distributed power source

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manxman
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distributed power source

Post by manxman » Sun, 14 Nov 2010, 16:53

In all the hype about e cars, few want to consider the reality that batteries are too expensive, hold insufficient energy and are too heavy. So how about installing less battery KWHrs, and have a network of priority routes in the cities where e cars can obtain power from an external source whilst moving. The idea is to drive on battery until you reach the main route, then recharge while you drive as much as practical, and then battery drive to final destination. Hardly ideal, but it saves the cost of all those batteries, and it can be done NOW, cheaply, with existing knowledge and skills. Fossil fueled stuff will have to co-exist for long/heavy haul, but commuting can be by affordable means.   Yes, our coal power generation is dirty, but its still cleaner & cheaper to burn extra coal /motive MW than commuter petrol /motive MW. NB a 50kW limit on commuter vehicular power might have to become reality someday, then the petrol-heads might see the folly of their overpowered self-gratification. Also, energy rationing might have to come in, you can only have so much per person per time period per season, and no more. Energy sources will really become national assets, and wanton waste will no longer be ignored.
Tinkering: THE most destructive form of maintenance.

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acmotor
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distributed power source

Post by acmotor » Sun, 14 Nov 2010, 17:47

Hi manxman, welcome to the forum. Image

Man you jambed so many issues into one post !

I would hope that distributed electricity generation in both location and type would protect us from energy rationing. Scary thought though.

I would expect (seriously hope) the cost/weight of batteries to drop rapidly in the future. In the mean time, the recharge on main routes idea has been thrown around. How technically do you think this could be done ? Image
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

7circle
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distributed power source

Post by 7circle » Mon, 15 Nov 2010, 09:29

manxman wrote: ... Also, energy rationing might have to come in, you can only have so much per person per time period per season, and no more. Energy sources will really become national assets, and wanton waste will no longer be ignored.


You try and tell that to the people in the que at the all you can eat buffet.

Ah is you main point the Earth is over populated.

If we get our buts into gear with renewables I think we will be rolling in free electrons.

I think their needs to be a clearer understanding of the issues of transport by the pollies (...wana cracker)

I wonder how Australia rates on the road conjection scale.

I think you have some good ideas there. I think motion charging by electrical contact like buses have had would be intersting,

I'm not sure about inductive charging, as there are forces involved like in a motor that need to be balanced out our compensated for.

Perhaps they need Road-trains that you load your car on or link up to.
So your moving together down the free-way in groups of a dozen like eggs that need to be carefully transported.

Have you looked at the Tango EV.

The question you could also ask is why are batteries so expensive. And can we get to the 1000Wh/Kg so they are a fifth of the weight.

I'm still waiting for some one to sort out NiZn's crystal growths. Ad make it a super-battery thats super cheap and recycle able and not TOXIC.

The Molecular Weight of LiFePO4 and all the extra stuff in a battery with other majical Yttrium Super SpaceShifters making the structures free their electrons are bogging it down.

The Carbon Nano tubes are just waiting to breakup into groovie little benzene rings.

Just Car Pool. (...in an EV)

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distributed power source

Post by bga » Mon, 15 Nov 2010, 20:06

The problem with cars is that everybody has or wants one and electric versions don't solve the congestion problem.

Hmmm distributed power source...
I saw one of these in use yesterday, it was on an electric train.Image

Trains, trams and electric trolley buses are probably the best place concentrate our efforts. One bus uses approx 2-3 cars worth of road space, but carries 50 people and doesn't need to be parked when you get there. A single train carries as many sardines as 30 buses can.

Q:
Why aren't buses hybrid when they stop and start every 2 minutes all day?

********

Isn't energy rationing usually called rolling blackouts?
Just one more air conditioner should do it, then having a big battery and inverter at home won't seem so idiotic.

Thinking of the renewables side, PV solar panels are getting cheap enough to be an effective replacement for petrol. The going price is about $3,000 for 1kW of panels and declining. $10,000 worth of panels can make a moderately good electric car go about 70km a day (or about 100km in the summer), or about 1000km if the car's an electric bicycle instead.

I figure all I have to do is wait until petrol is $3 per litre for this to make perfect sense. The price will also help to clear the roads, making for less congestion.

A car with a big battery (a battery on wheels) could be useful for supplying power at night and absorbing it from the PV panels. It'll be parked at home during the day because the road traffic is so bad that it can't be used for commuting.
It's not the end of the world, but I can see it from here.

manxman
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distributed power source

Post by manxman » Mon, 15 Nov 2010, 21:51

Someone doesn't listen. All EMR is carcinogenic!!!!!!   Far too much evidence in my lie experience to say it's not. The cost to society of acknowledging it publicly is too great, it wuld require a lot of backtracking on some of our most convenient toys.   Lower frequencies are a little less risky. I believe magnetism itself may be harmful to humans beyond background levels. Mobile phones are suicide IMPO. I'm a computer tech, I KNOW about these things, and so should every other self-respecting tech. Why do they limit the frequency and number of Xrays/patient?   Because it's BAD for them to have too much nuclear radiation, which is very similar to EMR.
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T1 Terry
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Post by T1 Terry » Mon, 15 Nov 2010, 23:07

All the vehicles run on methane fuel cells, small resistor packs and small battery packs. The methane is stored in liquid form (LNG) and gas drawn off as required. Massive renewable energy plants remotely situated use the generated power to split water to hydrogen, blow off the oxygen and combine the hydrogen with carbon to form methane. The carbon released from the fuel cell is effectively recaptured in the hydrogen to methane cycle. The energy used to produce the hydrogen/methane is renewable so the fact that it's energy negative isn't an issue really if the plants are too remote for practical power transmission. A tanker can be filled with LNG and transported far easier than electricity over long distances.

T1 Terry
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manxman
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distributed power source

Post by manxman » Mon, 15 Nov 2010, 23:32

Ar least methane is a little crash-explosion-safer that pure hydrogen, but only a little. I wonder if the energy step down from hydrogen to methane and it's costs will be considered worthwhile. AFAIR methane has a greater affinity to haemaglobin than oxygen, so perhaps not. I can't see vehicles on low power being able to carry the weight of high safety standards. It will kill almost all performance and economy.
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T1 Terry
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Post by T1 Terry » Mon, 15 Nov 2010, 23:56

Combining carbon to create methane makes the hydrogen much easier to store and transport, hydrogen caused serious metal embrittlement and leaks through nearly anything. Is it also very difficult to compress and store as a liquid. The technology for liquefying and transporting LNG is almost old school now so nothing new to learn there. Research $$ on better methods of water splitting is what’s needed, it's a very energy intensive process but it doesn't all need to be electrical energy. At sufficient temperature the process happens by itself so the hotter the electrolyser the less electrical energy required for the same result. Where better to get cheap heat than inland Australia, combined with geothermal energy, concentrated solar and old school steam turbines for power generation and the jobs done, except for the water part.....

T1 Terry
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antiscab
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Post by antiscab » Mon, 15 Nov 2010, 23:56

so we should all change over to DC for power transmission?

not a bad idea, DC transmission is more efficient from a transmission point of view on the same type of line. though stepping down from high voltage to low is more complicated than just a transformer.

just about everything in your home would run from 340vdc natively (except for perhaps your microwave or an old DOL motor load like a fridge or washing machine)

Matt
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acmotor
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distributed power source

Post by acmotor » Tue, 16 Nov 2010, 05:59

Hold on !!!
DC for long distance power transmission but not domestic power. Heaven forbid the switching problems of DC !!

YES... a DC grid around Australia going to everywhere that zero emission power sources are located. Time share east west, climate share north south. No... waste the money on broad band instead. Image
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7circle
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Post by 7circle » Tue, 16 Nov 2010, 07:42

I noticed Ships Mitlitary ones anyway use DC bus systems for all the power requirements.

Might be useful in common technology for consumers like Internet....

7circle
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distributed power source

Post by 7circle » Tue, 16 Nov 2010, 07:49

T1 Terry wrote: All the vehicles run on methane fuel cells, small resistor packs and small battery packs. The methane is stored in liquid form (LNG) and gas drawn off as required. Massive renewable energy plants remotely situated use the generated power to split water to hydrogen, blow off the oxygen and combine the hydrogen with carbon to form methane. The carbon released from the fuel cell is effectively recaptured in the hydrogen to methane cycle. The energy used to produce the hydrogen/methane is renewable so the fact that it's energy negative isn't an issue really if the plants are too remote for practical power transmission. A tanker can be filled with LNG and transported far easier than electricity over long distances.

T1 Terry


Sorry just wondering is the Liquid Methane just acting like a sponge to hold the free hydrogen atoms.

10 Hydrogen-using alternatives to a fully distributive hydrogen economy

And it talks about Ammonia too.

Sounds intersting if it can be used for CO2 capture,conversion and storage. Methane/Butane/Methanol and Water.

Still want to know if its worth transporting it urbanly for a fuel or use just use Grid Electricity. LNG to the house already I guess. But purity needs to be high for Solid-Oxide Fuel Cells.

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Sat, 20 Nov 2010, 03:49

manxman wrote: Mobile phones are suicide IMPO. I'm a computer tech, I KNOW about these things, and so should every other self-respecting tech.


Really I don't recall computer techs being taught RF electronics?
If you were taught RF why are you working as a computer tech?

If anything a mobile phone would be more like a death by a thousand cuts
Unless you swallowed it Image

Meanwhile you sit in front of your PC with the wireless network enabled beaming out 2.4GHz right through your body continuously.
Then go heat a coffee in the microwave oozing out hundreds of watts at 2.45GHz while talking on your old DECT 1.8GHz cordless phone about how you were caught speeding on a multinova that flooded the entire area with highly focused 34GHz.
Don't forget that you got a massive dose of ionizing radiation from the last holiday flight that is worth so much more than the 2-xrays you had as a kid from that broken bone.

Don't forget that the food you eat is to some extent is also carcinogenic.
But you ingest this where it is absorbed internally by your body and distributed throughout.

There are many ways that our technology can cause ill health to someone.
Today's mobile phones really don't stand out as a big killer in my opionion.
Everthing in moderation.

Back on topic - inductive distributed charging is not that efficient.
So is not likely to take a dominant role in eV charging.
Convenient in theory.



So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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antiscab
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distributed power source

Post by antiscab » Sat, 20 Nov 2010, 04:13

Richo wrote:
Back on topic - inductive distributed charging is not that efficient.
So is not likely to take a dominant role in eV charging.
Convenient in theory.


True, I have only seen 40% as the highest transfer efficiency.

Mind you, battery charging is not hugely efficient either. (well LiFePO4 with charger in between is ~75%, lead acid is ~60%)

smaller pack need could mean smaller car, which could allow a higher efficiency for the car.

Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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