Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

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Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

Post by jackhyq » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 06:40

Dear My friend,
     Thanks for your attention!
     We obtained your name and address from the international internet .
And we know that you are interested in batteries .Now we are writing to you to hope establish business relations with you.    
     Our Group mainly produced LiFePo4 battery,5C~33C Li-polymer,Li-ion battery,Cylindrical battery,VRLA(Motorcycle ,Automobile ,UPS battery and so on ) or GEL battery,and battery pack such as laptop
battery,digital camera battery,camcorder battery,PDA battery,mobile phone battery and and so on .
     Please let us know immediately if you are interested in our products.
     Thanks again!
     Yours faithfully,
      Jack


Last edited by jackhyq on Thu, 01 Jan 2009, 09:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BjBlaster » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 06:48

F$#@ I hate spam.
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Post by jackhyq » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 06:54

You hate ,but so more person and companies need this info.
Sorry to disturb you !!!
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Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

Post by Andrew » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 07:00

jackhyq wrote:Sorry to disturb you !!!


You will be mate! Very sorry indeed. Image What makes you think that you can spam here? GET A LIFE!!

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Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

Post by antiscab » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 07:02

Hi Jack,

You have found the create your own thread function, this is good.
Please stick to this thread for discussion of your cells.
I will be deleting your other posts shortly, please do not actively try and make sales on all threads, as this clogs the discussion. If someone posts a question specifically about your cells, or to do with a battery you sell, then a reply is considered acceptable use, unsolicited sales material is not.

The association has a neutral viewpoint with regard to individual vendors. Given that this is a form for technical discussion, this thread is allowable, however, try and keep the posts factual.

thankyou
regards,
Matt
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Post by antiscab » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 07:04

looks like you found the posts aswell andrew....i couldve sworn i hadnt hit the delete all posts buttons yet
Matt
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Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

Post by Andrew » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 07:07

Image yeah Matt, keeping an eye on things as usual Image


hmmm... should we delete him too?
Last edited by Andrew on Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 07:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by antiscab » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 07:22

tempting.

Jack: bewarned, further spam on other threads will result in account termination.

Matt
Last edited by antiscab on Mon, 03 Nov 2008, 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

Post by jackhyq » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 07:41

Why delect my topic ? so more person and companies still find lifepo4 cell battery manufactory, but you ... i don't know how to do ,any good idea to let so clients to know that ?
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Post by antiscab » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 07:56

the posts on the other threads were deleted because they are spam.
spam is exceptionally counter-productive as a sales technique.
i am willing to allow this thread (it is still public and searchable from places such as google), as long as you don't make sales pitches on the other threads.

good ways to find clients are:
having specific cells tested independantly.
here in Australia Ian has tested a few and made the results public.
Ill find a link in a moment, (they seems to be missing from my bookmarks..Ian?).

better still, post a link to other testing.
do you have previous customers?

ebay is a good place to start if you are relatively new to the market, or this segment of the market. seller ping has had good success in this area (even though in china he was already a well established battery merchant, moving to internation sales is similar to starting over again)
battery sales tends to happen gradually, usually one person will "take a risk" and buy, and report back to the others.

all battery retailers have started this way.

Matt
Last edited by antiscab on Mon, 03 Nov 2008, 21:00, edited 1 time in total.
Matt
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Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

Post by lithbattboss » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 14:41

I think people can see what I mean regarding my earlier comments on another thread about the proliferation of cheap (and mostly inferior performance) lithium ion batteries coming from all the new battery factories in China.
There are hundreds of these factories scattered all over China.
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Post by Gow864 » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 17:17

The problem is that the Chinese producers will see what they have to do to compete successfully (better quality etc etc..). They will respond.to the demands.

There is also the fact that practically any LiFePO4 battery will be light years better than the SLA's they're probably replacing. Price, that's it. it's down to price. Especially in the current economic climate.

Anyway isn't competition the buyers best friend?
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Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

Post by acmotor » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 17:39

Lithbattboss,
No disrepect to you but...
IMHO, Your product is seriously overpriced given the materials and labour used in its production. (please don't try to defend it, it will be wasted on me) Product claims are good but will struggle to be trialled due to price in EVs in Oz.

It will be the Chinese masses that clear the way for realistic pricing even if we have to go through reliability issues along the way.
Oz has just 'firesaled' some iron ore to China. Time for some return business.
If you seriously believe in your product then bring the price down before the market kicks you down.

As I say IMHO.
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Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

Post by Johny » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 17:47

I agree with acmotor. You have made your point. Please don't always be hanging around the corner to jump on every lithium battery post.

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Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

Post by Andrew » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 18:21

jackhyq wrote: Why delect my topic ? so more person and companies still find lifepo4 cell battery manufactory, but you ... i don't know how to do ,any good idea to let so clients to know that ?


Your posts were deleted due to your un-professional manner of introducing yourself on our forums. Sometimes it's good to read our basic rules first.

We are happy to leave this topic running and allow our members to comment and make queries regarding your product and business. However you must understand that spamming in here will only stir us up and will result in your posts and account being deleted permanently.

I hope you take a more professional approach in the future.

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Post by jackhyq » Tue, 04 Nov 2008, 23:54

Sorry to bring the troubles on so more friends eyes.
It is so pleasure to get yours items ,and design for every client specially ,is there any person or companies which really need the batteries ,BMS ,Charger ? Please add my MSN or skype or email ,and
we can keep in touch !
thanks!
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Post by jackhyq » Fri, 07 Nov 2008, 06:04

as you know LiFe battery quantity is not like Li-ion or Li-Polymer battery ,the cost can not be down until now ,
there is so more distant about quality and service .
1.so more companies want to produce this for new products and benefit ,but no good material and technical to produce them,

2.leadting this result because above reasons, more client out of china find more china's factories and middleman ,actually clients
don't know the truth ,and real factory with good material and technical want to sell their products ,but the price had been lower
than their cost ,

3. most of clients care about the price ,but price based on the quality and service , different discharge current with different price ,
like poly bag (prismatic) ,applicate in ebike and escooter ,1.5C continuous to 3C/5C burst is ok ,as we know 1C just 60seconds,
5C continuous to 10C burst for special application ,cylindrical 18650-1200mAh,26650-2200mAH most of them applicated in power tools ,
not use in ebike and escooter because of weight and cost .

4. So now our company just give power solution like design depends on client's requirements ,not give $$$/Ah ,that action is so
irresponsible,although price evaluated depends on that $$$/Ah ,and how about BMS and charger ?

5.and although any lifepo4 factory met the patent problems ,but not so good way to avoid this ,so everyone treat it as nothing .
If anyone still want to know the price of your application ,we can send just cell's lists to you firstly ,and then please let us know your
voltage ,capacity ,dimension and weight ,continuous discharge current,burst discharge current and space time ,and charge time ,cycle life,
and then we can recommend the suitable cells for you,and let you know the price ,how to pack ,use what kind of box ,BMS ,Charger ,appro
weigh and dimension ... Please contact me by email or skype other way ,it is so pleasure to service for you .

Of course we can offer cells for every clients ,you can pack them by yourself with BMS and charger ,it is simple for our cell manufactory to do .
And now lower price is not good about quality and service, you can research and test the actual discharge characteristic ,you will know the
real truth . If don't have any research and test ,our action is doing the special spam for that company or factory virtually,right ?

So don't believe T* battery,Hi** battery's price ...., just believe your research and testing.
I don't want to depriciate any company or praise our company's products.
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Post by AMPrentice » Mon, 10 Nov 2008, 18:54

Problem is most companies from china build all cells by hand.
Then they ask what quality you want or the price you want to pay.
This is a way to get rid of the lower quality cells to privateers
and keep the good ones for manufacturers.

When batteries are mass produced with the least human interaction
then the quality will be there and also price will go down.

When your companies does this then let us know not otherwise.

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Post by jackhyq » Mon, 10 Nov 2008, 21:16

Actually automatica machines produce the battery cells ,the cost
maybe more than hand , if use auto machines to procue but must need more quantity to support ,ok ?
of course we have auto machine ,not quality problems. I think A123 or valence's quality is not good than other hands factory in china .
As we know we produce poly bag prismatic LiFe battery cell ,not cylindrical battery cells,and we had used auto machines to produce,but not so quantity ,is it waste ?
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Post by Johny » Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 19:40

I emailed Jack for a price on a 576 volt, 20 ah pack and he just responded:

----------------------
Dear John,
    Thanks for your information.
Sorry to reply later becauaes email box problems.
According to your voltage , now we just can offer the cells for you ,
there is no parterner who produce BMS and charger like your voltage in china now ,
---FOB Shenzhen : (Exchange rate Usd$1:RMB6.8)
---20Ah,3.2V,LiFe battery cell, Usd$35.3/cell
---Samples: available with payment
---MOQ:
---Lead time : within 15days with cell stock ,within 35days without cell stock,
---Payment: T/T 30% deposite ,balance 70% before shipping
---Available within 7days.
    Any problems ,please let us know asap!
    Thanks again.
    Jack

--------------------------
So about US$6800 for my 192 cell pack.

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Post by jackhyq » Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 20:07

John,
   Thanks for your help to post my quotation in forum.
I am waiting for your news. Image
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Post by Richo » Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 20:46

USD$6354 sounds ok but depends on battery spec
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by woody » Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 21:55

Hi Jack,

the 20Ah cells aren't on your site, can post some more specs (C, size, weight)?

It has become common to split (using contactors) a high voltage pack into blocks of about 48-72V for charging and safety, a pack of 576V would be 12 packs of 16 cells joined together serially.

Can you provide a price for BMS + charger for such a setup?

cheers,
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Post by Johny » Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 22:28

Is this it woody?

http://www.ponilion.com/Products/LiFePo ... atical.htm

There appear to be 2 of 20 ah.

I think he was saying that he couldn't offer the full pack or BMS (which I enquired about) so it's just 3.2 V cells.

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Post by acmotor » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 06:27

part              V    mAh       dim                                    g    mOhm
PLPF70173248 3.2 20000 248 173 7.0±0.2 7.0±0.2 560     12
PLPF14173248 3.2 20000 248 173 14.3±0.2 14.0±0.2 1120    8

Jack, which one are you quoting on ?


Just thinking about ESR,

If you have an EV drawing say 60A (3C) on pack then at 8mOhm ESR then voltage = (192 x 3.2) - (60 x .008 x 192) = V
              614 - 92 = 522V   15% droop

522V x 60 A = 31kW useful power

This would work in my EV



The other battery was 12mOhm so at 60 A
voltage = (192 x 3.2) - (60 x .012 x 192) = V
                  614 - 138 = 476V 23% droop

476V x 60 A = 28kW - you might as well run series DC and a gearbox as well to throw more power away !

This wouldn't work in my EV as 476V will cause low voltage shutdown of controller i.e. too much battery sag, so use 8mOhm cells.

Looking at 40Ah TS cells I measure droop at 0.16V/C so at 3C droop is 15% (ESR ~ .48/120 = 4mOhm) so very much the same ratio as the lower ESR of the cells offered here (8mOhm in 20Ah).

I know my TS are 40Ah but consider Ah when choosing cells for EV.
At 60A as in example above, my 40Ah pack droops only ...
(say I was using 192 cells at 1.5C as in above example)
voltage = (192 x 3.2) - (60 x .004 x 192) = V
                  614 - 46 = 568V 7.5% droop

568V x 60 A = 34kW useful power and not too much loss.



Help me here, I must be missing something ! Am I looking a the right cells on Jacks's web site ?

The 8mOhm cells are 1.12kg for 20Ah ?C ~ US1.75/Ah
TS are 1.5kg for 40Ah 3C (5C burst) and 4mOhm ~ US$1.20/Ah
So Jack's cells are heavier per kWh (less specific energy) than TS.

Higher C discharge rating is only going to be useful if the ESR is also lower.
I would buy a 20Ah pack if the ESR ratio to Ah was less than half that of TS cells.
That is, I am prepared to have half the range for half the price but not half of half the range and with less power !

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