Introductions...?

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Pro
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Introductions...?

Post by Pro » Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 06:01

hi!

my name is Aaron and my FIL and I have been toying with a few ideas regarding building an electric engine that is completely free of any power source that is required to be replenished (ie fuel, batteries or solar cells). now before you all start quoting the laws of thermal dynamics here, let me explain.

after messing about with a hydrogen cell for addition to an ICE, which worked but with only a marginally successful outcome, i've turned my attention to EVs.

i have had exposure to magnetic motors my whole life. recently i saw a "perendev" motor in operation (youtube/google it) and realised it was a design that i had also envisaged as a teenager.

however, it wasn't until recently on a camping trip, while i was getting the diesel generator going, that i realised i could build a VERY strong "perendev" motor to replace the diesel engine in the whole "diesel generator" concept.

there must be someone out there who has thought of this - it just makes perfect sense.

no electrical current required to turn an electrical generator which would generate enough power (ooooh....vague word that one - how about generate enough amps and volts?) to run an electric motor. that spells a power positive situation to me. you wouldn't even need regenerative braking.

i guess the catch is the perendev motor needs to have enough torque to keep turning the generator under full load... shouldn't be too hard with multiple wheels and stronger magnets.

i'm certainly not talking about running alternators off the wheels or anything.

there's even a company in perth that deals with commercial/industrial grade magnets (Lodestone in Osborne Park).

i guess i'll need an invertor to redirect the current when not in use, but as you may have already guessed, i'm no electrical engineer. in fact, i only found out what a diode does last month. but i envisage it to be a project not out of the norm and hopefully something that i can get information on across the web or from the very thorough people on this great site - if you'll have me.

i'm open to comments both positive and negative as i would like to know what the general concensus of the brainstrust really is.

anyhoo, i'm building a small scale model first. so cross fingers. i'm also happy to chat on MSN if anyone cares to.

cheers. Image
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 08:55

Show me a magnet motor turning by itself (to destruction if need be) and I'll make any required electronics to harness that power.

You-Tube Close ups of a motor showing one end of the motor while the other end is being driven by a cordless drill don't count.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Gow864 » Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:37

Pro, perendev is a hoax! it does not work, it will not work.

this is a company that has two employees. The main spruker and his lawyer!!!

EV2go, put a link to this site, and I went and had a look. Don't waste your money.

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Post by Richo » Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 23:33

I like the Australian version where they seem to be making money selling merchandise promoting thier vaporware.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Pro
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Post by Pro » Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 23:39

thanks for the replies guys.

it really is just a thought at present - but makes sense (to me anyway).

i've designed an engine already with CAD so i'll make a PDF and post it up for comment.

i guess the biggest idea is to NOT have the magnets degree'd radially from the centre - but to angle them slightly. i've been working on the angles of force required on the "crank" and i have 4 possibilities i plan to make using perspex housings to begin with.

the magnets i'm using for my test run are 8mm dia and 5mm tall, and cost all of 99c each. each engine wheel is only about 50mm in diameter as well. so if it doesn't work then i'm probably only out of pocket $100 or so and i've learned that i haven't found the answer to the world's oil problems...! the hydrogen cell cost me that in stanless tube alone!!!

the theory behind utilising magnetic force for a radial application is quite sound and i do plan to explore it further - if only for my own entertainment - maybe everyone else's if you've all got a sense of humour!

just a query though Gow864 - WHY do you think the version you saw didn't work? i've never seen one in person so would be interested to hear your opinion.
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antiscab
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Post by antiscab » Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 00:57

the energy has to come from somewhere.
on the prendev website, it clearly states the motor has no electrical input.
no fuel input.
and yet makes 100kw?

this is a perpetual motion machine.
it doesnt work.

a quick googling of prendev turns up a whole bunch of people sucked in.

Matt

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Post by Richo » Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 03:19

antiscab wrote: this is a perpetual motion machine.


Still $100 of magnets is fun to play with Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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antiscab
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Post by antiscab » Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 03:43

that is true.......
just dont get anything pinched between them....that really really hurts:p
lol

when your done with the prendev machine, you could have a crack at a permanent magnet motor

Matt
Matt
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Pro
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Post by Pro » Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 04:14

antiscab wrote:
when your done with the prendev machine, you could have a crack at a permanent magnet motor


Matt


which is what exactly...? - sorry my terminology is moot.

one of my possibilities is to rely on an attraction motor, rather than repulsion which would obviously greatly increase the life of the motor at the expense of operating RPM and torque.

its not just a case of turning the magnets around in the existing motor either, as the angle of the magnets in relation to the shaft radius changes as well.

still, something to play with - i also appreciate the healthy skepticism (sp?) and not outright flaming for such a subject.

cheers.

ps can i upload a pdf to the forum?
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Post by Andrew » Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 04:31

Pro wrote:ps can i upload a pdf to the forum?


Yes you can. Just go to Member Control Panel -> 'File Manager'

It would be interesting to see how this magnet motor/prendev machine would actually work. According to my Google search:
No genuine perpetual motion machine currently exists, and according to certain fundamental laws in physics they cannot exist.
and... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Perpe ... on_machine

I think there is a slight indication of sarcasm in this thread Image Image

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Post by Gow864 » Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 04:37

OK. This is absolutely the last post from me on this subject.

If you had a machine that ran on nothing and produced 100kw Why would you turn it off? why is the video of it only minutes long?

Now if they could levitate it in a glass box full of 1000watt light bulbs (plugged into it of course) and leave it running for a year or so. That would be a different story! (probably involving a really big microwave transmitter)

Pro. Sorry I can't remember where I saw the video, but it is of one of the inventors at a "free energy" show. Youtube probably. And no, he didn't just have it sitting there running, he pulled the sliding frame of the magnet motor and as the mags got closer together the thing spun. The sound of it then made the conversation difficult so he let go of the frame and it stopped.


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Post by Pro » Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 05:37

yes i have seen the video Gow864 it's the one where it sounds like it's rubbing on something? and you can audibly hear it winding down?

why is that your last post on this subject Gow864? clearly you have seen this stuff in action and have done your research - so why not continue to contribute...? i'd personally like to hear more about how i could rig up a microwave transmitter and what that would achieve.

i don't think perpetual motion is something that people should just "pass off" as impossible. i also don't think you need a research grant the size or CERN or NASA to work out how to do it.

the laws of thermal dynamics are clear - you can't get more out that you put in. sure - i agree. maybe the input of energy at the manufacturing end is greater than the energy the manufactured unit wil produce....doesn't mean that once it IS produced that the energy from there on in wil be free though....manufacturing could be scaled up to bring the values to almost 1 for 1.

using magnetics is just one way of utilising an otherwise static source of energy - like harnessing static electricity from still air. how do the laws of thermal dynamics apply here...? maybe the energy input to make the wires and diodes and food consumed to keep you alive while making it are all part of the equation. but if they're necessary anyway for normal everyday function, suddenly the THEORY rings true but the PRACTISE is something else entirely.

this is all ramble but i think it is possible to bring parity to the equation.

you can call me a nutter if you like, it's fine - i really don't mind and it wouldn't be the first time. i'm certainly not laying claim to the fact that i, and i alone, am capable of doing this. i may never succeed. but i think it's worth a shot and i'm sure there are others who think so as well.
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Post by lil0WL » Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 06:17

Image wooooo yay!!! lets make some money with these perpetual motion engines now that we've disproved newtons laws Image thats awesome!! now we have a motor that makes everything from nothing! Image

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Post by Pro » Tue, 12 Aug 2008, 06:52

ah jeez - i'm in the wrong place. thanks for the discussion.
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Post by Mr Camouflage » Wed, 13 Aug 2008, 11:36

Yeah this isn't really the right place for these sorts of discussions.

Go back to ozdat with your wacky ideas Pro.Image

Funny enough I was checking out all the youtube videos of these types of motors last night after watching a UFO documentary.

Some search terms for you, there's Perendev motors, permanent magnet motors, george green motors (He talks to aliens Image ), over-unity motors, Howard Johnson motors.

From a lay-mans point of view I don't really see how permanent magnets alone could keep motor turning indefinitely or under and sort of real load. Though I didn't waste much time investigating the theory, just watching failed youtube experiments, and a few that appeared to work (over-unity, green and perendev's videos though other perendev copies didn't).

Thought there was one guy with an electric car that seemed to run on only one battery, but I guess you could make any ev run off one battery for 30 seconds.

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Post by Richo » Thu, 14 Aug 2008, 01:36

Pro wrote: i'd personally like to hear more about how i could rig up a microwave transmitter and what that would achieve.
That would achive a permanent communication link to the box with no wires.
ie Proof that no power is going in
Pro wrote: i also don't think you need a research grant the size or CERN or NASA to work out how to do it.
So go buy a $100 of magnets and give it a go.
Pro wrote: maybe the input of energy at the manufacturing end is greater than the energy the manufactured unit will produce....doesn't mean that once it IS produced that the energy from there on in wil be free though....manufacturing could be scaled up to bring the values to almost 1 for 1.
The energy put into a magnet is very small.
A magnet will only accept that small initial energy.
Adding more will not help you.
Pro wrote:using magnetics is just one way of utilising an otherwise static source of energy - like harnessing static electricity from still air. how do the laws of thermal dynamics apply here...?
Genrally you need MOVING air to strip electrons from surfaces to produce static electricity.
Collecting electrons from a low density source such as air will result in low amounts of energy.
But if you want to collect them for a 100 years to power your iPod for 10 seconds your entitled to.
Pro wrote: maybe the energy input to make the wires and diodes and food consumed to keep you alive while making it are all part of the equation. but if they're necessary anyway for normal everyday function, suddenly the THEORY rings true but the PRACTISE is something else entirely.
Yes the big piture is we lived in a fairly closed system with a big ball on energy (sun) providing us with a constant energy supply.
It's all the big cycle of life.
Pro wrote:this is all ramble but i think it is possible to bring parity to the equation.
True - without evil good does not exist.
Pro wrote:you can call me a nutter if you like, it's fine.
No comment
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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