Voltron-Evo; jonescg's new electric race bike

Post up a thread for your EV. Progress pics, description and assorted alliteration
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Voltron-Evo; jonescg's new electric race bike

Post by GRMarks » Mon, 07 Oct 2013, 19:15

Hi Chris
I was wondering why you rejected the emrax motor. Two together would have given you the 100 kw continuous power. I know you had problems with the two "DC Indian smoke machines" but wasn't this due in part to not getting matched motors, hanging them out in harms way, shaft too short between the motors. All these problems could have been avoided by anyone reading your post and building a bike using your experiences as a guide.

The size and weight of two emrax motors would seem to out weigh the extra engineering required to build a reliable motor pair. This emrax motor seems amazing!

Do you have any idea on the price of the 228 emrax motors? Was this an issue?

You said you learnt a lot from your first bike, (and so did we thanks to your posts), but I think you learnt what not to do rather than what to do. There are so many different ways to get a good solution, not just one way. Although you had some issues I think you should be proud of the first bike you built, because on a good day it went very well.

Where there any other issues you had using two motors that you have not put in your posts (once you got a matched pair)?

As for the gear leaver - press on it for supper boost mode (motor max kw)    
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Post by jonescg » Mon, 07 Oct 2013, 20:51

Hi Glenn,
The Emrax motor is an amazing machine, but it is effectively one large outrunner. There are safety and cooling issues with running a pair of them inside a bike, so the effective motor diameter wouldn't be much smaller than the current Evo motor anyway. That said, I am confident you could engineer something to suit. I also decided to go with the Evo motor because there was the option of dropping it into the CRX when the time comes. Unfortunately I think I will opt for a #3 wind and run about 400 V for the car, meaning a whole new motor and inverter purchase. Fair enough, I want to be able to tow the electric bike to the track in my electric car :)

The pairing up of two DC motors would have been much more reliable if I had wired them in series instead of parallel, but at the time, it was difficult to find a DC motor controller capable of handling a maximum of 200 V. Not so much any more. Also, the battery pack I had build was a 3-parallel pack, so double the voltage for half the capacity (1.5 in parallel) wouldn't work out.

The Agni motor was barely 93% efficient on a good day, which means lots of heat being generated right where you can't get it out - the armature. Even a 2-3% improvement on the efficiency means less heat to shed at peak power.

Indeed, most of what I learnt was what not to do. I think the three take home messages were:

- one motor, not two.
- over-engineer the drive train for more thermal headroom.
- purpose built, racing chassis for no compromises.

I like the booster idea for the gear lever. Not sure why I wouldn't leave it in max the whole time though Image
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Post by Coulomb Racing » Mon, 07 Oct 2013, 21:46

Chris,

Why you use a ultracap. and dump all your regen into that and then have a boost that dumps the cap. straight back into the motor after the corner?

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Post by jonescg » Tue, 08 Oct 2013, 01:05

Because really, I have very little useful regn on a motorbike. If you are able to use any rear brake at all, you're not going hard enough.

And my Li-Co cells will handle regen like stink - no need for a cap.
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Post by Johny » Tue, 08 Oct 2013, 14:19

jonescg wrote: Because really, I have very little useful regn on a motorbike. If you are able to use any rear brake at all, you're not going hard enough.

And my Li-Co cells will handle regen like stink - no need for a cap.
Hmmm - how to do a front wheel drive motorbike...

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Post by pottz » Tue, 08 Oct 2013, 17:42

Its looking good there, I still cant wait to see this cutting some laps at the track.

Take any of my input with a grain of salt. This is all purely from a racers perspective, I know very little about the electric side of it as you know but.....
I wouldn't worry about re-gen braking at all for three reasons.

1 It seems another thing to have to engineer/spend money on and that can go wrong.

2 Race teams spend a lot of money on slipper clutches and things inside an engine to reduce back torque under braking to reduce rear wheel lockups under hard braking.

3 It takes a tiny bit of time for the engine to go from accelerating to decelerating and vi-ca versa (correct me if I'm wrong here) That small time becomes hard to ride around (as I found on my short experience riding the scooters) you have to start accelerating earlier than you want to get the initial drive, its very important to be able to crack the throttle at the correct time in the corner and have the drive exactly as you want it. Your better off have a more direct link with the throttle to engine when opening it not waiting half a tenth for it to go from re-gen to acceleration. This will be critical for making good lap times.
Of course I may be all wrong about it but thats just what I found with the scooters anyway.

With the rear brake you will be using it for sure! with the power of this animal you'll need it to control the front wheel lifting over the hill and skyline at barbs at the very least. It could also come in handy controlling wheel spin on corner exits if its a real beast too. Having said that Ive never heard of one being too weak so anything that will fit should do the job.

Gear shift linkage on the rearset? Just ditch it, any controls are much easier with the hands, I have utilized my left switch block buttons for things like a pit lane speed limiter and a timed engine cut as a quick shifter and I find pushing the buttons easier than using your feet for anything.

I have a set of standard Honda 600 rearsets with the brake pedal your welcome to have if you want.

I would also look at contacting MCRCWA soon in regards to racing it with them next year. I don't see an issue but the competitions committee may have to discuss it and make any allowances to the rules for it and this can take time.

Good luck with the job and raising the funds to get this off the ground, Its not long now till the next season.

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Post by jonescg » Tue, 08 Oct 2013, 18:35

Hey Danny,
I would add to the list of reasons why I don't want regen - the motor will be hammered at maximum amps 90% of the time on a race circuit. Regen would make that figure more like 99% of the time. So it never gets a chance to cool during the fairly heavy duty cycle. I don't think I will be at risk of overheating this motor for the most part, but it's a precaution I am happy to make for now.

Can you measure the centre-to-centre distance of the mounting holes on the CBR rearsets? I want to see if it will fit the hole spacings I currently have on the frame. Easy enough to get a mounting bracket made, but the narrower the better. If the gear selector can be removed from the LHS rearset without too much trouble I will take them.
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Post by pottz » Tue, 08 Oct 2013, 21:13

With only a tape measure they look to be between 158-159mm hole spacing
There is no gear selector on the left side, it is a separate lever but the brake lever is on the right and there are holes to mount the rear master cylinder so I imagine they would suit what you need if they fit.
Last edited by pottz on Tue, 08 Oct 2013, 10:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by jonescg » Tue, 08 Oct 2013, 22:31

It might just fit you know. If you want to drop around one day just give us a call and you can have a look. Otherwise I found some pretty nice after market ones online.
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Post by jonescg » Thu, 14 Nov 2013, 03:50

Hi All,

I have made a little progress on the bike. Danny (Pottz) kindly gifted me some rearsets and thankfully they line up with the holes provided. I still had some spare mounting bolts so on they went.

Image

I need wheels. I was hoping to fit a set of late model GSXR1000 wheels to the bike, but it seems all race bikes have moved to 6" rims and meaty hubs, so none would fit. Even a 600 CC bike with 5.5" rims still have hubs which are abour 20 mm too fat. So it's back to the Ducati 900SS wheel I go. Which isn't all bad, it just looks a bit out of place compared to the front wheel which will be from a GSXR1000.

The local wreckers have one for $350 which after scouring the internet, is probably about as good as it gets if you factor in shipping. I might yet be able to find a free GSXR1000 front wheel, but will start with the harder to find parts. I conceded I didn't have the money and instead bought a couple of clip-ons for $180.

Image

Once I have the wheels sorted I can start to assess the fairings and see where I should mount them. There's a front stay on it's way from the UK which will make it look a fair bit more professional.

On the battery front, I have almost finished the rear battery mount. This is a small steel frame which holds the battery pack off the main frame, and the two corners will have a small domed stud mounted in them. This protruding stud will serve as a locating pin for a ledge, attached to the rear of the battery pack, which will lower over them and R-clip in place. The front battery mounts will use the same arrangement, only it will be fixed to the front frame rail through the battery cradle bolts.

Image

As you can see, I have opted for a quick-swap battery connection. Sure, it's only rated for 600 V, but 700 V for a short while won't hurt them. Also, 175 A (which is it's constant rating) is about 112 kW - something I'm unlikely to see for a large part of the time. Gardiner Straight at PI might see about 8 or 9 seconds of wide open throttle, so about 150 kW bursts.

I can't afford to construct a first battery, let alone a second battery, but should I find the money the option is there. Best of all, it makes removing the battery for maintenance a cinch. I have welded up a simple 48 mm pipe frame which will eventually have a winch for lifting the 85 kg pack out.

The base of the battery is located in a tray which is being welded up right now. It's designed to sit as low as practical and take much of the weight of the battery. There will be a little foam in there to stop any chaffing on the plastic.

Image

The battery itself is a bit closer to functional with some forked copper buslinks ready to go on the 175 V sub-packs. The idea is that one can simply slide them in with all of the safety features in place, and tighten the bolts down. I might do this with the box lying down so the washers aren't falling down in the way of the forked terminal, but it's not a big deal to take them off and put them on later. My intention was to avoid the risk of dropping a washer onto a 175 V potential.

Image

Image

Once in place the side covers go on and the BMS shelf can be installed. I will need to pull the whole pack apart again to install the front and rear ledges for fixing inside the frame, but for now it can wait till everything else is ready.

Once the wheels arrive I can start to play with chains and sprockets - getting a splined sprocket for a 44.45 mm output shaft ain't easy!
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Post by orazzal » Thu, 28 Nov 2013, 19:38

hey jonescg

great build mate i found this thread on PSB and its really interesting i have a spare set of 01/02 gsxr1000 rims with sh*tty tyres wich u can borrow for as long as u need them, if you want them that is

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Post by jonescg » Fri, 29 Nov 2013, 01:39

Thanks mate,

I might be interested in your rear wheel, but you have to first measure it. How side is the wheel from bearing to bearing, and how wide is the rear brake calliper mount? If the number is greater than 240 mm, I won't be able to use them.

I've got the Ducati 900ss wheel sorted at the moment, but longer term I will be getting a custom swing arm fabricated, which will be wide enough to fit any wheel I like, including a late model GSXR1000 rear.

If you know someone with a K7 GSXR1000 front wheel preferably with rotors, that would be awesome.

Cheers,
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Post by orazzal » Fri, 29 Nov 2013, 05:38

hey chris so i measured the distance between spacer to spacer (which is greater then between the bearings)including the cush drive - 235ish mm

any particular reason y u need a k7 front end?

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Post by jonescg » Fri, 29 Nov 2013, 05:44

The forks were from a K7 gixxer thousand, so as long as the wheel is the same part number it will work.

Interesting numbers on the rear wheel. I'd measured a few GSXR wheels from across the 2000's and they were all a bit wide. Did you include the rear brake mount? I'd be interested in seeing if it could be made to fit. In any case it needs to be a 5.5" rim though, as the Ducati swing arm is pretty narrow.
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Post by orazzal » Fri, 29 Nov 2013, 06:00

no i didnt include the caliper bracket, that would definately put the total distance over 240 as its easily over an inch thick, as for a 5.5" rim i think all gix thous' run a 6" rim standard

for the front different part numbers definitely whether or not it would fit, i dont know

its here if u want it

-ric-

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Post by jonescg » Sun, 08 Dec 2013, 21:36

I thought I might add some progress photos.

The battery tray has been welded and will be properly installed soon.
Image

The battery locking mechanism will ensure it can't separate from the bike in a big tumble (although, maybe that would be a good thing?).

Image

I fitted the Cycle Analyst into the nosecone and build a front fairing stay for the whole front end. The lower fairing will probably have to be widened about 30 mm or so, but I'll try to keep it fairly compact.

Image

The rear wheel is a '98 Ducati 900ss with the hub machined out to 42 mm to accommodate the new 20x42x12 bearings. I had to lathe up a new cush drive bearing sleeve and bearing spacer too.

Image

After fitting the tyre (and getting a serious workout on the bicycle pump trying to get it to pop past the bead) I installed it on the bike and it clears the swingarm like it should. There is a nice clear chain run up to the driveshaft. I now need to get a 520 pitch drive sprocket made up.

Image

And if the bike looks physically big, it is somewhat, but once you jump on it looks pretty normal.

Image
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Post by weber » Sun, 08 Dec 2013, 22:26

Very nice.
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Post by jonescg » Sun, 22 Dec 2013, 19:58

I couldn't wait for the new front wheel to arrive, so I rolled the bike out and started to fit the lower fairing. I still had to split it up the middle, flaring it at the back so if fits around the rear of the bike. Nothing indicating I'll have ground clearance issues, but only time will tell.

At the Entecho Christmas party I had a good chat with Glen from Composite Components. He has offered to lay up a tank cover for me, but I have to make the scaffold and mold for him. I can do that, but I'm definitely not doing any fibreglassing. I f*#king hate that job.

It's looking very bike-like now! Time to start considering colour schemes... I think a highly parochial kangaroo paw tricolour will look the goods Image

The rear brake disc is on, the front brake braided lines have arrived, and the callipers/master cylinders are on their way. I do need to find a radiator which fits without fouling the front wheel.

One of the interesting things is the huge volume of unutilised space under the battery pack. If I was to make this a road-going bike, I could reasonably fit a battery charger down there. Not that 700 V battery chargers are available yet...

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Post by GRMarks » Sun, 22 Dec 2013, 20:43

hey Chris where do I get a tin of invisible paint that you used to paint the front rim with????

Looks great with the fairing on.
When you say you have to make the mould, do you mean a plug (a shape that is exactly what you want in fiberglass (or carbon fiber)) because a mould is made of fiberglass?

To make a plug is the hard part and takes many hours of sanding and shapping.

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Post by GRMarks » Sun, 22 Dec 2013, 20:48

Chris do have any plans for a traction control unit? I ask cos I just saw swinburne's SAE car, powered by 2 emrax motors, run and they got 1000nm of torque and a lot of trouble to get the power down. They only ever got the motors to 1/2 power and mostly less than that because of too much wheel spin on take off. Top speed was set at about 140km/hr

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Post by jonescg » Sun, 22 Dec 2013, 21:00

Yes the Plug - that's what I will have to make. It has a specific shape, so I must be careful to avoid excessive undercut. Anything involving the actual fibreglassing I will pay someone else to do, cause that's the job I'll be allocated for eternity when I go to hell.

The torque won't be all that bad - I'm happy to dial the power down if I get wheelstands or wheelspin, since there's so much of it available. You can also adjust the motor controller settings so that a maximum motor current cannot be exceeded. I'll have to wait and see how it goes really.

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Post by pottz » Mon, 23 Dec 2013, 19:23

Looking Good. Coming along nicely.

Are they 08-10 zx10 fairings? I only ask because they sometimes have clearence issues at the back where the exhaust would go as standard. hopefully you didn't have to widen it too much at that point. Then again it also depends in the height of the section so it may not be an issue. You also have the ride height adjustability so I wouldn't worry yet.

First round is in March isn't it? Think you'll get it there?


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Post by jonescg » Mon, 23 Dec 2013, 20:29

2011 ZX-10 fairings - the windscreen that came with it didn't fit properly so I fixed it to the inside. I did have to widen it at the back, but only by about 75 mm. It sits pretty high off the ground so the width of the fairings isn't such a big deal. I reckon the pegs will scrape before anything else.

First electric race is in June at Queensland Raceway, but the organisers said if you can't find 5 or more bikes, it's just not going to run. I hope to have it rolling as soon as possible, but in reality having it turn a wheel by June is more likely. It still needs a big sum of cash to get it finished.

I reckon I'll have it looking good and rolling by March, but the cells and the inverter come to about 15 kilobucks Image
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Post by Bluefang » Tue, 24 Dec 2013, 01:40

How much does it actually cost to run in the races? If you need to make up numbers i can definitely bring my motorbike up from the Gold Coast to make up the numbers. Hopefully there is not a minimum speed as until i build the next one the bike only does 120km/h.

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Post by jonescg » Tue, 24 Dec 2013, 01:45

About $800 for the weekend; Friday practice, race Saturday and race Sunday. I've heard they are considering putting two races per day on, because we can sneak in with the noise restrictions. Still, it is pretty damn expensive.

Oh, you might want to find the smallest, fastest rider you can, and work on the suspension to ensure it can corner as fast as practical - there will be several >100 kW bikes on the grid.
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