FS: Electric Honda NSR150 motorbike, $4K

Post by **zeva** » Mon, 20 Oct 2014, 21:39

Hi all,

After recently completing my Honda NSR150 conversion, I've decided I'd like to "up the ante" and build an electric race bike next, so the NSR150 is up for sale to help me fund the new project.

Full specs and build info can be found here: http://www.zeva.com.au/Projects/NSR/

I'm asking $4K, which is about half what it would cost to duplicate. You can think of it like buying a near-new motor, controller, charger, EVMS and BMS.. and getting batteries, contactor, fuse, DC/DC, power wiring.. and the whole motorbike itself for free!

The good: It rides nicely, quicker than original, has been 100% reliable (touch wood!), good looking bike.

The bad: I built its 2kWh battery pack using old 26650EV cells which had been lying around for years, and their capacity seems to be way down on spec, so the bike is only achieving around 30km range instead of 50km. This might be fine for someone with a short commute or only wanting a toy. Others might need to rebuild with a newer and/or bigger battery pack.

I'm in Perth but am open to interstate enquiries too - I think it costs about $500 to send motorbikes east.

Post by **jonescg** » Tue, 21 Oct 2014, 00:57

zeva wrote:I've decided I'd like to "up the ante" and build an electric race bike next, so the NSR150 is up for sale to help me fund the new project.

Can't wait to see what you come up with Ian! Good luck on the sale, the extra coin will prime your new project nicely.

Post by **mikedufty** » Wed, 22 Oct 2014, 05:32

I'm kind of interested. I'd decided my next motorbike should be an electric one. Just not sure if this is really a motor bike or more of a project.
Do you think it would be a reliable commuter for a 25km round trip?
Is it totally waterproof? I mainly use a motorbike when it is too wet to make cycling attractive.

Currently I have a z750 which is totally excessive for its main use of filtering down the freeway at 40kph, but it is nice to ride.

Post by **zeva** » Wed, 22 Oct 2014, 17:32

Hi Mike,

It is running just fine so doesn't need to be considered a project, but the short range may be an issue for many people - myself included, living 20km from the city. In general I think it's good for conversions to go to people who like tinkering with things (that's part of the fun, and so they know how to maintain/troubleshoot).

I have ridden the bike while it was sprinkling, but there are a few things I'd be a little concerned about if driving in heavy rain - though nothing that couldn't be sorted. I did try sealing up the touchscreen (on top of the old fuel tank) but am not sure it's watertight, may benefit from some silicon-ing. The charge plugs are also exposed - I was thinking of adding a plastic cover over it before next winter. And the motor controller is quite exposed to the elements so would benefit from some kind of splashguard (e.g plastic covering between the front wheel and the controller).

Post by **mikedufty** » Thu, 23 Oct 2014, 00:05

I like tinkering with things when I succeed. Don't like it so much when I get stuck.
My attempt to install a reversing beeper on the i-MiEV on the weekend was a bit disastrous, at one stage I had airbag an High Voltage warning lights on the dash and thought I was going to need to take it to Mitsubishi, but after panicking for a while realised I'd probably blown the reverse light fuse and replacing that fixed the problem!

The range is probably enough for my commute, but it'd be nice to have a bit for side trips. I suspect replacing the battery is too big a job to be fun for me.

Post by **jonescg** » Thu, 23 Oct 2014, 01:20

Nah Mike, it's easy. I'll even help you with it if you like. Anything to see Ian build a sweet 75 kW+ race bike

Post by **7circle** » Thu, 23 Oct 2014, 07:08

The Battery pack looks well put together.

2.7kWh pack on K2 Energy cells 264 x
Spec sheet :LFP26650EV 3200mAh x 3.2 for 10.2 Wh 82g $13.00

The K2 have power cells too that can hold pulse power for 30sec. 50A
LFP26650P 2600mAh x 3.2V for 8.3 Wh 80.5g $15.00
Or 18650 K2 K218650E 1500 mAh $9.50
LFP18650P Hi Power Rechargeable 3.2V 1250mAhr $12.00

Compared to A123
A123-ANR26650M1-B 2500mAh 76g $9.75 say 70A continuous and 120A for 10sec
Also the 18650 1100mA APR18650M1A Cell is $7.50 each for qty 500.
But I was wondering how much energy other chemestries like NMC NCR IMR type cells could jam in.

And how much power they could put out.

This site has Amazing test data 5A some with 20A http://www.dampfakkus.de/

... moved images to battery tech thread ...

You can get 26650 cells with 4.5Ah 88g with 3.8V nominal 14Whr per cell at 1C rate
So a 1hr cruise on a 264 x 14Wh = 3.7kWh Pack that could get you 80km.
May have to configure for 8 x 33 to keep voltage under Motor Controller rating.

But cycle life is another story... at the power levels. bit of an unknown.

Just thinking that this battery pack has a BMS that can work with these cells too.

.. Rant OFF.

[edit - tidy up .. OT .. and EIG power cells would rip]

Post by **mikedufty** » Sat, 25 Oct 2014, 06:23

Where are you located? I would be interested in having a look at the bike.

Post by **zeva** » Sat, 25 Oct 2014, 18:07

Mike: I’m in Maida Vale. You’re certainly welcome to come out and take the bike for a test drive sometime. Shoot me a private message if you want to tee up a time?

7circle: Thanks for the battery comments. I have been thinking about what cells I would use, if I were to make a new battery pack for it myself. It would be hard to beat the energy density of the K2 26650EVs, but they are a relatively expensive cell to buy new - something like $3/Ah, in this quantity.

I have been very interested to see how the A123 20Ah pouch cells go in a real EV. A pack of those would fit nicely in the existing battery area. They can be purchased legitimately for US$70/cell ($3.50/Ah = expensive), or about half that on the grey market.. But grey market stuff is notoriously inconsistent - likely to be B-grade cells, or even just poor copies.

Not sure if I would go LiPo chemistry in anything that isn’t a race vehicle. I’m scared of battery fires. EIGs would be very interesting to try though, if anyone has a good “line on them”.

Post by **jonescg** » Mon, 27 Oct 2014, 20:02

EIGs can be had for about $100 a cell $1.37/Wh which is three times that of CALB cells but you get twice the gravimetric and volumetric energy density, and twice the power.

LiPo cells would be fine for a small bike, especially if the capacity was never going to exceed 4 or 5 kWh. Just get a good BMS and you're sorted.

Post by **mikedufty** » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 20:33

Ian showed me the bike on the weekend and I had a nice ride on it. It seems well built and nice to ride, with enough power for the freeway.
Still trying to decide if I want it.
One thing that did bother me was the slow takeoff from a standing start, similar to the i-MiEV but not as bad.
Ian said there was a ramp up of a second or so programmed into the controller. Is this something that could be programmed out, or is it needed to avoid damage to the bike?
Would it be entirely due to the controller, or is it a characteristic of electric motors that they do need a few revs to start producing good power?
Looking at the electric trials bikes forums there seem to be people that have had success with getting instant response, and my kids' 600w bike can wheelie from a standstill.

Post by **mikedufty** » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 20:35

I should qualify the above by saying acceleration is quite reasonable from a standstill, just doesn't leap away like a good petrol bike, and it is good from walking pace upwards. I'm just being picky because it will be replacing a 750.

Post by **7circle** » Sat, 01 Nov 2014, 07:46

These guys did some anaylysis for their bike of AC vs DC and starting torque.
http://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/07/07/m ... tor-types/
Here's a image link.. dashed green line is ME1003 motor

It really comes down to how the MC600C Motor Controller is programmed to reposond to throttle at speed x.
(And not burn out the motor)

Post by **zeva** » Sat, 08 Nov 2014, 00:25

Sorry for the late reply, I temporarily wasn't getting email notifications from the forum for some reason..

Anyway the initial takeoff might feel relatively slow (compared to its performance once moving, or vs typical petrol bikes) because it's only a single gear ratio, i.e there's no gears for torque amplification at low speed. Most people are accustomed to vehicles with much more acceleration at low speed (in low gears) than high speed, whereas single speed EVs tend to have more uniform acceleration.

The controller is programmed to allow the full 600A to the motor, but even that only gives about 100Nm from the motor, and because it's still got the original rear sprocket the final drive ratio is only 3.3:1. It'd be good to run a higher ratio around 4 or 5 to 1 for more peak torque and less load on the motor, but would require a significantly larger rear sprocket, which might not be trivial to fit.

Post by **mikedufty** » Sat, 08 Nov 2014, 01:02

Thanks,
I was hoping it might be possible to get an improvement with just reprogramming, but it sounds like there is nothing to be gained there?

It does feel more like a delay than just a lack of torque.

On a conventional motorcycle you can also get that initial jump when the clutch engages, which obviously doesn't apply with no clutch.

Looking online the easily available sprockets only seem to be 42t (up from 40), not really much difference.

The single sided swingarm is probably not helpful here.

Post by **mikedufty** » Sat, 08 Nov 2014, 05:38

Is it registered with the electric conversion?