PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Tejota » Wed, 20 Jun 2018, 23:40

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 12 Feb 2018, 14:56


Weber and I have finally finished testing our patched firmware based on factory firmware version 73.00. Hardware that comes with factory firmware 73.00 has a neutral to earth relay, which is active only when the inverter is in battery mode.
I noticed that neutral to earth relay is active only when the inverter is in battery mode but when only the inverter is standalone. If there are several paralleled inverters neutral is not to earth (battery mode) on any paralleled inverters. Mmmm firmware problem or what?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jayA » Thu, 21 Jun 2018, 14:07

Hi @coulomb and @weber. First of all I want thank you for your effort and time of answering questions.

I would also like to ask you if I can use your patch to upgrade the firmware of my inverter. Current Main CPU 72.40 / Secondary CPU Version 1.24. I am not also sure if my inverter is manufactured by Voltronics. Please find attached photo and please let me know your thoughts about it.
received_10211275747239346.jpeg
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by charliefd » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 21:20

It's the second time I see my inverters reporting a brief surge in PV production the exact moment of the switch from grid to solar. Would this be a freak coincidence, an artifact of the monitoring software (ICC) or just normal physics (that i would like to understand)?

I caught the event from today at 12:10:30 "on camera":
Image

P.S. load was reported constant (not shown on the graph above)

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by antiscab » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 23:28

Could it be the panels weren't at max power point until the inverter took some of the load? Likely array output was higher than what the batteries could take?
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by charliefd » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 05:00

antiscab wrote:
Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 23:28
Could it be the panels weren't at max power point until the inverter took some of the load? Likely array output was higher than what the batteries could take?
Thanks, that could have been an explanation as I haven't provided all the data: the power generated at the moment was well below the maximum charge current * battery voltage and the batteries were not full. Plus that the power level just spiked, shouldn't it have staid up after the inverter took the load?

Anyway, it was just a harmless spike on the graph that made me question my understanding of the system

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 08:03

jayA wrote:
Thu, 21 Jun 2018, 14:07
... if I can use your patch to upgrade the firmware of my inverter. Current Main CPU 72.40 / Secondary CPU Version 1.24.
Those are moderately old firmware versions, but it should be safe to update the main firmware to 73.00c. Don't use factory firmware 73.00, as it will think it's running on a clone and will stop working after 60 days. Also, we went to some trouble in the patched firmware to support older SCC firmware versions, including 1.24. I don't recall if the factory firmware was so accommodating. If for some reason you don't want to use patched firmware, it should be safe to update to 72.70, or 72.90 if you can find it. Our patched firmware files always have the original firmware in the zip file, e.g. dsp_original_72.70.hex. To update to factory firmware, copy this file over the top of dsp.hex and run the reflash tool.
I am not also sure if my inverter is manufactured by Voltronics.
It looks genuine to me, but the clones may be getting better at copying. Also, my impression is that most of the non-obvious clones come with much more recent firmware, so that also indicates (but doesn't prove) authenticity.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 05:43

hey guys,
do you have any idea that if i use POPnn to switch the inverter to grid/battery few times / day, will be written to EPROM and decrease the number of writes ?
thanks

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 06:59

ionutd wrote:
Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 05:43
if i use POPnn to switch the inverter to grid/battery few times / day, will be written to EPROM and decrease the number of writes ?
Yes, each Pxxx command including a POP command will cause a write to the EEPROM. But it's a separate chip from the processor, so it could be replaced cheaply if needed, but it has a long rated wear life anyway. See also where this was discussed earlier, accessible from the index in the first post of this topic.

Edit: if you sent 4 extra commands every hour, day and night, even with other usage, one million writes comes to over ten years.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by PurePower » Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 15:08

coulomb wrote:
Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 08:03
I am not also sure if my inverter is manufactured by Voltronics.
It looks genuine to me, but the clones may be getting better at copying. Also, my impression is that most of the non-obvious clones come with much more recent firmware, so that also indicates (but doesn't prove) authenticity.
What indicators would prove authenticity?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by PurePower » Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 15:17

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 19:34
ionutd wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 16:09
Can the ICC software manage my PIPs for charging the Pylontech batteries using the modified firmware, or should i make my own scripts to manage the charging.
I believe that ICC can or soon might be interfacing directly to the Pylontech CAN or RS232 bus.

Check this thread on the PowerForum (I didn't find out whether ICC can talk to the Pylontechs directly yet with a quick search), or ask there. I don't use either Pylontech batteries or ICC.
ICC does not yet make use of the Dynamic Current Control feature of the firmware but it does interface into the Pylontech batteries using the Console(RS232) port. It can pull important data like SOC, batt temp, batt cycles, ah remaining, voltage, watts and amps which is displayed in ICC. This at least allows you to automatically change between grid and solar based on SOC.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 16:20

PurePower wrote:
Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 15:08
What indicators would prove authenticity?
That's an interesting question. There are commands you can send it to determine whether the main firmware is from Voltronic, and others to check if the bootloader is the latest Voltronic version, but a correct response could just mean a clone maker has copied the firmware exactly (and illegally). But I suppose that such a correct response indicates a certain level of authenticity.

To me it's weird that Voltronic Power don't put their name on their products. They let the third parties put their names and even model numbers on their products. I think that just leads to confusion. I suppose they do it so they don't ever have to deal with end-users. So the distributors are supposed to add some mark-up to cover support. But they are competing with the other distributors, who might not add much for support, and therefore take away some of their sales. So it's a race to the bottom, and support is typically (but not universally) awful. That's part of why this topic exists; the users have to do a lot of their own support.

To answer your question, I can't think of any factor that would prove authenticity. You just have to know from others' previous experiences that supplier X sells authentic hardware and offers reasonable support.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mave » Sun, 01 Jul 2018, 20:35

JvdSpoel wrote:
Tue, 28 Feb 2017, 00:36
Hi All,

Error Code 51

I got a couple of Axpert 5MKS inverters which I have replaced with new one's for customers which gave me a Error 51. The inverters still work but will come up with the error intermittently.

I would like to repair these one's so that I can use them for swopout units - anybody who have had these problems and repaired the mainboard who can assist? Which components are the probable cause - the IGBTs or Mosfets. Since they are working I assume that it could be component failure which is busy to happen.

The service manual does not give a lot of information about the error and what needs to be replaced. Like a error 09 I know that the IGBTs and mosfets had gone.

Johan
Hi Johan.

Sorry for this refloat, but I have a 4048MS with Error 51 and exactly same behavior. When disconnecting the solar panels, it seems to work ok for a few days, but after 3-5 days the error re-occur. So it seems to me that it's an "overcurrent" read for some sensor. When PV is connected the current is higher and more probably to occur. But without them still occur.

Did you be able to solve the Error 51? How?

I have the same problem with a 4048MS (almost 4 years old, with original firmware).

Regards

[ Edited Coulomb: Removed near-duplicate post by combining two. ]

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 03 Jul 2018, 09:53

mave wrote:
Sun, 01 Jul 2018, 20:35
I have a 4048MS with Error 51 and exactly same behavior.
Last time I read the firmware related to error 51 (fault code 51) in this post, I seemed to think it was associated with a 192 A limit. Upon reviewing the code now, I see I was confusing samples with amps (these differ by a factor of 25). It occurs after reading either of two current samples, and occurs when the sample exceeds an "overcurrent limit". This limit starts out at 40 A, but is increased to 80 A when in battery mode and nothing bad goes wrong. The error only happens when the current limit has been increased to 80 A. There are two AC current sensors, I believe that one measures inverter current, and the other measures load current. I assume that these currents are instantaneous, not RMS. Even so, 80 A peak translates to abut 56 A RMS for a sine wave, which at 230 V is some 13 kVA. There is a separate current limit (not called the "over" current limit, just the ordinary limit, which starts at 32 A and increases to 65 A. 65 A peak translates to 50 A RMS, which represents 10.5 kVA, just over the Volt-Amp limit for the inverter (overload allowed for 10 seconds). So a reading of ≥80 A is pretty bad, and hence it triggers fault code 51.
When disconnecting the solar panels, it seems to work ok for a few days, but after 3-5 days the error re-occur.
I don't understand why disconnecting solar panels would have any effect. Perhaps it's merely co-incidental, although another poster also mentioned the connection.
So it seems to me that it's an "overcurrent" read for some sensor.
That agrees with my reading of the firmware. Assuming that nothing catastrophic is happening, such as an intermittent short circuit of the inverter or load outputs (perhaps a protection MOV is breaking down prematurely), it has to be either the Hall Effect sensor (blue), or the current transformer (looks much like many of the other transformers, with yellow tape over the windings). Or of course the circuits associated with those sensors; presumably there are filter and amplifier components.

[ Edit: Quick note re 192 A confusion. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 21:51

hey guys,
i'm thinking of switching off the PIPs during night and switch them on in the morning, i have 3 PIPs and i don't like the consumption of ~3 amps :).
do you think its ok to do that ? also what do you think will be the best solution for that, i'm thinking at switching load to grid, wait a couple of minutes and then switch off the inverters or just switch off the inverters and have a bypass that will transfer the load to the grid when the inverter doesn't output any power ?
Thanks
IonutD

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:40

ionutd wrote:
Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 21:51
... have a bypass that will transfer the load to the grid when the inverter doesn't output any power ?
That's the way that Weber and I have arranged our energy systems. Personally, I find it extremely convenient. Any time I need to work on the PIP inverter, I just isolate as needed, and the power stays on. If something really high stress happens to a battery cell, the Battery Management System will drop out the PIP system, and this final changeover contactor ensures that power stays on. Even if I need to hit the big red switch on the energy system, which drops out some 7 contactors, the power stays on to the house.

Of course, this contactor is also a parasitic load, which is normally supplied by the battery at night. But it's not a huge load, and it's mostly inductive, so the drain on the battery is much less than from one PIP inverter. Plus, there is the peace of mind from continuous power. I've never had a computer reset due to changeovers, either inside the PIP, or due to the external changeover contactor. My external contactor is a Hager ES470, rated at 63 A. Your electrician needs to know how to wire something like that, but I imagine that most would. It has two normally open contacts and two normally closed. The neutral from the inverter is switched, but not the supply neutral. The contactor takes up 3 17.5 mm bays in the house switchbox.

[ Edit: relay - > contactor, has 2 sets of NO and NC contacts.]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 13:25

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:40
How does the BMS drop out the PIP system, disconnect battery ?
Yes. Crude, but effective :evil:
coulomb wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:40
The neutral from the inverter is switched, but not the supply neutral.
I don't think i got this, you mean that you only switch the load, but you leave the inverter with the GRID ON ?
Sorry, that was a bit obscure. The active is switched between the inverter and the grid, and the neutral to the inverter disconnects when in there is no inverter output, but the load always connects to grid neutral.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by charliefd » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 21:36

ionutd wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 13:25

....
The active is switched between the inverter and the grid, and the neutral to the inverter disconnects when in there is no inverter output, but the load always connects to grid neutral.
....
If I read the above correctly in your setup the grid neutral will be connected to the inverters' output neutral when the load is powered by the inverters ? And this will stay true for both bypass mode and battery/solar mode.

The company that performed the installation warned that in battery mode the neutral is "floating" and I could have trouble using devices that expect true zero potential neutral line (e.g. certain type of flame detectors). Moreover they stated that a true 4p switch-over switch should be used and not a 3P+N that has the N permanently connected to one of the sources.

Connecting the the various neutrals to the same reference (grid neutral) sounds like good practice to me as long as the inverters don't mind. To complicate things more there is the option to have neutral tied to ground by the inverters when in battery mode: i guess with your setup that option needs to stay off ?!

Thanks for educating me with all this! Reading this thread alone has been a tremendous jump-start for me. In time I hope I will be able to contribute to it.
For now I can report my experience running 73.00c on all 3 inverters without issues (3 days now). I will also warn others against performing the upgrade with the grid connected to the inverters: for 2 out of 3 inverters the flashing went on without issues, the 3rd one started extremely slow (more than 1h to 40%) and kept dropping out of the process at various percentages. Re-trying would usually resume the flashing (just as slow) until at 65% dropped out and resumed at ... 30%. By that time it was obvious it might never finish, so I cut all power to it, turned it on on battery only (no LCD by now) and the flashing went on flawlessly and just as fast as the other 2 had been: 9blocks/s.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 05:32

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:40

Yes. Crude, but effective :evil:
Cool, what relay/contactor do you use for that ?

Thanks
Last edited by ionutd on Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 05:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 05:35

charliefd wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 21:36

I will also warn others against performing the upgrade with the grid connected to the inverters: for 2 out of 3 inverters the flashing went on without issues, the 3rd one started extremely slow (more than 1h to 40%) and kept dropping out of the process at various percentages. Re-trying would usually resume the flashing (just as slow) until at 65% dropped out and resumed at ... 30%. By that time it was obvious it might never finish, so I cut all power to it, turned it on on battery only (no LCD by now) and the flashing went on flawlessly and just as fast as the other 2 had been: 9blocks/s.
i had the same issue with one of the inverters and both grid and solar were disconnected and no load on the inverter, had to restart and flash again.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 07:38

charliefd wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 21:36
If I read the above correctly in your setup the grid neutral will be connected to the inverters' output neutral when the load is powered by the inverters ? And this will stay true for both bypass mode and battery/solar mode.
Yes, that's right.
The company that performed the installation warned that in battery mode the neutral is "floating" and I could have trouble ...
It's true that for models that came with firmware before 73.00, there is no connection from inverter neutral output to earth under any conditions. However, in the models that come with 73.00, there is a new changeover relay that connects the inverter neutral either to earth when in battery mode, or to the AC input neutral otherwise. I can't find anything in the firmware that operates this new relay, so I now assume that the neutral to earth relay switches when the inverter output relay switches. However, the changeover relay seems to have a normally closed connection with earth that changes load nuetral to connect to AC input neutral when the coil is energised. So this new relay connects load neutral to earth when the power is off.
To complicate things more there is the option to have neutral tied to ground by the inverters when in battery mode: i guess with your setup that option needs to stay off ?!
We don't have an external relay to connect AC out neutral to earth when the dry contact signal is on, no. When you use the dry contact option, you have to provide the relay yourself, external to the inverter-charger case.

[ Edit: the new neutral to earth relay has changeover contacts. Also reworded. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sat, 07 Jul 2018, 11:49

A picture can be worth a thousand words. Coulomb kindly pointed me to an early schematic showing an early arrangement of the AC relays in the PIP-4048MS. [Edit: The later arrangement, still prior to firmware version 73.00, has only 3 relays. It seems the inverter relay is omitted.] Below is my best guess at the present (73.00) arrangement, that connects neutral to earth when in battery mode.

73.00Guess.png
73.00Guess.png (22.45 KiB) Viewed 5876 times

This is based on the fact that there are still only 4 relays, but one of them has changed from normally-open to changeover. I assume it is the one that was already switching the neutral, and that this has not changed its location.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sat, 07 Jul 2018, 12:18

Here's a table showing all possible relay states.

Inverter  Safety     Output    Mode
relay     relays     relay
-----------------------------------------
off       off        off       Off
off       off        on        (pointless)
off       on         off       (pointless)
off       on         on        Line mode (not AC charging)
on        off        off       (pointless)
on        off        on        Battery mode
on        on         off       ? (AC charging with loads off?)
on        on         on        Line mode (AC charging)

Unless the state with the question mark is actually used, I can't see the point of the output relay. Can anyone suggest a reason for it?
[Edit: Coulomb sensibly suggests, in the above-linked post: "Perhaps the [output] relay goes off if a short circuit is detected on the load."]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Tejota » Sun, 08 Jul 2018, 15:30

coulomb wrote:
Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 07:38

It's true that for models that came with firmware before 73.00, there is no connection from inverter neutral output to earth under any conditions. However, in the models that come with 73.00, there is a new changeover relay that connects the inverter neutral either to earth when in battery mode, or to the AC input neutral otherwise. I can't find anything in the firmware that operates this new relay, so I now assume that the neutral to earth relay switches when the inverter output relay switches. However, the changeover relay seems to have a normally closed connection with earth that changes load nuetral to connect to AC input neutral when the coil is energised. So this new relay connects load neutral to earth when the power is off.
Models with 73.00 only connects neutral to earth in battery mode when param 28 is SIG (parallel board inserted) or when there is not parallel board in (not param 28 obviusly).

If you put param 28 to PAL, neutral to earth is not connected in any situation: always floating.

I dont know why.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Alex_50174 » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 19:07

Hi guys!
Sorry for my bad English, it's not my native language.
I'm trying to repair a pair of 5kVa inverters. They worked in parallel and died in one time.
And I want to guess why that happened.
There was an 100A circuit breaker (C100 for 220V AC) between batteries and inverters (1 circuit breaker for 2 inverters) and it tripped.
After that MOSFETs at the battery side shorted, DC-DC IGBTs are also shorted, but INV full bridge IGBTs are not shorted.
Is it possible that when circuit breaker tripped during normal inverters operation there was a power surge that killed transistors in both sides?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:56

Alex_50174 wrote:
Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 19:07
Hi guys!
Welcome, Alex.
There was an 100A circuit breaker (C100 for 220V AC) between batteries and inverters (1 circuit breaker for 2 inverters) and it tripped.
100 A is quite light for two inverters in parallel. It also sounds like they were only AC rated; you need DC rated fuses or breakers there. When they opened at something over their rated current, they may well have arced, pitting the contacts, and that may have interrupted the power to the inverters many times in a fraction of a second. The natural inductance of the battery cables may have caused voltage transients.

If you did not replace the original MOSFETs and capacitors, then they were already running very close to their limits. A few rapid inductive spikes could well have sent them into avalanche breakdown.
After that MOSFETs at the battery side shorted, DC-DC IGBTs are also shorted, but INV full bridge IGBTs are not shorted.
Is it possible that when circuit breaker tripped during normal inverters operation there was a power surge that killed transistors in both sides?
Certainly. However, it's also possible that heat caused the capacitors that protect the battery-side MOSFETs to dry and become high impedance, allowing the transients on the 50 V bus to kill those MOSFETs, and the transformer coupled the transients (plus new ones from the short on the 50 V bus) to the DC-DC IGBTs. The new transients on the 50 V bus couple to the other inverter via the battery cables, killing that inverter as well. Of course, the shorted MOSFETs would cause the battery breaker to trip. Arcing and pitted contacts might have been the mechanism to transfer the transients from one inverter to the other.

This is all very speculative; it's hard to know what happens in a breakdown situation unless everything is instrumented and logged in a laboratory situation.

Edit: you have also likely blown several gate driver parts. See the index (first post this topic) for what to look out for, should you attempt to repair the inverters.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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