PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

non-EV Solar, Wind and other renewable power sources
non-EV batteries and other energy storage stuff
Forum rules
Important!
This forum is for discussion of Non-EV matters.
kmh5147
Noobie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 06:04
Real Name: Kevin
Location: North America
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by kmh5147 » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:07

No, I have an eyedro with line clamps on the ac coming from my utility service panel to the pip.

kmh5147
Noobie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 06:04
Real Name: Kevin
Location: North America
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by kmh5147 » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:11

I've tested the eyedro on another circuit, and it's accurate.

Here's a screenshot

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6_SC1 ... p=drivesdk

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2595
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:37

Devices like the eyedro are not true power meters. They merely rectify the current and multiply it by a fixed voltage. They can be fooled badly by spiky current waveforms. A PIP-4048MS doing nothing consumes about 50 watts. If the PIP was really consuming 600 watts, and putting out no electrical power, then it would all be turning to heat. That amount of heat being generated inside the PIP would be hard to miss.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

kmh5147
Noobie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 06:04
Real Name: Kevin
Location: North America
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by kmh5147 » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:41

Great advice! Do you have any recommendations on a way to capture what it's actually consuming?

Thank you for the help, I've been perplexed for the past few hours.

rinaldoparaipan
Noobie
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon, 26 Oct 2015, 03:26
Real Name: Dan Paraipan
Location: Romania
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by rinaldoparaipan » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 23:52

weber wrote:
Tejota wrote:Ok.
Another problem with this firmware 72.60A lead-acid version: If I setup:
Param 1: sbu
Param 5: use
Param 12: 47
Param 26: 57
Param 27: 54
Param 29: 46
Inverter is shutdown with 49V in batt.   Why??


Because of param 29 (low voltage cut off) set to 46 V, the inverter shut off when the battery went below 46 V under load, for more than 10 seconds. After the inverter shut off, and so the load was removed, the battery voltage recovered to 49 V. But the battery must get to 4 V above param 29, i.e. 50 V before the inverter will come back on.

This is the same behaviour as the original firmware.

Is the inverter connected to the public grid?(eg-what do you have at AC in?)
Because, if you have a load "spike" ,the voltage drops below 47V(see param 12), returns to 49V after the spike disappear, and will go back to battery depending on Param 13.
I think this could be another reason.
Last edited by rinaldoparaipan on Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 12:54, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2595
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Thu, 22 Dec 2016, 05:24

kmh5147 wrote: Great advice! Do you have any recommendations on a way to capture what it's actually consuming?

Thank you for the help, I've been perplexed for the past few hours.

You're welcome, Kevin. I'm sorry I haven't found a good solution for that. But what you're looking for is a "single-phase true-RMS power meter".

This might do the job.
http://www.dhgate.com/product/5-65-a-22 ... |712670759
It's designed to be wired into a switchboard by an electrician.

Here one that plugs in,
https://shop.ata.org.au/shop/power-mate-15a
but it has Australian plugs and sockets and could not take the full current of a PIP that's powering the maximum load _and_ charging a battery.
Last edited by weber on Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 18:25, edited 1 time in total.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

kmh5147
Noobie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 06:04
Real Name: Kevin
Location: North America
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by kmh5147 » Fri, 23 Dec 2016, 18:46

Could someone possibly use their trusty multimeter clap and grab an amperage reading from the utility input to compare notes while I wait for my RMS power meter? (No load, full battery or solar charing only)

Thank you in advance!
Kevin

User avatar
Tejota
Noobie
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue, 29 Nov 2016, 12:07
Real Name: MDKTejota
Location: Spain
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Tejota » Sat, 24 Dec 2016, 07:46

Scott wrote:
coulomb wrote: after looking at your photos again


Thanks for the photos, they're very helpful.

That black box is a relay (see here) and it looks to me like they're routing it out to the RJ45 on pins 3,4,5 although it's difficult to see clearly with all the silkscreen.

Image

I haven't measured but I'm pretty sure the HFPW pins are 'high frequency power' which drive the primary side of the isolation transformer. The secondary side would the be center tapped and the two zener diodes clamp it to plus and minus 12VDC for the RS232 voltages. The two caps would then smooth the two supplies.

I managed to find a destructive test report that had photos of the '2012' board. It doesn't use the separate 2 way HFPW connector but still uses HFPW+ on the other 6 way connector. I assume that the + line wrt ground will generate enough power to drive the RS232 line, but not enough to drive an external display. It doesn't look like there's any power line on the 2012 board's RJ45 at all.

Here's the photos I have of all the boards, the dates on the transformers match up.
Image

EDIT: Added photos of 2015 board

[ Edit Coulomb: added 2016 board below. It's from a 3 kVA machine, in case it matters. Thanks to RiaanH for the images. ]

Image


Could I use 2015 comm board on 2013 PIP instead 2013 comm board? I mean, I need USB port on 2013 PIP (mine is manufactured on March 2014 but It has got 2013 comm board picture). I must do hole to adapt usb connector but no problem. I think switch power conn is only to manage dry connect relay so I wouldnt need this conn. Rest of internal conn are the same as 2015, 2013 comm boards.
Any advise?

solamahn
Groupie
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu, 18 Jun 2015, 00:09
Real Name: Julian Leach
Location: PNG

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by solamahn » Sun, 25 Dec 2016, 18:26

New firmware 72.70 has 2 extra programs. 32 and 38. Anyone know what they do
Solamahn PNG

solamahn
Groupie
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu, 18 Jun 2015, 00:09
Real Name: Julian Leach
Location: PNG

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by solamahn » Sun, 25 Dec 2016, 18:34

Old type scc can be connected to new type main pcb. New type scc can be connected to new type main pcb if the spade connectors of one inductor are removed and joined to 2 longer wires. New type scc cannot be easily connected to old type main pcb.
Solamahn PNG

User avatar
Tejota
Noobie
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue, 29 Nov 2016, 12:07
Real Name: MDKTejota
Location: Spain
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Tejota » Sun, 25 Dec 2016, 22:26

solamahn wrote: New firmware 72.70 has 2 extra programs. 32 and 38. Anyone know what they do


32 param is bulk charging time. Options: Automatic (default) or time (5-900 minutes)

38 param is enabled or disabled to change dry connect purpose. If disabled (default) you can use dry connect to manage generator support or something like that with battery voltage conditions, but if 38 is enabled you can dry connect in another way: for example trigger the grounding box to connect neutral and grounding of AC output together.

User avatar
Tejota
Noobie
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue, 29 Nov 2016, 12:07
Real Name: MDKTejota
Location: Spain
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Tejota » Sun, 25 Dec 2016, 22:53

solamahn wrote: Old type scc can be connected to new type main pcb. New type scc can be connected to new type main pcb if the spade connectors of one inductor are removed and joined to 2 longer wires. New type scc cannot be easily connected to old type main pcb.


Do you talk about different comm board??

I think compatibility is only mechanical between comm board 2013-2016 if you dont use dry connect.

solamahn
Groupie
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu, 18 Jun 2015, 00:09
Real Name: Julian Leach
Location: PNG

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by solamahn » Sun, 25 Dec 2016, 23:58

No. Main pcb. Old and new type. SCC pcb. Old and new type
Solamahn PNG

solamahn
Groupie
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu, 18 Jun 2015, 00:09
Real Name: Julian Leach
Location: PNG

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by solamahn » Mon, 26 Dec 2016, 00:28

What does automatic do
Solamahn PNG

User avatar
Tejota
Noobie
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue, 29 Nov 2016, 12:07
Real Name: MDKTejota
Location: Spain
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Tejota » Mon, 26 Dec 2016, 01:59

solamahn wrote: What does automatic do


The same as previous firmwares.
32 param is only setup if param 5 is in USE mode.

Time in 32 param is to equalization batt. If you want to equalizer batt bank manually you can set up param 5 to USE, param 26 to equal voltage and param 32 to time to equal voltage.
Of course param 1 to Uti to constant equal. voltage.

At the end manual equalization you must restore normal param to bulk voltage.

I mean 32 param is to manual equalization when you set up time.

[ Edit Coulomb: removed earlier edit. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Wed, 28 Dec 2016, 04:39, edited 1 time in total.

paulvk
Groupie
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri, 23 Oct 2015, 23:45
Real Name: Paul
Location: Sydney

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Mon, 26 Dec 2016, 02:55

The 38 param is important if you have it plugged into a utility supply with an earthed neutral as it disconnects the utility neutral when in inverter mode so you need to connect one to its neutral output but when it switches to utility you need to remove that earth so you do not have two earths on the neutral.
I sent them a long explanation and links to other manufactures and rules here & other countries to show them why they need this.

Note other units made here do not switch the neutral which is ok if its hard wired.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3677
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Mon, 26 Dec 2016, 22:52

paulvk wrote: I sent them a long explanation and links to other manufactures and rules here & other countries to show them why they need this.

Good to know that they are willing to change the firmware [ Edit: and perhaps the hardware ] if the argument and need is clear enough. Good on you for doing that.
Last edited by coulomb on Mon, 26 Dec 2016, 11:53, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

joaquinsfy
Noobie
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri, 16 Dec 2016, 06:56
Real Name: joaquin
Location: barcelona

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by joaquinsfy » Wed, 28 Dec 2016, 06:02

Sorry, if this question is too silly... i spend a lot of time looking for the answer and i can't find it.

I have a new PIP4048MS, and i want just test it without batteries and without PV input, i connected 220v AC input, and when i press the button to power on, nothing happens, it's normal?

Thanks guys.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3677
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Wed, 28 Dec 2016, 18:41

joaquinsfy wrote: Sorry, if this question is too silly... i spend a lot of time looking for the answer and i can't find it.
It confuses me too.
I have a new PIP4048MS, and i want just test it without batteries and without PV input, i connected 220v AC input, and when i press the button to power on, nothing happens, it's normal?

That's about right. The processor is actually running when there is power from either or both utility or PV, but for whatever reason it doesn't turn the display on.

The firmware actually checks if the battery reads under 30.0 V, and if so it sets a variable called g_uwStartupWithoutBattery. But all that seems to do is to make sure the machine runs in bypass mode (if it's a single machine, parameter 28 is SiG). So you might hear a faint click from the relay.

The best way to test it without having to build a battery and fuses and all that is to use a dual 30 V current limiting power supply, with each half in series, set to around 25 V per half (the total needs to be at least 36.0 V). Use this on the battery terminals to allow the LCD to come on. Alas, many people don't have one of these laying around, and they are a bit expensive (~ $200) to buy just to test the machine.

I agree that it's frustrating, and I don't know why they do this.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

joaquinsfy
Noobie
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri, 16 Dec 2016, 06:56
Real Name: joaquin
Location: barcelona

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by joaquinsfy » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 00:48

@coloumb, of course, you are right, i use a battery 48vdc (13s4p 18650 ) and the display turns on, and the PIP works, first step acomplish with your help, thanks.

Now, i will read again the 58 pages, to know what kind of firmware i will need to charge my 18650 powerwall, 14S80P 200aH, Thanks again and Happy New Year

rinaldoparaipan
Noobie
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon, 26 Oct 2015, 03:26
Real Name: Dan Paraipan
Location: Romania
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by rinaldoparaipan » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 11:05

Tejota wrote:
solamahn wrote: New firmware 72.70 has 2 extra programs. 32 and 38. Anyone know what they do


32 param is bulk charging time. Options: Automatic (default) or time (5-900 minutes)

That is a good information.It seems that we had a good feed-back to our emails sent to MPP Solar.We asked them to include that parameter.
Unfortunately, my last inverters installed has 72.60 CPU version.
I will try an upgrade. Image Image

User avatar
Tejota
Noobie
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue, 29 Nov 2016, 12:07
Real Name: MDKTejota
Location: Spain
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Tejota » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 12:05

rinaldoparaipan wrote:
Tejota wrote:
solamahn wrote: New firmware 72.70 has 2 extra programs. 32 and 38. Anyone know what they do


32 param is bulk charging time. Options: Automatic (default) or time (5-900 minutes)

That is a good information.It seems that we had a good feed-back to our emails sent to MPP Solar.We asked them to include that parameter.
Unfortunately, my last inverters installed has 72.60 CPU version.
I will try an upgrade. Image Image
Have you got 72.70 firmware to upgrade?

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3677
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 13:44

joaquinsfy wrote: Now, i will read again the 58 pages, to know what kind of firmware i will need to charge my 18650 powerwall, 14S80P 200aH

Sounds painful! I would say you need the lead-acid patched firmware, using custom voltages of course (parameter 05, battery type = USE). The lead-acid patch should really be called the "non-LiFePO₄" patch, but it doesn't fit on the display as nicely as Pb Image

As Weber has noted. the essential difference is that LiFePO₄ has the very flat voltage versus SOC curve, and practically every other chemistry has a wider variation of voltage with SOC.

But perhaps your machine is new enough to have the 72.70 DSP firmware, and maybe they've fixed the charging bug by now. You can find your DSP firmware revision by powering up the LCD and cycling to the U1 display page.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
lopez
Noobie
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon, 21 Jul 2008, 00:08
Real Name: John Lopez
Location: Blacktown

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by lopez » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 14:11

Just wanted to know how much power the PIP4048MS draws from the grid?

EDITED: under no load? just trying to find out how many kwh/day it imports from the grid just from simply connecting to the grid but not using it to power the house load. Does anybody know? Thanks.
Last edited by lopez on Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 07:22, edited 1 time in total.
John Lopez Solaris

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3677
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 15:32

Have you got 72.70 firmware to upgrade?

I don't, and I for one would be interested in any pointers.
Last edited by coulomb on Fri, 30 Dec 2016, 05:56, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

Post Reply