StudentEV's Daihatsu Conversion

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StudentEV's Daihatsu Conversion

Post by StudentEV » Mon, 27 May 2013, 19:31

Thanks Neil, looks similar to the imax one i posted earlier, I think I'll end up going with something like that for testing.

Hi Paul, I have sent you a pm regarding batteries.

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Post by StudentEV » Tue, 28 May 2013, 23:57

Just to consult the brains trust:

I've found a potential controller, I'm fairly confident I can get it fixed as it's only low voltage stuff...

DC motor controller

And the pdf:

PDF

I'm a bit suss on it because it seems too easy... On the ebay listing it says suits vehicles that will pull 100A continuous and 300A peak, and I got the feeling mine might be a little higher??

Also it's not programmable so if I won't be able to adjust anything if it isn't ideal... Which isn't ideal but I probably wouldn't have the know-how to do this anyway.

Thoughts?
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Post by BigMouse » Wed, 29 May 2013, 00:02

That's quite risky. It may be beyond repair, especially if there is damage to the PCB. I'd skip it.

For about the same price, you can get a similarly rated Kelly: http://kellycontroller.com/kdz7230024v- ... p-961.html

EDIT: Oops, I see you're using a 120v pack. The higher voltage controllers are a bit pricier.
Last edited by BigMouse on Tue, 28 May 2013, 14:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by antiscab » Wed, 29 May 2013, 00:03

EPC is a scam

basically the just ship you a box with wire coming out and use Ebay policies to prevent you from getting a refund (proof of shipping is good enough it seems)

steer well clear of this one
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Post by StudentEV » Wed, 29 May 2013, 00:15

Cheers guys, I was just reading a thread on DIY which led me to the same conclusion:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/sh ... 60p12.html

Yeah I've been looking at the Kelly controllers, I'm fairly sure the 120v won't work with my battery pack which will be 125v, then there's a steep price jump to the 144v controllers. I've been searching most days on ebay for a second hand one but all I find is clothing with pictures of controllers on it!
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Post by antiscab » Wed, 29 May 2013, 00:33

the 120v controllers would be ok - they're talking nomincal voltage, max voltage is much higher

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Post by StudentEV » Wed, 29 May 2013, 02:39

antiscab wrote: the 120v controllers would be ok - they're talking nomincal voltage, max voltage is much higher

Matt


Sweet... I'm on the lookout then. As I said I haven't found a single second hand Kelly but I'll keep looking.
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Post by zeva » Wed, 29 May 2013, 03:09

Kellys don't last long enough to be second hand Image (Sort of joking, though I have witnessed a lot of failures over the years. Also the ones in the little silver cases lack the sustained power you need in a car, and the bigger ones seem to have a clumsy current limit algorithm and can't do smooth starts.) [Edit: Any Kelly owners want to confirm/deny this independently, so I don't sound like a biased salesman? Image ]

I believe EV Works still have some Kellys left over from the WA EV Trial, as we tried them in cars but had several blow up, and the others were virtually undrivable in reverse (too jerky). They were 144V 1000A models so are probably overkill for your project, but may be worth an enquiry.

For another option, an AEVA member in South Australia is currently testing a prototype of a new version of my ZEVA controller. He might stick with the new prototype and send back his old one, or return the prototype in a few weeks. One way or another I may have a ZEVA controller available which I could do for you half price or something (either a 2nd hand oldie or a prototype newie).
Last edited by zeva on Tue, 28 May 2013, 17:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by StudentEV » Wed, 29 May 2013, 03:38

Sounds very cool Ian, I've sent you a pm re. controller
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Post by 4Springs » Thu, 30 May 2013, 04:03

zeva wrote: Kellys don't last long enough to be second hand Image (Sort of joking, though I have witnessed a lot of failures over the years. Also the ones in the little silver cases lack the sustained power you need in a car, and the bigger ones seem to have a clumsy current limit algorithm and can't do smooth starts.) [Edit: Any Kelly owners want to confirm/deny this independently, so I don't sound like a biased salesman? Image ]


I'm a satisfied Kelly customer, after a shaky start.
I have one of the larger black ones (KDH14800D). I bought one and didn't get to try it for quite a while (through the lack of a car). When I finally did, it blew up! Kelly replaced it for me (after an interesting email conversation where I needed to convince them that I wasn't the cause of the failure), and I've had no problems with the new one at all.
Having never tried any other electric vehicle, I'm not sure about Zeva's comment on the smooth starts, but here is my experience:
It can be a bit touchy when starting from a standstill, especially in reverse, and especially for someone who has never driven it before. When I say "touchy", I mean that if you aren't careful you end up going faster than you wanted to for a short time. I think this is more noticable in reverse because a.) reverse is lower geared, and so there is a lot of power, and b.) if you do jerk a bit in reverse, your foot tends to push forward, which pushes the eccelerator down further, which makes you accelerate faster, etc. When going forwards I normally start in 2nd, and I don't notice any touchiness. There are various things to try adjusting in the setup of the Kelly, but I haven't really played with any of them.
Another thing I've noticed is that under very heavy load (>500A at the batteries) the power cuts out altogether. If I take my foot off the eccelerator and put it back down, I have immediate power again. I assume that this is the controller reaching its maximum current and cutting out, but I'm not sure. It would be nicer if it just stayed at maximum current, rather than cutting out - it is a bit scary when it happens! Image The manual does list "hardware over-current protection", so I wonder if it would do it if I dialed down the maximum current in the software? I think at the moment I don't have a maximum current set.

So not really anything to do with this thread, but I thought I'd answer Zeva's request!

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Post by jonescg » Thu, 30 May 2013, 04:07

I had a Kelly 1200 A PMDC controller on Voltron 1, and it was plenty good. Smooth power delivery and capable of smoking motors without trying. I think the early ones had troubles, but the latest ones are pretty solid.
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Post by zeva » Thu, 30 May 2013, 04:23

4Springs wrote: The manual does list "hardware over-current protection", so I wonder if it would do it if I dialed down the maximum current in the software? I think at the moment I don't have a maximum current set.

That does sound like a hardware over-current system tripping. Most modern controllers have a software algorithm for a dynamic current limit (in proportion to throttle level, a PID loop type thing) plus a hardware current limit threshold which it's never meant to reach, else it's considered an error (often called "desaturation detection", good for saving transistors from short circuits and other faults.)

Perhaps the software algorithm is overshooting the hardware threshold. Turning the motor current limit down a bit should avoid it.

Sorry for the brief thread hijack, StudentEV Image
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Post by StudentEV » Thu, 30 May 2013, 23:50

zeva wrote:Sorry for the brief thread hijack, StudentEV Image


No problems, good for the learning curve Image
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Post by cobber » Mon, 03 Jun 2013, 15:52

Hi Tom,
Testing of NiMh cells is a chore but you need to do this.
Swollen cells are obviously damaged. The other poor cells have either low Amp/hr capacity or high leakage current and self discharge.
To test capacity charge a string of cells at 1.5 amps for 30 hours. Then discharge the string of cells at 10 to 20 amps. Check each battery periodically until flat say 1.0 volts. Capacity of each cell is amps x hours.
To test for leakage. Charge a string of cells at 3.0 amps for 14 hours. Leave them to self discharge for 2 weeks. Cells that have the lowest end voltage have high leakage. I would consider a drop of 15% in voltage compared to the best cells in the test to be high leakage. These should not be used in your vehicle as they will cause the pack to become unbalanced and can cause damage to your good cells during charging.
Ni-Mh batteries like to be worked hard in a vehicle and charged often. They do store well and the batteries you buy that have not been used for years will not have deteriated, though most will be flat. The 1.5 amp charge is and equalisation charge that you should do first and check capacity.

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Post by StudentEV » Thu, 06 Jun 2013, 19:32

Cheers Cobber!

On antiscabs counsel I've worked out a similar testing setup, planning on discharging to 0.5V though. Nice tip on leakage testing.

I've purchased a hobby charger so as soon as it arrives I'll be able to start testing. Jaycar had a similar one for $80, but the one I ended up buying was $35 on ebay, bargain! As long as it works like it says it should..

No news on controllers yet, though I wrote to the guys at EPC wishing them luck with their scam, they weren't too happy...
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Post by StudentEV » Fri, 07 Jun 2013, 18:42

On the controller front:

I've been emailing Kelly about second hand controllers to see what they might have -

"We have a KDH12600D for this motor.
It is second hand one.
It can work from 18V to 134V.
Please let us know if 134V is Ok for the batteries."

They were concerned we were running a 48V motor at 125V. Should I be??

I won't know the max voltage of the pack until I test it. Though I've said it will be fine just to get a price.
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Post by StudentEV » Fri, 07 Jun 2013, 18:54

"You can just pay the shipping for this order.
If it is OK,we can talk about the payment later.
The price can be $399.

If it can not work for long time,you can just return it for us or ruin it in your house.
But you may not blame us because you want to use the second hand controller.

Do you think it is OK for you?"

Kind of cryptic response, I Think spending $400 on a controller that might not work could be silly... I can't work out if it's $399 with shipping or without, and then whether I can get a refund if it doesn't work - or not.

This is probably a blown up return right???
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Post by StudentEV » Fri, 07 Jun 2013, 19:26

I got it all clarified.

It's working, tested.

I pay the shipping only, they send it to me and if it doesn't work I don't have to pay them. I can send it back, or just throw it out.

Seems legit, I like that they trust me to be honest about it.

So the question is of budget now. If it works this would leave us with $30 for the rest of the parts (assuming shipping is about $100), which is way unrealistic. So we'd go a bit over budget. But we'd have a working, reliable (hopefully) controller.

Thoughts? I've told them I'll have a think about it and let them know soon.

I don't really want to negotiate on price because they're being great about it.
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Post by 4Springs » Fri, 07 Jun 2013, 23:59

I'd suggest that you're probably not going to get a better controller for that price. Mind you, you may not get this one! (that is it may arrive and not work) Have you asked the shipping price yet? It seems that that is your only definite expense.

Will you have a way to test it when it arrives? My first one drove the motor fine with no load, and even went around the house once. But when I went 50 metres up a slight incline the controller blew up.

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Post by Johny » Sat, 08 Jun 2013, 00:07

I agree with 4Springs sentiment.
Negotiate - you're buying a risk. Maybe ask if its ok to wait a year to pay?
Maybe some Aeva member can test it. Postage in Australia would be a good investment to have it run a vehicle for a day or so.

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Post by 4Springs » Sat, 08 Jun 2013, 00:25

Oh, and by the way I did think of offering to test it in my car, but my controller is way too hard to remove! The way it ended up being attached means that I have to dismantle one of the battery boxes before I can get the controller out...   

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Post by antiscab » Sat, 08 Jun 2013, 05:57

upper voltage limit of 134v is fine, just means you won't be using more than 95 cells

that shouldn't be a problem as you will be removing bad cells anyway

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Post by StudentEV » Mon, 10 Jun 2013, 17:44

4Springs wrote:Will you have a way to test it when it arrives? My first one drove the motor fine with no load, and even went around the house once. But when I went 50 metres up a slight incline the controller blew up.


No unfortunately I won't have a way of testing until the car is ready to test, I anticipate this being not too far away hopefully. We still need to get the motor mounted but the rest is sort of bolting things in and wiring it all together.
Johny wrote: I agree with 4Springs sentiment.
Negotiate - you're buying a risk. Maybe ask if its ok to wait a year to pay?
Maybe some Aeva member can test it. Postage in Australia would be a good investment to have it run a vehicle for a day or so.


Yeah both good ideas, I think they will understand that I won't be able to test it until the car is ready, so it shouldn't be a huge problem.
4Springs wrote: Oh, and by the way I did think of offering to test it in my car, but my controller is way too hard to remove! The way it ended up being attached means that I have to dismantle one of the battery boxes before I can get the controller out...   


Fair enough!
antiscab wrote: upper voltage limit of 134v is fine, just means you won't be using more than 95 cells

that shouldn't be a problem as you will be removing bad cells anyway

Matt


True. Does that mean there's a chance I won't need to acquire more cells?

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Post by StudentEV » Mon, 10 Jun 2013, 18:22

I asked about waiting to pay, they said it's best if I ask them to ship it when I've got the car nearly ready to test it in.

Shipping $60, not bad.

It's the best option I've got so far, and it would push the budget but this way if something comes up in the meantime I can look into it. I tried to negotiate on the price of the controller itself but no dice!
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Post by StudentEV » Fri, 20 Sep 2013, 15:10

Hi guys,

A belated update.

I have three more NiMh Batteries to pick uo for a total of 500 cells!

On the car front, my work on the rust removal and panels of the car has been unsuccessful so far, and I'm looking at purchasing a new host vehicle.

I found a similar sized suzuki with no rust, no issues, currently registered for another 6 months, being sold with RWC (I think).

The implications for conversion would all be the same as the Handi, except this car has an auto trans.

Is this going to be much more complicated than the current setup? It's not something I've thought about previously so I'm going to look in to it.

I will try to post pictures of the vehicle soon.

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