PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Dec 2016, 04:57

joaquinsfy wrote: Hi,

My name is Joaquin Custodio, from Barcelona, Spain.
Hi, Joaquin, and welcome.
Can i use the PIP-4048MS to charge the packs using AC from the utility?
Sure, you can pump current into the battery from the utility AC input. As to whether it is safe or not to charge those 18650 cells, I don't know. Since you mention 14S, I assume that's a 4.2 V chemistry; my understanding is that these are not so trivial to charge safely. I think you need a temperature sensor to do it properly.

If Peter Matthews is using a PCM60X, then you essentially have one of those inside your PIP. The firmware can also turn the inverter around so that it charges the battery; during this time, the utility is also powering the loads. You can be charging from solar and utility at the same time. They do a pretty good job of getting the two chargers (utility and solar) to co-operate.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by lopez » Sat, 17 Dec 2016, 06:07

Thermal run-away is a safety concern. Safer to use Lifepo4.

18650 cell thermal runaway event.   

Battery University - Safety concerns of lithium ion.
Last edited by lopez on Fri, 16 Dec 2016, 19:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by rinaldoparaipan » Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 02:59

Joaquin did you think how to balance the elements?

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Post by joaquinsfy » Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 04:11

Hi Rinaldo

I'm still thinking about balancing, there are people that say it's needed a BMs, other people say it's not needed (jehu garcia) and talks about bottom balancing, another guys talk about top balancing, in my ignorance I can't understand why there so many criteria difference, but I will try to read and understand more before take a decisition.


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Post by Northland » Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 11:03

Both methods are bad, so I invented dynamic balancing

dynamic balancing of Lithium
Last edited by Northland on Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 00:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by joaquinsfy » Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 13:16


@Northland, i like the idea of your balancing, and i love your videos too.

Do you have plans to show how it's made your arduino bms?

Thanks for your work!

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Post by weber » Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 23:51

Northland, I note that the flat-in-the-middle voltage vs SoC curve doesn't apply to all lithium-ion chemistries. Only LiFePO4 has this feature.

The balancing method you describe is a good one, and can be applied to all chemistries, whether flat-in-the-middle or not. But you don't want to do it at both the top and the bottom. The cells will all have slightly different capacities, so balancing them at one end unbalances them at the other end. So in practice you would only do it near the top, for the same reasons of convenience you gave for other types of top vs bottom balancing. So in practice it would be a variety of top balancing.

An additional refinement, if you can do it, is to have your BMS control the current output of your charger, using a PI control loop, based on the voltage of your highest cell, so as to keep it from going above the chosen threshold (e.g. 3.6 V). Eventually the current will get backed off to whatever the cell-monitoring-unit can bypass. Then you wait until all are bypassing before terminating charge.

The important thing when using any kind of top balancing is to monitor the voltages of individual cells and stop discharge when any one goes below the chosen threshold (e.g. 2.5 V).

Another refinement is to compensate these thresholds based on the voltage drops and rises due to internal resistance as I described in a previous post in this thread. In other words, don't panic if the voltage of a cell is high, if it's purely due to it being charged at a high rate. And don't panic if the voltage of a cell is low, if it's purely due to it being discharged at a high rate.
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Post by Tejota » Mon, 19 Dec 2016, 11:10

weber wrote:
Tejota wrote: Problem solved: Param 29 is not configurable when you put AGM in param 5.
Ah yes. Well found. Params 26 and 27 (absorb and float voltages) aren't configurable then either. The same occurs when you put Fld in param 5.
Would you change to USE mode instead AGM mode?

Yes. But you must then make sure you have suitable values in Params 26, 27 and 29, for your AGM battery. There is no other difference between AGM, Fld and uSE.

Coulomb and I were foolishly considering the LiFePO4 version of the patched firmware, when you had clearly told us you were using the lead-acid version, which does not change the range of any parameter.


Ok.
Another problem with this firmware 72.60A lead-acid version: If I setup:
Param 1: sbu
Param 5: use
Param 12: 47
Param 26: 57
Param 27: 54
Param 29: 46
Inverter is shutdown with 49V in batt.   Why??

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Post by weber » Mon, 19 Dec 2016, 14:37

Tejota wrote:Ok.
Another problem with this firmware 72.60A lead-acid version: If I setup:
Param 1: sbu
Param 5: use
Param 12: 47
Param 26: 57
Param 27: 54
Param 29: 46
Inverter is shutdown with 49V in batt.   Why??


Because of param 29 (low voltage cut off) set to 46 V, the inverter shut off when the battery went below 46 V under load, for more than 10 seconds. After the inverter shut off, and so the load was removed, the battery voltage recovered to 49 V. But the battery must get to 4 V above param 29, i.e. 50 V before the inverter will come back on.

This is the same behaviour as the original firmware.
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Post by paulvk » Tue, 20 Dec 2016, 15:16

weber wrote:
Tejota wrote: This is the same behaviour as the original firmware.


Yes and all I wanted to do was boil the kettle!
It should be more like 10 min instead of 10 seconds.

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Post by kmh5147 » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 20:19

Hi All,

I just setup a pip4048 and connected 8 - 170ah PowerSafe 12v AGM Batteries(2 string), and I'm noticing something that seems a little odd. The inverter is currently only connected to charge the battery bank from utility, nothing is connected to the AC Output and I seem to be pulling 600 watts from the utility. I've connected to the inverters com-port and the battery appears to be completely charged. This sounds like quite a bit of consumption considering it should be in float mode. What do you guys think? Thank you in advance!


Image

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Post by weber » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 20:32

Hi kmh5147,

What is your battery voltage and current with the 600 watts going in?
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Post by kmh5147 » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 20:52

Hi weber! The voltage is 54.1 and the current 0.0a per my Comm connection.

Thanks,
Kevin

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Post by weber » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:02

Is it the PIP LCD that's telling you you're pulling 600 watts?
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Post by kmh5147 » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:07

No, I have an eyedro with line clamps on the ac coming from my utility service panel to the pip.

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Post by kmh5147 » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:11

I've tested the eyedro on another circuit, and it's accurate.

Here's a screenshot

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6_SC1 ... p=drivesdk

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Post by weber » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:37

Devices like the eyedro are not true power meters. They merely rectify the current and multiply it by a fixed voltage. They can be fooled badly by spiky current waveforms. A PIP-4048MS doing nothing consumes about 50 watts. If the PIP was really consuming 600 watts, and putting out no electrical power, then it would all be turning to heat. That amount of heat being generated inside the PIP would be hard to miss.
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Post by kmh5147 » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:41

Great advice! Do you have any recommendations on a way to capture what it's actually consuming?

Thank you for the help, I've been perplexed for the past few hours.

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Post by rinaldoparaipan » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 23:52

weber wrote:
Tejota wrote:Ok.
Another problem with this firmware 72.60A lead-acid version: If I setup:
Param 1: sbu
Param 5: use
Param 12: 47
Param 26: 57
Param 27: 54
Param 29: 46
Inverter is shutdown with 49V in batt.   Why??


Because of param 29 (low voltage cut off) set to 46 V, the inverter shut off when the battery went below 46 V under load, for more than 10 seconds. After the inverter shut off, and so the load was removed, the battery voltage recovered to 49 V. But the battery must get to 4 V above param 29, i.e. 50 V before the inverter will come back on.

This is the same behaviour as the original firmware.

Is the inverter connected to the public grid?(eg-what do you have at AC in?)
Because, if you have a load "spike" ,the voltage drops below 47V(see param 12), returns to 49V after the spike disappear, and will go back to battery depending on Param 13.
I think this could be another reason.
Last edited by rinaldoparaipan on Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 12:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by weber » Thu, 22 Dec 2016, 05:24

kmh5147 wrote: Great advice! Do you have any recommendations on a way to capture what it's actually consuming?

Thank you for the help, I've been perplexed for the past few hours.

You're welcome, Kevin. I'm sorry I haven't found a good solution for that. But what you're looking for is a "single-phase true-RMS power meter".

This might do the job.
http://www.dhgate.com/product/5-65-a-22 ... |712670759
It's designed to be wired into a switchboard by an electrician.

Here one that plugs in,
https://shop.ata.org.au/shop/power-mate-15a
but it has Australian plugs and sockets and could not take the full current of a PIP that's powering the maximum load _and_ charging a battery.
Last edited by weber on Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 18:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by kmh5147 » Fri, 23 Dec 2016, 18:46

Could someone possibly use their trusty multimeter clap and grab an amperage reading from the utility input to compare notes while I wait for my RMS power meter? (No load, full battery or solar charing only)

Thank you in advance!
Kevin

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Post by solamahn » Sun, 25 Dec 2016, 18:26

New firmware 72.70 has 2 extra programs. 32 and 38. Anyone know what they do
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Post by solamahn » Sun, 25 Dec 2016, 18:34

Old type scc can be connected to new type main pcb. New type scc can be connected to new type main pcb if the spade connectors of one inductor are removed and joined to 2 longer wires. New type scc cannot be easily connected to old type main pcb.
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Post by Tejota » Sun, 25 Dec 2016, 22:26

solamahn wrote: New firmware 72.70 has 2 extra programs. 32 and 38. Anyone know what they do


32 param is bulk charging time. Options: Automatic (default) or time (5-900 minutes)

38 param is enabled or disabled to change dry connect purpose. If disabled (default) you can use dry connect to manage generator support or something like that with battery voltage conditions, but if 38 is enabled you can dry connect in another way: for example trigger the grounding box to connect neutral and grounding of AC output together.

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Post by Tejota » Sun, 25 Dec 2016, 22:53

solamahn wrote: Old type scc can be connected to new type main pcb. New type scc can be connected to new type main pcb if the spade connectors of one inductor are removed and joined to 2 longer wires. New type scc cannot be easily connected to old type main pcb.


Do you talk about different comm board??

I think compatibility is only mechanical between comm board 2013-2016 if you dont use dry connect.

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