EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by Stiive » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 14:40

Hi all,
After the recent Azure Dynamics liquidation, the market is expected to be flooded with Siemens motors as well as Azure controllers + other EV stuff.

Hopefully if we can get a decent group buy happening, we can get a good price from someone with multiple motors, and save on shipping to Aus.

Have spoken to Jack Rickard, this is the email I got in response to a group buy:

"We are pricing the motors [1PV5135-4WS14] at #2995.    

Havent' priced the DMOC 645 yet. But we will have it priced separately, and then a combo price for the two.

We'll also have 16 of the motors WITH the Borg Warner 8.28:1 gearbox priced separately."



I think $3k USD is still a little more than I was hoping to pay. Might email some other people too for quotes.

Anyway, please list your interested in this thread if you'd be willing to pick up a cheap system. I'm sure a Tritium would work well with this motor, or you could pick up the DMOC.

Stiive
Rgds,
Stiive

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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by Stiive » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 14:52

FYI: First motor on eBay UK.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251184766149 ... 26_rdc%3D1


ATM for $1,200 AUD -> Motor + controller + other stuff.
Shipping will cost a little over $500 IMO.
May end up significantly cheaper than Jacks offer if anyone's keen - I'm not interested in the controller so I wont be bidding. \

Keep in mind though, this is the first of many sales, the price will probably come down once all the really keen people have gotten their motors/controllers.
Rgds,
Stiive

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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 15:40

Stiive wrote: I'm sure a Tritium would work well with this motor, or you could pick up the DMOC.

Just be aware that information on the DMOC-645 is quite scarce; try Googling for data. I'm sure that enthusiasts will eventually reverse engineer it and write software to configure it, but that may take some time, so just be aware that the DMOC-645 controller won't be a plug and play solution [ edit: at least, not right away ].
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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by PlanB » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 16:59

Do we have any pics of what the motor/borgwarner combo looks like? Are you going to ask TJ to test your sample motor with the wavescupltor Coulomb?

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Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 17:17

PlanB wrote: Do we have any pics of what the motor/borgwarner combo looks like?
The Ebay link had some images, not much detail though.
Are you going to ask TJ to test your sample motor with the wavescupltor Coulomb?

I wasn't, but it's perhaps not a bad idea. There could be a few extra sales soon if it confirmed that the Siemens motor works well with the WaveSculptor 200.

TJ... have you done a Siemens motor?
Would you like to try one?
Maybe I can postpone trying to figure out how to get it out of the car for a while...

[ Edit: one problem is that I don't have the cable for the encoder, so that could take a bit of hacking to get working. ]
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 17:44

coulomb wrote: Just be aware that information on the DMOC-645 is quite scarce; try Googling for data.

Perhaps I spoke too soon. I found a combined 445/645 manual here:

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/f ... Manual.pdf

from

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/f ... ollers.htm

I'll attempt to upload it here; nope! Too big.

I've put it on Google Docs; this should now be accessible to all:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7AJFc ... U1HU2xzQjA

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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 18:21

I see that Jack Rickard has the motors up on the EVTV store now:

http://blog.evtv.me/store/proddetail.php?prod=1PV5135

US$2995, as Stiive said.

Image

[ Edit: found better URL; added image ]
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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by celectric » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 19:12

He also has a proper dimension drawing, including pinout for the encoder+temperature sensor connector: 5135-4wsxx_drawing.jpg

[Edited to add]
I am quite interested in this motor but looking at the drawing, the 425mm of the motor body plus 107.1mm output shaft is still too long to fit in my engine bay. Would it be feasible to machine the shaft shorter or is that a really bad idea for some reason?
Last edited by celectric on Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 08:22, edited 1 time in total.

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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by PlanB » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 19:23

The gear box pic on the UK ebay looks very similar to the fabled 3103 eGearDrive, that's a beautiful transmission if it is.
Your Google docs link wants owners permission to view Mike.

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Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 19:43

This is inside the cable box:

Image   Image

Image

The above dimensions are approximate, but hopefully enough to find a suitable plug. [ Edit: for prospective buyers of my motor, that's just dust you see; I didn't take the time to clean it up for the photo. ]

Oh, my, those aerospace connectors are pricey. They seem to be around the $90 to $120 mark from element14, and I haven't found one that matches the pattern yet.

[ Edit: thanks to nogas of DIYelectriccar for this Ebay item that makes the search for a connector redundant. Edit2: these cables are all gone now (22/Nov/2012). ]

When I poke my cheap plastic calipers inside the connector,

It might make more sense to replace the connector with a 5-pin DIN or similar, or use a small terminal block inside and forget the connector. It might void the IP rating though.

[ Edit: Thanks to Rustybkts of DIYelectriccar for this RS components part number: 531-807 (or try this link ].
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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 20:57

PlanB wrote: Your Google docs link wants owners permission to view Mike.

Yeah, sorry, I didn't see how to share it publically; it should be right now.

But you may as well use the original; I've just put it on Google Docs in case the Azure Dynamics web page goes away; I'm actually amazed that it is still there. Who is paying the bill for that, I wonder.
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Post by PlanB » Sat, 17 Nov 2012, 21:15

So a guy on DIY reckons SAE J1939 CAN is complicated. Are the DMOC645s going to be usable without ccShell?

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 03:06

PlanB wrote: Do we have any pics of what the motor/borgwarner combo looks like?

Also this image from Jack Rickard's blog:

Image

From http://blog.evtv.me/2012/11/cycle-of-li ... d-weather/

[ Edit: I hope that's what you are talking about, otherwise, sorry for the interruption ]

[ Edit2: for completeness; from the Ebay auction linked above ]

Image
Last edited by coulomb on Mon, 19 Nov 2012, 16:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by Stiive » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 14:48

So who's giving EOI?
I'd say we'd need at least 5 to make this viable.

Also, what price are you willing to pay? I've been emailing a few people who won decent quantities of these motors
Rgds,
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Post by PlanB » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 15:18

What a beast Mike! Gotta be over 150kg there? Yeah I hear you Stiive, with Jacks $3k floor price just for the motor you wouldn't be buying a spare. Still that picture makes me drool, all wired up ready to go just add batteries.

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Post by BigMouse » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 15:36

I'd be hoping for $1500 for one of those motors, plus my share of shipping. I could probably do a bit better than that, but if it's over $2500 all up, I'll likely drop out.

Has anyone seen any indication of what the controllers are worth and whether or not it's likely to get them working?

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Post by PlanB » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 16:00

1) There are plenty of shipping containers coming out of southern California with American muscle cars in 'em destined for Oz that we can get space in fairly cheaply, few hundred bucks for my 40kg RX400H transaxle last year.
2) We've got no chance of getting the DMOCs running without their ccShell interface IMHO.
3) I'm worried about the size & weight of that motor/gearbox combo. That's a big power plant, could be a tight fit in the 2 door 1000kg gliders I've been considering till now.

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Post by Stiive » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 16:02

Easy fix. Dont get the gearbox... Dont get the DMOC

:P


Mouse i'm with you... Considering most of them paid less than $500 USD per motor (some a lot less) - i'm also thinking around $1500
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Post by Stiive » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 17:14

If i could get a deal for under $2k who's interested?

If i could get a deal for under $1.5k who's interested?

Who's only interested for < ~ $1,200?


These prices would all be ex shipping.
I'm waiting to hear what a few people have to say. We may have to wait for the market to saturate though, most people still haven't received their goods yet.
Rgds,
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 18:06

+1 for me at @2k or less.

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Post by AndrewVS » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 18:33

Our local EV group would probably be interested in a few (2-4?) sets of electric water heaters/AC compressors/PS pumps/Brusa chargers that were part of the auction if they could be bundled in to sweeten a motor group buy...

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Post by Stiive » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 18:36

AndrewVS wrote: Our local EV group would probably be interested in a few (2-4?) sets of electric water heaters/AC compressors/PS pumps/Brusa chargers that were part of the auction if they could be bundled in to sweeten a motor group buy...


Cool, you at the BBQ today in Hawthorn?
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Post by AndrewVS » Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 18:42

Stiive wrote: Cool, you at the BBQ today in Hawthorn?

Was hoping to make it, but didn't quite get there as I've only just got home from another event this morning. We may have other Geelong guys there though ^^

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 19 Nov 2012, 02:59

One of the major suppliers of these motors and other bits and pieces will be Jack Rickard of EVTV. He's had good news from his people packing up the gear to bring back to the EVTV store warehouse:

Excellent, excellent reports from Oak Park and Livonia.

Richard reports they had everything loaded on two trucks and sent out on the road by 2:00 PM today – no difficulties.

Said the equipment was not discards and such, rather new product in new boxes. Everyone there was very helpful, and he talked to several AZD employees who were offering assitance and information, which we will no doubt avail ourselves of this and of course compensate them for accordingly.

I’ve posted the NLG513 charger on the web site online store at $1995 and the basic Seimens motor at $2995.

The most bizarre thing was that I purchased one of the Transit Connect vans that was noted to be incomplete and unfinished, but with much of the major drive train components. This included a Johnson Controls 345 volt 24 kWh battery pack which I would like to see. Then too, might we have use for a mostly assembled vehicle to check how things were wired etc. Might be useful and at $6500 if the battery pack wasn’t TOTALLY dead it might be really useful.

Instead, Richard ran into a Ford Engineer who just laughed. We had a car carrier to haul a non operating vehicle and everything. The Ford guy said the vehicle was fully funcitonal and complete. What they hadn’t gotten done was the PAPERWORK on the vehicle. It was a newly completed vehicle ready for sale lacking the final signoffs and title work.

They HAD been selling these at $65,000. We got it at $6500. Richard says it drove very well and they ran it up a ramp and into the trailer truck and cancelled the vehicle hauler.

Cant’ wait to see it.

Anyway, early next week should have the DMOC 645 controllers and the Borg Warner gear trains listed on the web site as well. I’ve received numerous e-mail inquires already – particularly about the motors.

Jack Rickard
[ Edit: from near the end of this page: http://blog.evtv.me/2012/11/cycle-of-li ... d-weather/ ]
Last edited by coulomb on Sun, 18 Nov 2012, 16:05, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by Stiive » Mon, 19 Nov 2012, 03:34

FYI
Got this response back from Jack asking if he'd be interested in supplying discount price for a group buy:-

"Discounts for bulk purchases are certainly appropriate when you want to move a lot of volume. This is almost the opposite situation. We got the last 55 motors on the planet.   When they're gone, they're gone. I can't replace them with Siemens.

The wholesale price for OEMs for a SIMILAR motor from Siemens, would be about $5900. Metric Mind lists this one at $9165.   So if they sell REALLY well, I can't go back to Siemens and order another 50. They might sell them to me in that quantity
but they would be twice the price just to replace.

The reason we picked them up was of course that we could do so inexpensively and thereby offer them to our viewers at the same price they're accustomed to paying for a Netgain Warp 11. The idea is to reward viewers and maybe cause
a bit of stir - some attention for EVtv. So the longer they last and the wider they are spread, to people who can actually use them for great builds... well you get the idea.

If you can get a big enough bulk order, go direct to Siemens. That's what they are after. But they don't want to deal with onesy twosey guys like me."



Lol, last 55 on the planet? It wasn't Siemens that went out of business, and plenty of other people also picked up large quantities of this motor. I really dont think they're gonna move that fast at this price, especially because there's not a lot of controllers that can utilise its potential, and the DMOC is now unsupported. We shall see.


Anyway, that was just one response of many PMs to people who picked up decent hauls. Lets see what others say
Rgds,
Stiive

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