with "spacer") SOL-I-AX-5NB (equivalent to Axpert MKS II 5K and PIP-5048MG)
    SPC II-M 5000-48 (equivalent to Axpert MKS II 5K and PIP-5048MG)
    SPC III 5000W (equivalent to Axpert VM III 5000-48 and PIP-5048GK)

There are other topics for the
PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters (also called the Axpert MKS 5K), and for the
PIP-5048MK inverter (also called the Axpert King 5K), and for
PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications, and for the
Voltronic InfiniSolar inverters.


Index

Documentation
Firmware
  • We are not aware of any patched firmware for these models. Firmware is not interchangeable with other models.
    Factory firmware version 71.71. This is supposed to fix the PV dips and freezes problem, though we're not aware of any users that have confirmed this.
    Warning! It is possible to brick these machines by attempting to flash them with firmware intended for other models, such as the PIP-4048MS or PIP-5048MS (e.g. versions 72.70 or 73.00, or patched versions of these).
Commands
END MODERATOR NOTES
====================================


[Post by rayellam]

Hi All,
Ive been following this thread for over a year now, im an electronics design engineer and appreciate all the input here from obviously very talented/knowledgeable members.

I purchased some a "clone" of a PIP-4048 from a company called CAP Solar around 14 months back, they advertised it as having MPPT charger but looking in the guts of the unit it's actually a PWM..................anyway all that aside. Im considering buying a GENUINE PIP-4048GE inverter from MPP Solar.

There has been a lot of pointers to unreliability problems with the DC side bus on the old 4048. The PIP-4048GE obviously has a very different DC side design as it allows a solar input voltage of 150 to 450VDC. Has any one with electronics knowledge done a tear down on this unit? how is the reliability? is it better than the old units?

Any input would be VERY welcome.

TIA
Ray

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by andys » Sat, 16 Dec 2017, 07:49

rayellam wrote:
Fri, 15 Dec 2017, 21:21
The PIP-4048GE obviously has a very different DC side design as it allows a solar input voltage of 150 to 450VDC.
You didn't say if you live in Australia. One of the advantages of the old PIP is the DC voltages stay under 120V DC and thus it is legal for non-electricians to configure the DC wiring of these units (provided the standards are followed), one less thing to worry about.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rayellam » Sat, 16 Dec 2017, 09:47

Hi Andys,
I live in the Philippines so we are not plagued with regulations (yet). The question i am asking is "has any one with electronics knowledge done a tear down on this unit? how is the reliability? is it better than the old units?"

As far as panel wiring goes, i have 10 x 250W panels, the manual for the inverter suggests that the minimum number of panels in a string is 6 so it looks like i will series all 10, giving a VOC of 377V (yikes). I think ill put some BIG RED warning labels in the panel :-)

I do not want to throw good money at bad stuff and thought maybe someone out there can give me their thoughts on this kit if they are using it..

Thanks
Ray

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by weber » Sat, 16 Dec 2017, 18:32

PIP-4048GE Analysis

[Edit Sep-2018: Most of the things below apply equally to the
PIP-5048MG = Axpert MKS II 5K
PIP-3024GE = Axpert VM II 3000-24
PIP-5048GE = Axpert VM II 5000-48
PIP-3024GK = Axpert VM III-3000-24
PIP-5048GK = Axpert VM III-5000-48]

Hi Ray, Thanks for the kind words. I haven't done a tear-down, or even seen one. But I have an analysis of the PIP-4048GE based on the eBay ads and the manual.

1. Yes, if they are 60 cell panels (as 250 W panels would usually be), you will need to put all ten in series for this inverter.

2. It is not obvious that its battery-side MOSFETs or capacitors would be different from those in the PIP-4048MS (where they are a known weakness). But I note that they have slightly improved the voltage rating of these parts in recent MS deliveries (but not the lifetime or impedance of the capacitors).

3. We do not have access to firmware for the GE and so cannot fix the charging bug, if it still exists.

4. The array voltage is lethal and yet they do not have any insulation monitoring (if designed to have a floating PV array) or any earth-leakage/residual-current detection (if not). And it is unclear which of those two types of shock protection will work (if any).

5. It appears to not have any cover over its 230 Vac terminals.

6. Its AC output cannot be paralleled with others of its kind. Although the manual makes no mention of this either way, the old ad linked above states in plain chinglish: "**Note: this PIP4048GE model is NOT with Parallel able design."

7. Its maximum total charge current is limited to 80 A (unlike the 140 A of an MS) despite the fact that it can separately charge at 60 A from the AC, and 80 A from the solar, just like an MS. This suggests that the GE's SCC (Solar Charge Controller) connects to the 400 V side of the DC-DC converter stage (instead of the battery side as it does in the MS), and so the total battery charge current is limited by what can be pushed backwards through the DC-DC converter stage.

Further to 4 above: If the array is floating, it could be made safe by an insulation monitor such as the Bender isoPV425, or some other isoPV models shown on this page.

However, if I'm right in 7 above, then it will not work with a Bender unit, because the PV array is not floating, nor can it be earthed, because it would connect to the DC bus that the 230 Vac output sine wave is produced from, with no intervening transformer. And it seems unlikely there would be an isolating transformer in the SCC itself. So the PV array will have a common-mode AC voltage relative to earth, possibly at 30 kHz or so. This is the same as what happens with a transformerless grid-feed inverter. This will not work with any of those bender units because they assume an array that is floating with respect to earth (or functionally-earthed via a high-valued resistor).

If I'm right, you would instead need to use a Type-B RCD (Residual Current Device) on the AC output, to detect earth leakage from the array. Type-B RCDs can detect a DC component in the AC signal, where an ordinary RCD can't.

Either way, to know whether you were protected, you would need a means of testing, by deliberately applying some leakage from each of the array terminals to earth. The protection devices should have a "Test" button that does this job. [Edit: But that won't prove anything in the case of a Type-B RCD on the AC output. In that case you'd need to do the following.] Failing that, three 10 kΩ 5 watt resistors connected in series would probably do it. But you'd be dealing with deadly voltages, so you should have some training in electrical work.

If anyone already has a PIP-4048GE, and the required training in electrical work, and wants to tell us whether the array is floating or not, or you want to find out before you go and buy a Bender or a type-B RCD: You can use those same resistors to soft-earth one side of the array and then measure the AC voltage across the resistors. If it's floating, the AC voltage should not be more than a few volts. If it's transformerless then there will be more than 100 V of AC. For these tests, the PIP itself needs to be earthed, as it normally would be. And its neutral output also needs to be connected to earth, as it normally would be via the MEN link in your switchboard, if it was powering household loads.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rayellam » Sun, 17 Dec 2017, 15:41

Hi Weber,
Many thanks for your analysis on the GE. After 24 hours of thought and studying the data available on this inverter coupled with your valued input, im feeling less inclined to purchase for the following reasons.

1. The very high PV array voltage makes me feel VERY uncomfortable for safety reasons. Also i had not rely considered the lack of protection against this high voltage on the inverter it's self.

2. Will i bump into a bunch of reliability issues the GE may throw back at me. If we take the PIP-4048MS as a worked example then that's not a particularly good starting point.

My budget is fairly limited so I am currently researching some other offerings with similar functionality to the PIP series. One that looks interesting is the Growatt SPF5000. One thing it lacks compared to the PIP4048GE inverter is a battery equalization function. I have just purchased 8 x Trojan T106-RE batteries and i rely want to treat these babies well.

Ill post more of what i find as i progress, i feel relived i did NOT push the "order now" button the other night after a couple of beers :-)

Best regards and thanks again
Ray

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by goldam » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 22:35

Hello guys,

I bought the PIP-4048GE inverter. I plan to use it on-grid. It may supply 3/4 of my home appliances, except the owen and 3-phase devices.
The grounding system in my home is TN-C network (combined PEN conductor). Due to this, the AC-N wire on input of inverter is shorted to AC-N on output of inverter. I thought, that this would'n be the problem. Because when inverter is in bypass mode, the input is connected directly to output,
and when inverter is in battery mode, the output is isolated form input (transformer).
But I was wrong.

When I connect the new inverter to AC grid only (no battery, no PV, no load), the inverter starts (display on, beeps).
I apply some testing load (heater). Working fine.
After I connect the inverter to home TN-C network (input AC-N connected to output AC-N) (no battery, no PV).
The inverter didn´t start. When I disconnect the load, the inverter didn´t start.
When I connect the battery the inverter starts and working fine with test load.
But now without battery, it can´t start (no display, no beeps).

Could someone help me, with 2 questions.
Why the AC-N input wire couldn't be connected to AC-N output wire?
What have been damaged? Some auxiliary supply, used only when battery is disconnected?

Before I use the AXPERT KS 24V 2400W inverter with the same configuration for 2 years without problem.

Thank you

Sorry for my english :oops:

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Thu, 22 Mar 2018, 08:00

goldam wrote:
Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 22:35
Hello guys,
Welcome, Goldam.
Why the AC-N input wire couldn't be connected to AC-N output wire?
I don't think that was a problem.
What have been damaged? Some auxiliary supply, used only when battery is disconnected?

Before I use the AXPERT KS 24V 2400W inverter with the same configuration for 2 years without problem.
The PIP-5048GE is advertised as having "batteryless operation support". I can't find the same information for PIP-4048GE. Is it supposed to operate batteryless? Granted, you saw it working batteryless at one point. Did you perhaps have PV connected at that point, and it was day time? It's unclear to me how PV could power the processor and LCD, but I can't say it's impossible.

The 2400 W model will likely have completely different behaviour with no battery connected. So don't be concerned that the GE model doesn't act the same as the 2400 W model. My guess is that nothing has been damaged.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by goldam » Thu, 22 Mar 2018, 19:00

Edit: arrgh. Coulomb here. Looks like I edited instead of quoted this post. Sigh. Thanks for spotting this, Weber.

So the below is a combination of his original post and my reply. Most, probably all, of Goldam's original post is contained in the quotes.

My apologies, Goldam.
goldam wrote: [ Goldam's original post ]
Yes, PIP-4048GE support batteryless operation. It is written in manual (the manual is same as manual for PIP-5048GE,
differ only in powerfactor - PF 0.8).
[ Coulomb's reply ]
The word "batteryless" doesn't appear in the PIP-4048GE manual that I found. I now see that there is a warning for when the battery is disconnected ("BP").
And also, I see inverter working without battery and without PV connected - first run with testing load.
All tests, that I have done, were without PV connected.
Yes, you were quite clear on that. Somehow I managed to overlook that. Sigh.
But for PIP-4048GE it is. Because now the inverter don't start without battery connected.
So something must be damaged, something related to batteryless operation.
Presumably, they have re-introduced the utility power supply, which was present in 2013 PIP-4048MS models, and disappeared soon after. You won't be able to check if you have these parts with these designators without opening the case, which will void your warranty.

It would seem that either this power supply has failed. I can't think of any way that your TN-C earthing system caused this problem. So you should ask your supplier why the unit has suddenly stopped performing per specifications. It seems that you should get a replacement under warranty.
When you gathering the information about PIP-4048MS, did you try to contact somebody in voltronicPower (web contact)?
I've not attempted to contact them about schematics or the like. I have repeatedly attempted to contact them about the charge bugs, but have never received a reply.
I have batteries, so I dont need batteryless operation, but I´m scared to connect inverter to battery and PV with connection between N clamps.
I don't understand what you mean by "N clamps".
Do you have some experience with shorting the inverter output?
By the manual, inverter have short circuit protection, but is it true? I have installed the circuit breaker on output, but with reponse time
of CB, this only protect the wires, not MOSFET.
I've certainly never deliberately shorted the output; that would be tempting fate way too much.

There is a low-valued inductor (L4) between the IGBTs (the main 230 V inverter) and the load, so the current would not rise to dangerous levels instantly. However, my feeling is that it would take tens or hundreds of microseconds for the current to become a danger to the IGBTs, and the inverter firmware protection appears to work at 100 Hz (10 ms). There may well be hardware protection that operates much faster than this; I have not had need to trace this so far. There is a section of the circuit, near the IGBT drivers, whose purpose remains a complete mystery to me; these may be part of the hardware short circuit protection.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by curasun » Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 06:05

Hello guys.
Disaster struck me!
Here is what happened may can help me....
Last week I installed a MPPsolar PIP-5048MG, on a lithiumion battery bank consisting of 84 cells of 24ah Ford energi hybrid, in 2p14s3p configuration, around 7.6kwh.
Connected first the battery and powered up everythings was right booted up and I connected the output to my fridge.didn,t connect pv because I was charging from a separate charge controller. Left till the following day.
Next day I installed a dc-breaker in my box and connected a piece of dual wire to the breaker, so I had NO pv connected to the breaker because I had to go on my roof to connect 4 panels in series.
So after connecting the the piece of wire to the breaker I went to connect the other end to the PV input of the inverter, as soon as I begin to tight the screw the screwdriver made contact with the case and made a big spark, the red light of fault came on and I saw the output went to 110vac. I turn it off immidiately and left it of for 3 minutes and turn it on again but then I heard a small explotion and I turned it off.
I live in the dutch carribean so to sent it to Taiwan will cost a lot, better to buy a new one. but I decided to let my fried wich is a electronic technician open the case.
We opened it and found 2 IGBT of the AC output blown, part number IRGP4066D. Ordered the parts when they we will change them.
I cann't untherstand if the case was live or the PV input had power on it. DO any of you unther what could have happened.
Next time ill turned it completly of before connecting the PV and AC in and out.

Thx in advance for you help.
R.G. Specht

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 07:24

curasun wrote:
Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 06:05
Disaster struck me!
I'm really sorry to hear that.
Last week I installed a MPPsolar PIP-5048MG...
So that's a model with the 450 VDC MPPT.
... I went to connect the other end to the PV input of the inverter, as soon as I begin to tight the screw the screwdriver made contact with the case and made a big spark, the red light of fault came on and I saw the output went to 110vac.
I suspect that the Solar Charge Controller could well be damaged by that event.
I turn it off immidiately and left it of for 3 minutes and turn it on again but then I heard a small explotion and I turned it off.
So that's possibly two separate pieces of circuitry that have failed.
but I decided to let my friend which is a electronic technician open the case.
We opened it and found 2 IGBT of the AC output blown, part number IRGP4066D. Ordered the parts when they we will change them.
Please use the first post index of this thread and read my posts on repairing the IGBTs in a PIP-4048. Most likely when the IGBTs fail short circuit, their gates connect with the 400 V bus and blow up some of the gate drivers. So you need to test and repair as needed any gate drivers, otherwise the new parts will fail immediately. With two IGBTs it's not too bad, but if you've just replaced 16 or more MOSFETs on the battery side, it can be very disheartening to have them all blow up within a second of switch-on.

While the IGBTs tend to fail in obvious ways, the gate drivers can fail while appearing normal. Even if they have burned up, they are so small it's often difficult to notice the problem unless you really look for them. Also check the other pair of IGBTs very carefully. We have had some fail with only the most subtle of cracks to indicate a problem.
I can't understand if the case was live or the PV input had power on it. DO any of you [ understand ] what could have happened.
Your model has the 450 VDC MPPT. This model doesn't buck down to battery voltage like the 145 VDC models. I believe that it boosts directly to the ~400 VDC bus; that's the same bus (possibly on the other side of the buck stage) as the inverter IGBTs run from to make 230 VAC. Since solar panels are isolated from their cases and therefore from earth/ground potential, there is no need for electrical isolation in the MPPT. (The 145 VDC MPPTs are not isolated either, in that case from the 48 V battery). When inverting, the 400 VDC bus has switching voltage on it with respect to the AC outputs. The neutral output will be at earth potential, so the DC bus will have a complicated but low impedance potential with respect to earth and therefore the metal chassis. Your screwdriver short circuited this potential, allowing a high current to flow. That current will have flowed through a pair of IGBTs. That's why one pair failed. As soon as one pair failed short circuit, it likely protected the other pair, although I would not be surprised if they were partly damaged in some way.

After checking and if necessary repairing the other IGBTs and gate drivers, I would completely disconnect the MPPT when first testing the inverter. There could well be a problem with the MPPT, which could affect the inverter, possibly in damaging ways. Check for damage and/or short circuits in the MPPT before reconnecting.

That was an expensive lesson.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by curasun » Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 03:54

Coulomb Thx for you reply.
I'll let my technician see the post and do the testing of the gate drivers.
(Vissie also thx because you explanation in your question i the next post made the testing more untherstanble).

R.G.Specht

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 12:51

Hi,

Having just bought one myself, I was interested to see this:
coulomb wrote:
Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 07:24
curasun wrote:
Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 06:05
Disaster struck me!
I'm really sorry to hear that.
Last week I installed a MPPsolar PIP-5048MG...
So that's a model with the 450 VDC MPPT.
... I went to connect the other end to the PV input of the inverter, as soon as I begin to tight the screw the screwdriver made contact with the case and made a big spark, the red light of fault came on and I saw the output went to 110vac.
That was an expensive lesson.
I wanted to ask: if the inverter had been powered off/isolated from AC & batteries, it wouldn't have happened?

I'll be replacing my "old" PIP-3048LC with the PIP-5048MG shortly :shock: (well, hopefully not!). Eventually, I'll transfer my existing solar array from a Classic 200 to the 5048. Just want to be sure the same can't/won't happen to me.

Thanks,

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 13:58

dRdoS7 wrote:
Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 12:51
if the inverter had been powered off/isolated from AC & batteries, it wouldn't have happened?
Yes, assuming you've also isolated the solar panels, then the only source of energy is the bus capacitors. I believe that they have bleed resistors, so they will have discharged within about a minute. So all safe.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 14:51

Hi,
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 13:58
dRdoS7 wrote:
Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 12:51
if the inverter had been powered off/isolated from AC & batteries, it wouldn't have happened?
Yes, assuming you've also isolated the solar panels, then the only source of energy is the bus capacitors. I believe that they have bleed resistors, so they will have discharged within about a minute. So all safe.
OK, much thanks.

Yes, I would def. isolate the panels too! Have to move the wiring to another DC CB for the 5048. Yes, the array DC isolator will be off too. Plus the combiner will be off. Think that covers it. :) Also, I'll do it after dark, as Mr. Murphy says: To be sure, to be sure." :lol:

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by birdibird » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 19:22

Hi all,

I just wanted to share here that my dream came true yesterday.
Thanks to this and other forums, I made this work!!
(I know It is a bit off topic, as this topic is Non-EV, but it is also about the PIP (and I also have LiFePO4 batteries :D)

We are now charging our Renault Zoe electric car off grid!

I bought the PIP-5048MG which supports batteryless mode, so I have a direct PV ->EV system.
And it is working!

This is my setup:

-24 220Wp panels in 3 strings
-MPP Solar PIP-5048 MG (4500 Wp, 48 DC, 5000W AC output, supports batteryless mode)
-solar fuses, RCCB, DC and AC MCB's
-earth rod
-MC4's and cables etc

I oversized to be able to charge on cloudy days and in the winter. Atm it is quite sunny here, so the real test is still to come :)

I am using the 'granny charger' of Renault (1 fase 230V) atm in 10A mode.
Today I'll try 14A.
Future will be to build a smart/open evse to squeeze the max out of the sun and the panels!

I'll keep you posted.

I am curious if one of you know if the tweaks you guys made in the software could work for the MG.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 23:50

birdibird wrote:
Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 19:22

We are now charging our Renault Zoe electric car off grid!

I bought the PIP-5048MG which supports batteryless mode, so I have a direct PV ->EV system.
And it is working!
Neat!
I am curious if one of you know if the tweaks you guys made in the software could work for the MG.
Most of the tweaks are about battery charging, usually a very important task, but in your case, not really needed! But of course not everyone will be doing what you're doing.

Also, we don't have any 450 V MPPT firmware to patch, apart from the VM (Value Mppt) models. So far, I haven't found how the main processor talks to the Solar Charge Controller at all. So for some time, quite possibly forever, there won't be patches for the MG.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by birdibird » Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 04:36

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 23:50
Also, we don't have any 450 V MPPT firmware to patch, apart from the VM (Value Mppt) models. So far, I haven't found how the main processor talks to the Solar Charge Controller at all. So for some time, quite possibly forever, there won't be patches for the MG.
I get it. :D
Can I somehow extract the firmware from my MG? Would be interesting...

I do have LiFePo4 batteries, though, which I might connect. Or not, to keep it separated.

Other question:
I ended up bonding in my distribution box earth and neutral. (I have no AC in). Otherwise the car did not want to charge.
Have you guys been doing this too?
The setting 38 did not work, I only heard a lot of rattling coming from the MG. That might be because I don't have batteries connected, not?

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 08:05

birdibird wrote:
Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 04:36
Can I somehow extract the firmware from my MG? Would be interesting...
No, it's protected by a 128 bit password, so about 3×10³⁸ combinations. Plus, you need slightly specialised equipment and knowledge.
I ended up bonding in my distribution box earth and neutral. (I have no AC in). Otherwise the car did not want to charge.
Have you guys been doing this too?
Most of us have AC input, so that provides the earth.
The setting 38 did not work, I only heard a lot of rattling coming from the MG. That might be because I don't have batteries connected, not?
Setting 38 ("Allow neutral and grounding of AC output [to be] connected together") merely changes how the tiny relay on the communications board is controlled. You have to provide an external power supply and relay to do the actual neutral to earth connection. I can't see how that would cause rattling, unless your power supply (which in your case is only PV) was very weak. Was it around dawn or dusk?

I assume that your inverter has an internal relay for this (one of the relays is now a changeover type), so that with no power applied, you'd see neutral connected to earth anyway. It should stay that way while in battery mode. It would be in battery mode for you all the time, I think, apart from a few seconds after startup, and perhaps when the PV power is too low for the present load (including the ~50 W of idle internal load).

So I guess what you are saying is that you had to connect an earth from your AC switchbox or elsewhere (e.g. metal water pipe) to the earth of the inverter (AC in, AC out, or the metal box). I'd say this is needed to conduct away the switching transients from the Y capacitors (line and neutral to earth). These might otherwise upset the car charger or EVSE.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by birdibird » Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 09:11

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 08:05
Setting 38 ("Allow neutral and grounding of AC output [to be] connected together") merely changes how the tiny relay on the communications board is controlled. You have to provide an external power supply and relay to do the actual neutral to earth connection. I can't see how that would cause rattling, unless your power supply (which in your case is only PV) was very weak. Was it around dawn or dusk?
nope, I tried it at different times with the same result.
I assume that your inverter has an internal relay for this (one of the relays is now a changeover type), so that with no power applied, you'd see neutral connected to earth anyway. It should stay that way while in battery mode. It would be in battery mode for you all the time, I think, apart from a few seconds after startup, and perhaps when the PV power is too low for the present load (including the ~50 W of idle internal load).
How do you mean, with no power applied? PV power? If there is no PV power, the MG is off, because there is no battery connected.
So, I don't know if neutral would be connected to earth then. I think not, as it seems the setting 38 is for that. When the inverter has no power (off), neutral and earth are not connected.
Also, the MG switches off and restarts when there is not enough power for the load. This happens at dusk, so I need to be there to switch everything off.
The mode it is in is a special 'battery mode', as it bypasses a battery.

So I guess what you are saying is that you had to connect an earth from your AC switchbox or elsewhere (e.g. metal water pipe) to the earth of the inverter (AC in, AC out, or the metal box). I'd say this is needed to conduct away the switching transients from the Y capacitors (line and neutral to earth). These might otherwise upset the car charger or EVSE.
I put a earth rod in the ground and connected it in my switchbox to the earth wire of AC out (earth AC out, AC in and the metal box are interlinked in the inverter) and of course to the earth wires of the car and the house circuits.
This did not work for the car. After reading a lot and speaking to various people I interconnected earth and neutral in my switchbox and then it worked.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 09:39

birdibird wrote:
Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 09:11
How do you mean, with no power applied? PV power? If there is no PV power, the MG is off, because there is no battery connected.
It surprised me too. It seems to be via a normally closed contact, so yes when the power is completely off, I'd expect neutral and earth to be connected internally.
The mode it is in is a special 'battery mode', as it bypasses a battery.
I assume that it's still treated as a battery mode, for the purposes of the inverter neutral to earth relay.
After reading a lot and speaking to various people I interconnected earth and neutral in my switchbox and then it worked.
That's weied, since by my understanding, these two should have been connected internally anyway. Maybe the EVSE or charger gets spooked before the inverter proper powers up; perhaps that could explain it.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by birdibird » Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 09:49

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 09:39
birdibird wrote:
Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 09:11
How do you mean, with no power applied? PV power? If there is no PV power, the MG is off, because there is no battery connected.
It surprised me too. It seems to be via a normally closed contact, so yes when the power is completely off, I'd expect neutral and earth to be connected internally.
The mode it is in is a special 'battery mode', as it bypasses a battery.
I assume that it's still treated as a battery mode, for the purposes of the inverter neutral to earth relay.
After reading a lot and speaking to various people I interconnected earth and neutral in my switchbox and then it worked.
That's weied, since by my understanding, these two should have been connected internally anyway. Maybe the EVSE or charger gets spooked before the inverter proper powers up; perhaps that could explain it.
I mostly connect the car only after the inverter has powered up.
I measured it. There is no connection at the inverter between earth and neutral...

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by curasun » Tue, 16 Oct 2018, 08:11

Hello guys. I'm glad again. 😊
PIP-5048MG working again. Replaced 2 IGBT IRGP4066D-EPBF.
Must say when a disassebled the unit I found a brown wire very close to the ground stud in case and it was like peeled in the tread, thats why the case was live.
Wanted to upload some pictures without succes.
Machine was disassembled by myself and brung the main board to a friend of mine wich is a TV repairer. He replaced the 2 IGBT's and measured every component he could and found a blown resistor wich he replaced, but didn't showed me wich. We couldn't test the drivers because we didn't had an osciloscope.

I carefully assembled it again based on pictures I made when disassembling.
I installed an copper pipe as a grouded rod in the ground and ran a wire to unit ac output ground. Connected the bateries to the unit and prayed. My friend said if it starts without popping the IGBT's it will be fine.
So it started up fine. But I wanted to measure the AC output, it was 0v,🤣.. But...I had the meter on DC volts, turned it to AC-volts and BANG 230vac, in the after noon when the batteries where full I started up my Airconditioner to load up the inverter and it was fine.
One of this days I'll connect the PV. and let you know.
This inverters are sturdy. What I like is they are REPAIRABLE and not that difficult to dis and assemble.
HOW TO UPLOAD PICS GUYS.??????
when I click on the hamburger next to option it wont change to atachments.....

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by weber » Tue, 16 Oct 2018, 10:05

@curasun Have you tried just dragging and dropping the image files into the reply editing area?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 09:32

Hi,

I have a 5048MG, which I will be installing in Nov. According to the manual it should not be mounted on a flammable surface. My current inverter (PIP3048LC) is mounted on a thick formwork ply board.

I have seen quite a few pics & vids of the inverters mounted on what look like timber, etc.

Just wondering what others are mounting on.

I'd prefer to not have modify the board as it has a Classic, and other electrics mounted on it as well.

I thought if I can't mount it direct, I would use some rectangular alum. hollow section (or thick flat of which I have a few metres) and space it out from the board.

Thanks,

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by paulvk » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 17:37

I have my ones two homes , four inverters mounted on ply wood I do not see a big risk of fire
They could be mounted with fiber cement board behind them which has a good fire rating
If mounted on a metal surface earthing and insulation need to be considered

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