PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

non-EV Solar, Wind and other renewable power sources
non-EV batteries and other energy storage stuff
Forum rules
Important!
This forum is for discussion of Non-EV matters.
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2936
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber »

offgridQLD wrote:... when it plays up the charger was ramping between min charge rate and max charge rate (3.3kw) The stock EVSE won't do this unless the pilot signal is telling it to. So I think the PIP is interfering with the pilot signal (sometimes but not every time).
I agree the EMI filter is worth a try.

But I can imagine a scenario in which it will go to 3300 W briefly without being told to. It's what I called "chasing each other's tails".

The charger is drawing no current and suddenly decides to draw 9.5 A (2200 W). This causes the inverter output voltage to plummet below 230 V. I'm talking about RMS values over a few cycles here, not instantaneous values of the waveform. A dumb load like the air compressor just waits for the PIP to get its act together and increase its average PWM duty cycle to bring the voltage back up to 230 V. But a smart load like the iMiev charger may decide it's dealing with a low mains voltage and ramp up its own average PWM duty cycle to draw more current and attempt to maintain 2200 W. e.g. If the voltage fell to 160 V it might draw 14 A. Then the PIP increases its PWM duty cycle to get back to 230 V and the charger finds itself pulling 3300 W. The charger then backs off its PWM to reduce its current, which causes the PIP voltage to overshoot and so the PIP backs off its PWM. And around and around they go.

I don't know whether that's what's happening, but it's a possibility that hasn't been ruled out yet.
Last edited by weber on Mon, 13 Apr 2015, 06:17, edited 1 time in total.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3749
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Johny »

weber wrote: I don't know whether that's what's happening, but it's a possibility.
I think that the "chasing their tails" is about right but remember that acmotor did some testing and found that the iMiev didn't increase mains current with lower mains voltage. It appeared to be very smart about not causing a current avalanche if there was a high resistance mains connection.

A decent mains filter would help find the issue but that's not something that most of us have lying around. Does the PIP have a reasonable filter on it's output or is it full of high frequency rubbish?
User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD »

"the charger is drawing no current and suddenly decides to draw 9.5 A (2200 W)"

The charger has a very soft ramp when it begins to charge. Its not a sudden shock load at 9.5A. It ramps up from 0 - 2200w over 5 second or so.

"I think that the "chasing their tails" is about right but remember that acmotor did some testing and found that the iMiev didn't increase mains current with lower mains voltage. It appeared to be very smart about not causing a current avalanche if there was a high resistance mains connection."

Yes I remember that post with the huge extension cord and the low voltage the Imiev just reduced the wattage but the current was the same.

Kurt


User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD »

Link to one of ACmotors, AC voltage tests on the Imiev charger

viewtopic.php?title=imiev-charger-power ... age&t=3786

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 13 Apr 2015, 06:38, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2936
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber »

Well that certainly blows that particular version of "chasing each other's tails" out of the water. And I can't think of another one.

Unless perhaps the EVSE is disconnecting at low voltage. I guess you'd see a LED blinking or hear a relay clicking if that was happening.

You could try a $10 10A EMI filter from Jaycar. It might not last long in continuous use but it might be enough to prove that's what's needed.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/Passive-Compon ... r/p/MS4001
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD »

The EVSE had a solid LED and I am 99% sure the charge was always active. The fact that I see 3300w load for any amount of time when Using a sub 10A EVSE is making me lean towards the pilot signal interference. As the EVSE under normal operation will never command this from the charger.

I don't mind trying the Jaycar EMI filter. Not a big risk if it doesn't work.

Kurt



Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 13 Apr 2015, 07:23, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3614
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by acmotor »

Kurt, I have never seen or logged the pause in 74,000km. That doesn't mean that it hasn't happened of course. I might have been asleep on the majority of 10A charges that weren't logged.

Can you check your logs and see what the battery temperatures,voltages, start SOC etc were at the pause time ? I am struggling to understand why mitsi would intentionally extend the charging time unless there was a battery pack condition that required it.
Half my charges are at 2.2kW and the other half at 3.3kW. I have never been below 1bar and plan to avoid fast DC charging.

Re a filter.....
just run the PIP power through that old UPS you have in bypass mode. It has a reasonable set of filter components inline.
Alternatively, many switchmode power supplies have good mains input filters internally. Find a 10A input rated one and hotwire that part of the circuit.

Weber, yes, you describe the tail chase of DC-DCs well. I am sadly aware of many situations where constant power devices are unstable. That is why I posted a few years back that I was pleased that the imiev charger was constant input current.
converted RedSuzi, the first industrial AC induction motor conversion
on to iMiEV MY12 did 114,463km
now Tesla Model 3, 4/2021 MIC pearl white
User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD »

"Kurt, I have never seen or logged the pause in 74,000km. That doesn't mean that it hasn't happened of course. I might have been asleep on the majority of 10A charges that weren't logged"

Every single charge from new it has had the pause the same as others have reported. Mid winter or Summer all the same . I don't keep logs of all my charging with canion.

Just keep tabs on it your self next time you charge your car up from say 20% soc. It will defanatly do it before it gets to 50% SOC.You have most likely walked away or gone to bed by the time it pauses. I charge a lot In the day time and while it is charging I have a big wattage graphics dial on my tablet in the kitchen so I see the dial drop by 2200w and notice the pause every time.

So unless you have a visual indication of the load or log the entire charge you wouldn't notice it.( though you would think after 75k worth of driving you would have stumbled across it one time or another when you had a power meter on the EVSE)

Thanks for the tip on the old APC UPS in bypass mode. That's in the power room top shelf of the cabinet doing nothing...good memory!



Kurt

Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 13 Apr 2015, 08:18, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3614
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by acmotor »

OK, I will specifically look for the pause with canion though it has never captured one before.
Strange, I nearly always have a power meter in line and half my charges are daytime. Yep, may simply never been there at the right time.

BTW, if you are in the pause time, what happens if you unplug the J1772 and plug it back in again ? Does the charge simply start again ? or does the pause time continue until finished ? that is, was there a reason for the pause ?
converted RedSuzi, the first industrial AC induction motor conversion
on to iMiEV MY12 did 114,463km
now Tesla Model 3, 4/2021 MIC pearl white
User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD »

Ac motor if I had to give a guide on when it happens. I would say when charging from around 20% SOC it would happen within the first hr or two so or before you reach 6 bars.

I haven't payed much attention to it other than noticing it the day I got my car. I then looked up the behavior and found it was common so didn't look into it. 6-20 mins out of a 5hr charge is easily hidden. I would say it's closer to 6 mins in most of my charges.

I don't think it's abnormal behavior or has anything to do with temperature or imbalance or any stress related conditions. If I had to associate something to it I would guess something to do with calibrating the SOC guage...just a guess.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 13 Apr 2015, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.
reecho
Senior Member
Posts: 940
Joined: Sun, 17 Apr 2011, 02:39
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth WA
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by reecho »

2010's have the pause in charging as well....

Image
User avatar
gmacd33
Groupie
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon, 11 Jan 2010, 23:51
Real Name: Greg MacDonald
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gmacd33 »

weber wrote:
Using the protocol that Coulomb and I reverse-engineered yesterday, we can still only raise the inverter cut-off voltage, on-the-fly, to 48 volts. This is one way in which this inverter (and pretty much every other inverter on the planet) fails to cater for LiFePO4 batteries. So we will also need to modify the inverter's voltage-sensing to make it read some voltage above 51.3 V as if it was 48 V.


I'm probably missing something obvious, but why not just use the BMS to control contactors to disconnect the solar panels if a cell goes over voltage, and disconnect the load if a cell goes too low a voltage?

Apologies if this question has already been answered - I'm still reading through the 15 pages on the topic... ;-)
Greg MacDonald
Chief Technical Officer
Lithium Battery Systems
User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD »

I spent some time with the PIP4048 over the weekend. Friday late morning I shut down the Selectronic inverter (It got it's first real rest in 7 years!) I had the little PIP power the entire house and workshop.

I went around turning on different loads. First was all the lights in the workshop 10 x 30w fluorescent tubes (power factor corrected electronic ballest) (300w). No issues there so they stayed on. Next was the Imiev charger (2100w). The house was consuming around 300w base load with a few things on. Then I went inside the house and switched the dual boiler Coffey machine. (2000w+) Every thing was fine roughly 4700w load for a short period. I then turned the tap on at the kitchen sink and the pressure pump came on and tripped the inverter.

So I know the limits of then unit now and no surprises it's listed as a 4000w inverter. I thought why not just give the PIP a run for 24hrs and see what it's like to live with. Part of the reason was to see how having a small base load on the PIP would effect it's reaction to the Ramp up and ramp down of the Imiev charger.

The PIP had no issue with the Initial ramp up of the imiev charger and again no issue at the mid charge pause and ramp up again. All was going well and it ran the normal house loads + the Imiev charger for the rest of the day. Though it had a hickup as the Imiev was ramping down to end if charge. It didn't go as bonkers as the example on video but the output voltage was showing fluctuations. I didn't take note of how small the base load from the house was at the time but I'm sure there was something.

Overall the inverter did a nice job of powering the home. Fridges & freezers started nice and smoothly. Computers, TV's and water pumps ran fine. I did find myself thinking a little before going crazy in the kitchen with multiple large load appliances. All at the same time. I never give it any consideration with the Selectronic. Though the PIP is more than livable particularly as a temporary backup inverter. Two PIPs in parallel would result in carefree appliance, workshop and EV charging use. Though at the expense of 100w idle load vs 60w for the Selectronic and 30w for the later model Selectronic's.

I did pull the 2700w APC commercial UPS out and dust it off but didn't have time to sort out the plugs to try running - filtering the PIPs output through it to see if that helped with the issue. Perhaps next weekend.

Overall I think as mentioned by Webber it's difficult to see what's happening with the PIP using onboard slow digital metering. So I might take you up on that offer to sniff things out with the Scope and analog meters. I do have a scope but a very old and super basic dicksmith unit I got for $3 at a garage sale Image ) The same garage sale I did pick up a stack of analog meters. So I have a 300v range analog volt meter.

On a side note the stock cooling fans on the PIP are ridiculous. I think they might have had a ex hovercraft engineer working on the thermo dynamics design team for the PIP Image The upgrade to quieter fans that was detailed earlyer is essential for personal sanity and most likely any longevity.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 20 Apr 2015, 10:06, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2936
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber »

gmacd33 wrote:I'm probably missing something obvious, but why not just use the BMS to control contactors to disconnect the solar panels if a cell goes over voltage, and disconnect the load if a cell goes too low a voltage?

Apologies if this question has already been answered - I'm still reading through the 15 pages on the topic... ;-)

Hi Greg. You will indeed find the answer given implicitly by my subsequent posts. But I don't mind answering it explicitly. It's a good question.

First I must sadly admit that, in the end, that's all we could do. More specifically, we disconnect all charge sources on overvoltage, overtemperature or undertemperature. Not just the PV array but also the AC input from the petrol generator. And we disconnect loads on undervoltage or overtemperature. And we have a further backup in case of e.g. welded contacts in those contactors, where if things continue to degenerate we open the battery contactor to isolate the battery from everything, requiring human intervention to restart the system.

But you ask why would we want to do other than that.

One reason is that contactors and their cabling cost money. Another is that they are so ... one-bit-binary. We don't protect the cells in our EV in that way. Instead we run a PI-control loop on the stress level of the most stressed cell and have it control the charger or motor controller in such a way that they back off gradually, and this ensures that top balancing completes on every charge.

Some day soon we'll have standalone or hybrid power system inverter/charger/MPPTs that are designed to be controlled in that way, by a BMS, based on the worst cell, not the overall battery voltage. We thought we might be able to do this with the PIP-4048MS, with its serial input that allows us to change the absorb and float voltages on the fly. In fact, Coulomb and I had it all working when charging from the generator or grid. But it wouldn't work when charging from the PV array because it insisted on starting a new MPPT sweep every time we changed the absorb or float voltage setpoint.

Of course with control of the loads, a standalone or hybrid power system has to control them in a binary manner, unlike in an EV where you're allowed to effectively "brown-out" the load. But this should still be do-able by controlling the inverter with serial commands rather than by adding a contactor. We were unable to do that either, since the PIP did not allow the low voltage cutoff to be set high enough for LiFePO4, and the manufacturer turned down our request to increase the range of that parameter.

[Edit: Clarification]
Last edited by weber on Mon, 20 Apr 2015, 18:27, edited 1 time in total.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2936
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber »

Last Saturday I spent the day in the bush, with Black Monolith #1, for the first time since it was installed 81 days previously.

Many of you would have read about the over-reading State-of-Charge meter in the MX-5 thread. In short, the Monolith's SoC meter was underestimating Depth-of-Discharge by exactly half. So 50% SoC was really 0% SoC. So when the customer said the meter had never been below 80%, it actually meant the battery had never been below 60%, which was still very good given that they now had an electric fridge and there had been several consecutive overcast days.

There were a number of other non-critical jobs on the Monolith that I had been saving up, and I decided that fixing the SoC meter was important enough to warrant the 2 hour drive.

On the last day of installation I had failed to take the UV-stable (black sheathed) earth wire and the earth clamps for the PV array mounting frames, with their special anodising-piercing stainless washers. So that was one job.

Another was a change to the BMS software so that the bootstrap-loader would be the same for both EV and solar power system (MeXy and Monolith). The bootstrap-loader includes the code that is called on reset. A CMU or IMU is reset on power-up or by receiving a "break" signal on its serial input. When it is reset, it normally sends a break to the next CMU in the chain. But the IMU was acting as the BMS master in the Monolith (unlike in MeXy which uses a Tritium EVDC as the master), so the Monolith IMU receives from the last CMU as well as sending to the first CMU, thereby forming a loop in which the resetting break signal would endlessly circulate if something wasn't done to prevent it. See the diagram here
viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter& ... 332#p55579

Coulomb and I decided that rather than make a special case for the Monolith BSL code, we would change the ID of the Monolith's IMU from 0 to 255 (the highest possible ID) and would make it so a device with an ID of 255, no matter whether it was an IMU or a CMU, in a solar power system or an EV, would never send a break on reset.

I also agreed to do a complete discharge of the battery until the load contactor shut off, to prove (to the customer) that it would indeed protect the cells in this case, as well as proving the fix to the SoC-meter.

So on arrival I isolated the PV array, connected the laptop to the optic fibres, extracted the logged data (which held no surprises), changed the IMU ID, updated the software, and began the discharge. We ran a vacuum cleaner and a hair-dryer continuously, and the customer repeatedly boiled kettles full of water. The PIP showed 99% load when all three were running. It kept quite cool despite the lower flow rate of the quiet fans we had put into it.

It took around 3 hours, and while it was discharging I installed the earth wires to the array frames, in drizzling rain. I expected it to cut off the loads when the SoC meter was reading around 20%, but it went all the way down to zero and sat there for a while before it tripped off the loads. We rested the cells for about 30 minutes and I measured them all at around 3.27 V which means that they really were around 20% SoC. It seems that the actual capacity of these CALB cells is quite a bit higher than the nominal 180 Ah -- a bonus which, as I explained to the customer, will gradually disappear over the years.

Then because it was late in the day and very overcast, we ran the petrol generator for long enough to put about 30% back into the battery. At first the generator was browning out at about 180 volts with the PIP putting 40 A dc into the 53 V battery as well as running the fridge and some lights. So I manually set the PIP to put only 30 A into the battery from the generator and all was well.

But any time that the monolith is shut down and restarted, the IMU sends initialisation commands to the PIP, including this generator charge setting, so I SMSed Coulomb, back in Brisbane, to ask him to look up the CRC for the 30 amp version of the command. We had relied on an online CRC calculator, but there was no internet access out here.

The mobile phone signal is very weak too. So to both send and receive TXTs I had to stand on the roof in the drizzling rain, holding my phone above my head, with rapidly dwindling battery. It was rather frustrating at the time, but somewhat hilarious in hindsight, that Coulomb's first long-awaited response was, "Sorry wasn't with phone. Do you still need this?". And after I replied "Yes" his second eagerly awaited response was, "I'll see if I can find a post on how it's done", dropping a notch on my phone's battery meter each time due to its need to use maximum transmit power. Of course Coulomb had no idea of my difficulties.

But Coulomb came through, and I managed to write it down before my phone died. It was hexadecimal C0C0, which I felt like a nice hot cup of, by then. Image I made the change, uploaded the software again, said my goodbyes to the happy customer and headed for home.
Last edited by weber on Mon, 20 Apr 2015, 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD »

" It seems that the actual capacity of these CALB cells is quite a bit higher than the nominal 180 Ah -- a bonus which, as I explained to the customer, will gradually disappear over the years."

Yes I think that's how they fudge the cycle life to 80% of original capacity.

By giving you a cell that's (just an example) really a 480ah to start with but labeling it as a 400Ah. This way after 3000 cycles if the battery is down to 320Ah .It's bang on the 80% of original listed capacity (400ah).

The reality is its actually lost 160AH from a 480AH cell. closer to 35% capacity loss.

Kurt

User avatar
gmacd33
Groupie
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon, 11 Jan 2010, 23:51
Real Name: Greg MacDonald
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gmacd33 »

Just thought I'd let you guys know about the Solar & Energy Storage conference & expo 13-14 May in Melbourne - seemed relevant to this topic somehow!

3 concurrent streams on solar PV and batteries. Registration is free, I just got flights & accom for $374.
Greg MacDonald
Chief Technical Officer
Lithium Battery Systems
User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD »

Looks Interesting, https://www.energystorage.org.au/event/ ... onference/

I can see the picture of a huge row of flooded lead acid batterys in the top right. Hopefully they have better solutions to demonstrate. Image

Kurt
Scott
Noobie
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun, 26 Apr 2015, 08:39
Real Name: Scott Day
Location: South Africa

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Scott »

Hi,
I just registered to say thanks to Weber and Coulomb for reverse engineering the CRC.
For anyone wanting to make devices that communicate with the inverter, I've put together a simple emulator tool which responds in the same way as the inverter but lets you test out the fault flags without disrupting your actual inverter.
Hopefully someone will find it useful. These cheap inverters seem like a good candidate for hacking in extra functionality.

http://theloadshed.blogspot.com/2015/04 ... erter.html

github.com/scottwday/InverterEmulator
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2936
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber »

Thanks Scott, but elsewhere in this thread you will find that we needn't have bothered reverse-engineering it, since the manufacturer is quite happy to share the protocol, including C source code for the CRC. So thanks MPP Solar and thanks Johny for just asking. See
viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter& ... 332#p53732

And thanks Scott for sharing your code.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2936
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber »

As Greg (gmacd33) pointed out to me yesterday, it's pretty much a no brainer for folks in Australia to go with the "Giant Power" version of the PIP-4048MS (on eBay) now. When you include freight and GST, the grey one from Maximum Solar (Taiwan) is only about AU$160 less than the red one from Giant Power distributors in Australia. And for your extra $160 you get quiet fans already installed, a 2 year warranty instead of 1 year (but do read the conditions, exclusions and "not included"s), and if it does have to be sent back for repair you only have to pay freight to and from an Aussie address. And for those of you who live near one of the Giant Power dealers, you may be able to save a little by picking them up from a warehouse.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD »

A quick look around on ebay shows some other local options. This one looks like the same product (They gave it the red spray can treatment to) $900 free delivery (Au suppler)

Edit: Sorry the link would help, looking closer it isn't 100% the same. no heat sink ontop and lower max PV input voltage. (makes me think it could be PWM and not MPPT)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5kva-4000w-4 ... 2ee09b5e69

I was under the impression the better quality quieter fans only $40 for two + postage.

I guess you have to consider how important that 12 months of warranty is worth.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 27 Apr 2015, 14:50, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
gmacd33
Groupie
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon, 11 Jan 2010, 23:51
Real Name: Greg MacDonald
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gmacd33 »

Can anyone confirm the regulations for using imported electronics as part of a for-sale product in Australia? My understanding is that whoever imports the item is responsible for testing that it conforms to Aus standards, and is liable for insurance purposes etc if the device fails and causes damage - is this correct? (This is of course only relevant for someone buying the product and then selling it on to a customer as part of a complete solar system.)

Also, is the Taiwanese version officially allowed to be connected to the grid for the "generator input"?
Greg MacDonald
Chief Technical Officer
Lithium Battery Systems
User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD »

The only one I know of that was on the list of approved inverters to connect to the grid (and feed to the grid) is the 3000w Giant power model (different inverter to there 4000w (pip4048) )

This one. (might be worth considering for a package for grid conected homes)
http://www.giantpower.com.au/giant-powe ... rid-system

The way I see it with the pip4048 is its just the same as a big UPS. It's a appliance isn't it?. Its AC input is just feeding a charger or bypassing and feeding the grid though it and passing it on.

Though I don't know if things change once you start hard wiring it into a house thats on the grid.

Weber might know the rules better than I do.

Edit: All I can find in the giant power webpage is
"Giant Power Integrated Power Systems are approved as off grid inverters by the Clean Energy Council (the peak body representing Australia's clean energy sector), and are suitable for installation under the Renewable Energy Certificate scheme. Additionally, they meet IEC 62109 standards."

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 28 Apr 2015, 05:57, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2936
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber »

gmacd33 wrote: Can anyone confirm the regulations for using imported electronics as part of a for-sale product in Australia? My understanding is that whoever imports the item is responsible for testing that it conforms to Aus standards, and is liable for insurance purposes etc if the device fails and causes damage - is this correct? (This is of course only relevant for someone buying the product and then selling it on to a customer as part of a complete solar system.)
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and nor am I an expert on electrical standards generally (only some solar and standalone power system standards), so please do not rely on the following, but seek expert advice.

I spent most of the day researching your questions online and writing and rewriting this post. It seems your understanding is substantially correct, except that you may not be required to arrange for any testing yourself against those Australian Standards where you have documentation from the manufacturer having tested it.

As offgridQLD suggested, the PIP-4048MS is indeed considered to be a uninterruptible power supply (UPS) [Edit: when combined with a battery] and so the the AS 62040 family of standards is relevant. And because it connects to a PV array, the IEC 62109 family is also relevant.

You can see the manufacturer's test certificates here, where they certify that they have tested it against the corresponding international standard in the IEC 62040 (UPS) family or European standard in the EN 62040 (UPS) family. As far as I can tell, the EN and AS 62040 standards are identical to the IEC 62040 standards and so are identical to each other.
http://www.mppsolar.com/manual/CE/EMC-P ... report.pdf
http://www.mppsolar.com/manual/CE/LVD-P ... report.pdf

I can't find anywhere that MPP Solar (Taiwan) claim that the PIP-4048MS meets IEC 62109 (PV power conversion equipment). However Giant Power do claim it for their equivalent IPS-4000WM. I sent Giant Power an email asking them to point me to a copy of the test certificate. [That was before I found that their IEC 62109 compliance is registered on the Clean Energy Council website as described below.]

It is certainly the case that, as an importer of something whose manufacturer does not have a place of business in Australia, you must honour any warranties, both statutory or "express". See page 9 of
http://consumerlaw.gov.au/files/2015/09 ... _guide.pdf
Also, is the Taiwanese version officially allowed to be connected to the grid for the "generator input"?

I know you know this Greg, but for the benefit of others, as offgridQLD mentioned there are much more strict requirements for grid feed inverters, but the PIP-4048MS (and hence the Giant Power 48V 4000W Integrated Power System) is not capable of returning power to the grid, nor can it produce power in parallel with a genset. In regard to grid connection it is simply an appliance, a UPS, which feeds to its loads via an internal changeover relay. It feeds them either the grid/genset that is connected to its AC input, or the output of its inverter which is powered from a combination of battery and PV array. It can't do both at once.

Non-grid-feed inverters are not required to be on any Clean Energy Council approval list, but suppliers of PV power conversion equipment (PCE) (which the PIP is) can elect to register their device's IEC 62109 compliance there. The Giant Power IPS-4000WM is so registered, as you can see by searching on "Giant Power" on this page:
http://www.solaraccreditation.com.au/pr ... rters.html

In Australia, all devices that take power directly from a PV array (such as the PIP and separate PV charge controllers) must comply with IEC 62109 by 11-July-2015. The novel requirements of this standard seem to relate to detecting earth faults on the array and raising an alarm that can't be ignored. This does not apply to ELV arrays (i.e. arrays whose open circuit voltage will never exceed 120 V on even the coldest morning). But the PIP-4048MS / IPS-4000WM is capable of having an LV array since its specs go up to 145 V open circuit. But there is no mention in the PIP manual of any earth or ground fault detection.

Since I don't have a copy of IEC 62109 [Edit: AU$820 for the two parts!] I don't know exactly what its requirements are.

Regarding compliance to the UPS standards (IEC/EN/AS 62040), it appears that since UPS are not on the Australian list of declared electrical equipment, safety approval is voluntary, however it is still illegal to sell a product that does not meet the standards. So you still need to satisfy yourself that it does so. It seems to me that your situation as a reseller would be no different in this regard, whether you source it directly from Taiwan or via Giant Power.

I can't find anything that suggests there is any difference in these requirements between hard-wiring versus plugging in, or grid versus genset, except of course that a hard-wired appliance must be connected by a licensed electrician.

I repeat, I'm not a lawyer and nor am I an expert on electrical standards generally, so please do not rely on the above, but seek expert advice.
Last edited by weber on Tue, 28 Apr 2015, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
Post Reply