Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

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galderdi
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Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

It has been a while since I posted on AEVA. I haven't been all that active on the EV front. However I have been forming my plans.

I am building a Porsche (Tincan) 550 Spyder EV from scratch. It will be 550Kg and will be road registered. I already have the chassis and almost all the mechanicals. I have been gathering all the required tools although I still need a TIG welder. Since acquiring the chassis 2 months ago I have almost completed construction of the buck (form to provide the panel shape).
The body will be hand made from sheets of aluminium. Here is a small selection of my photos so far.
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Barrabuoy
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by Barrabuoy »

Looking good have you picked up the body building skills in the aviation or racing industry? certainly keen to emulate the running gear ideas as I am ok with my Boxster shape and weight ( I am a larger build than yourself :lol: )
Would love to discuss your build.

Cheers Barra
galderdi
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

Barrabuoy wrote: Fri, 06 Aug 2021, 13:48 Looking good have you picked up the body building skills in the aviation or racing industry? certainly keen to emulate the running gear ideas as I am ok with my Boxster shape and weight ( I am a larger build than yourself :lol: )
Would love to discuss your build.

Cheers Barra
Thanks mate,

Are you sure you are larger. I am 120kg although some of that is due to my height at 6foot 4inches.
No my skill are not from work. I did love metal work at high school. I did an apprenticeship as a technician and I did an electrical connect/disconnect licence. But all these mostly gave indirect skills. I did do a metal shaping course last year and a Tig welding course this year.
Always happy to discuss my projects. Are you in Brisbane?
The project is progressing well. Possibly better than I'd expected. I am currently sitting at 58% completion of my task list. I am taking the car for the first of many inspections by the engineer.
Here are a few more recent photos:
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T1 Terry
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by T1 Terry »

Wow, that is progressing well. Congratulations on te project so far.
What did you use to form the rounded parts? Will the body lift off to access the batteries etc? I'm panicked enough just planning the body mods on the Kombi to go EV, completely constructing a vehicle from the ground up ... way out of my skill level.
Looking forward to see this project through it future development stages

T1 Terry
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galderdi
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

T1 Terry wrote: Fri, 08 Oct 2021, 12:12 Wow, that is progressing well. Congratulations on te project so far.
What did you use to form the rounded parts? Will the body lift off to access the batteries etc? I'm panicked enough just planning the body mods on the Kombi to go EV, completely constructing a vehicle from the ground up ... way out of my skill level.
Looking forward to see this project through it future development stages

T1 Terry
Thanks Terry,

The curved parts use a combination of a kick shrinker, english wheel and bead roller.

There won't be access from under the car once it is together. The rear Clam shell (rear third of the car) will entirely hinge back to reveal the motor, gearbox, controller and batteries. But it is a small car regardless how you look at it so working in there is always going to be cramped. Even when the body hinges back there will still be steel framework around the perimeter of the engine bay.
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

oh and annealing, sandbag, hammers and dollies are also necessary
T1 Terry
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by T1 Terry »

Hmmm...... when I kick the body work it doesn't tend to shrink, sort of stretches really :lol: My experience with hammer and dollies doing the automotive body work metal forming as a night class at TAFE resulted in the VW hubcap we were supposed to make looking more like half a golf ball :oops: I could do all the folding and metal stretching with the little hammer to form a curve, the shrinking didn't seem to be part of my skill set though .... except for when I tried to weld in a panel repair piece, that produced some very dramatic panel shrinking effects :roll:
Have done plenty of annealing copper head gaskets back when I built high performance turbo engines for street cars .... and a bit of sandbagging at the street drag meets :lol:
I've seen the TV shows where they use an English Wheel, but never tried it myself, had to google what a bead roller was and that looked like a machine I could easily wreck perfectly good sheets of metal with :lol: It might be an interesting bit of gear to make the brackets and panels I'll need to build the frame to put the battery cells under the kombi floor though, so certainly worth investigating.
I remember my old TAFE teacher just shaking his head and commenting I should stick to being a mechanic so I can earn enough to pay a skilled person to do any body work I required .... it would be cheaper than trying to get them to rectify my attempts at panel repairs ... how cruel .... true, but still cruel :lol:

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galderdi
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

T1 Terry wrote: Fri, 08 Oct 2021, 14:24 Hmmm...... when I kick the body work it doesn't tend to shrink, sort of stretches really :lol: My experience with hammer and dollies doing the automotive body work metal forming as a night class at TAFE resulted in the VW hubcap we were supposed to make looking more like half a golf ball :oops: I could do all the folding and metal stretching with the little hammer to form a curve, the shrinking didn't seem to be part of my skill set though .... except for when I tried to weld in a panel repair piece, that produced some very dramatic panel shrinking effects :roll:
Have done plenty of annealing copper head gaskets back when I built high performance turbo engines for street cars .... and a bit of sandbagging at the street drag meets :lol:
I've seen the TV shows where they use an English Wheel, but never tried it myself, had to google what a bead roller was and that looked like a machine I could easily wreck perfectly good sheets of metal with :lol: It might be an interesting bit of gear to make the brackets and panels I'll need to build the frame to put the battery cells under the kombi floor though, so certainly worth investigating.
I remember my old TAFE teacher just shaking his head and commenting I should stick to being a mechanic so I can earn enough to pay a skilled person to do any body work I required .... it would be cheaper than trying to get them to rectify my attempts at panel repairs ... how cruel .... true, but still cruel :lol:

T1 Terry
I see you are in SA. There is a gentleman in Melbourne named Peter Thomasini (I hope I have spelled correctly). It is a legend in terms of metal shaping. He learned his trade in Italy working on Ferrari and Maserati. He shows how to make a complete side of a Monaro in one piece of metal. look him up on Youtube and he also sells complete DVD sets.
The bead roller is a super useful tool and not that difficult to use. The hardest part is keeping it on the desired line. Mine is manual but you can get motorised one. But I wouldn't bother for a backyard purpose. I replaced my handle with a wheel. The handle forces you to reach to the extreme other side of the machine and there is no way to turn the handle there and watch the line at the same time. Also when the handle was in the up position it had enough weight/gravity to pull the job through by itself again running off the line. So the wheel modification addresses both those issues. The kick shrinker may also be known as a shrinker / stretcher. Because it has two sets of dyes that can be swapped depending on what you are trying to do. But I have tried the stretch dyes and on 1 or 1.2mm aluminium it just rips the material. It is very effective at shrinking though. You can see the tool makes along the edges of that inner guard. The curve from front to back was entirely the result of the shrinker. The shrinker is essential for making the flanges on the ends of the doors etc too
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T1 Terry
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by T1 Terry »

Thanks Greg. When I did the Google search for the Bead roller there was a shrinker/stretcher also listed on a site called Joel's Garage. I'll have a watch of the You Tube videos and might put in a suggestion/hint about the DVD set for Christmas .... but then again, we buy our own Christmas presents now so ..... :roll:

Waiting to find out if my Prius gets written off and the price to buy it back, or if they turn the claims down and I have to do the fix out of my own pocket ..... odds on, if they accept the claim it will be written off, then that project will take the front place in the project list.

The kombi made nasty bearing noises when I started it up after sitting for a mth or so, until the oil pressure came up, then it quietened down, but I don't trust it for the longer trips any more. No value in rebuilding the motor if I plan to convert it to electric ....

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galderdi
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

Here is a pic of my latest progress:
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by brendon_m »

Looks great, I'm thoroughly impressed with your metal work skills
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

Here is the latest pic. Still some refinement required before I can permanently attach the nose and finish the bonnet skin.
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T1 Terry
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by T1 Terry »

Wow, I'm not putting any of my panel forming up after seeing that, very impressive indeed

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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

T1 Terry wrote: Tue, 28 Feb 2023, 12:14 Wow, I'm not putting any of my panel forming up after seeing that, very impressive indeed

T1 Terry
Thanks, that nose is actually my second attempt. The first attempt will probably end up as wall art for someone. Largely it is as simple as understanding where to shrink and where to stretch. The paper pattern and the panel have a language. Once you get to know the language they will tell you where to shrink and stretch. I am still not totally happy with it. But I can't stomach the idea of starting from scratch for a 3rd time.
I am continuing to learn heaps and if I were to start again there are loads of things I would do differently to achieve and improved result.

Just a few examples:
1. I would use thicker material around the headlights to compensate for the amount of thinning that occurs in creating the return (where it dips on the inside of each headlight)
2. I would change the welding sequence so I could continue to place the panels on the buck for a prolonged period. This would achieve more consistent results from side to side and more accurate panel placement. You might notice the front guards bulge around the wheels. The angle coming off the back of the headlight pointed too far outside the wheels. Being able to place all the panels on the buck until the last minute would have shown me the correct angle before it was all welded.
3. Points of reference are challenging on a shape like this. It is super hard to double check if things are lining up because there are very few corners to measure up to. I think being able to continue checking against the buck would help but I think going in with a firm plan for points of reference would also help.
4. Using contour gauges would be another one. But I am not convinced for two reasons. If I am checking against the buck then the buck acts like a contour gauge. You can get a profile perfect and then in the process of welding it all goes to hell. So I figure the corrections after welding are more important.
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by T1 Terry »

I remember the dramas only too well when welding the aluminium frame for the overhead cupboard in my bus to motorhome conversion .... so many angles to keep in the correct perspective to each other .... trying to wrap the whole thing with 3 angles to fit in a 90° bend corner so there was room behind for the cabling and vent pipes just added to the drama a curved roof and only one surface at right angles because the outer walls slope in where the windows were originally, then it rolls over the top to meet the roof that is also curved ..... and it can only hang off one wall because the body has to flex to get out of servo driveways and up potholes dirt roads without either front of rear wheels leaving the ground ..... I now know why motorhome manufactures have that hollow section under, behind and above any cupboards, the simply fill it in with a cover section ...... it's so a cupboard with right angles all round can be adapted to fit the space :twisted:

T1 Terry
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OzSpider
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by OzSpider »

HI @galderdi I hadn't been following this build till now. Amazing skills you are learning. Looking fwd to the next phase of motor batteries and stuff. Will be an awesome creation.
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

OzSpider wrote: Sat, 07 Oct 2023, 07:17 HI @galderdi I hadn't been following this build till now. Amazing skills you are learning. Looking fwd to the next phase of motor batteries and stuff. Will be an awesome creation.
Thanks. I recently changed direction. I have purchased a new Netgain Hyper 9 HV along with all the associated stuff. It should perform similar to the old DC motor I was planning to use. But I am keen to see if the top end is better on the new motor. The chart seems to imply significantly better performance at the top end revs. But efficiency and regen are the biggest advantages.
I am making significant progress on the back half of the car now so I need to knuckle down and get moving on the battery again.

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galderdi
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

Although I am having one heck of a time finding AC batteries to support my new AC system :lol:
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

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I'm not sure if I mentioned it here but I have changed direction. I am ditching my old DC motor in favour of a brand new AC motor. I was always of the understanding that DC torque was better than AC torque and I was also told that the tope end of AC was no better than the equivalent DC motor. But I have been doing some analysis comparing my two specific motors. The DC certainly does start with better torque but not as significantly as I'd expected. Below 1000RPM Dc is around 230 ft·lbs while the AC is around 200 ft·lbs. But the DC torque drops off constantly from 2000 rpm eventually to 10 ft·lbs by 6000 rpm. While the AC maintains 200 ft·lbs all the way to 7000 rpm and can continue to 8000 rpm at about 180 ft·lbs... I have checked the reality with someone who owns a car with one of these AC motors and they confirm the pull is consistent to at least 6000 rpm. 

So the torque sacrifice off the line is no where near as significant as I'd expected and the advantage through the rest of the rev range will more than make up for it many times over. The problem with the old setup was it was awesome through the first half of 1st gear. Then shifting to any other gear gave a slight improvement but never regained the acceleration because none of the other gears would bring the revs back down to the sub 2000 rpm sweet spot.

In contrast the new motor will accelerate nearly as good off the line but then will maintain that acceleration easily twice as long in 1st gear but then also means there will still be awesome acceleration in the next chosen gear.

in the old car I would start in 1st and shift to 3rd or 4th in an effort to strike a balance between the gearing disadvantage and the sweet spot. It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the new car because skipping gears no longer makes as much sense because I won't need to focus so heavily on finding the sweet spot in the rev range. So then the only remaining factor is whether the gearing disadvantage of a higher gear is less than or greater than the time taken to change gears.  

I am really looking forward to the first drive!!!!!
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by brendon_m »

I think DC's time has passed. There are too many benefits to AC and the price difference isn't there anymore.
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

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I made a subtle correction to the nose of the car over the weekend. I think it looks better
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by OzSpider »

Meant in the nicest possible way. Its a happy frog 🐸
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by T1 Terry »

galderdi wrote: Mon, 22 Jan 2024, 08:50 20240121_180515_resized.jpg

I made a subtle correction to the nose of the car over the weekend. I think it looks better

A new bonnet lid and a cover up front are the ones I can see easily (well, beside the lights in their spots) any other changes?

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galderdi
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

Post by galderdi »

OzSpider wrote: Mon, 22 Jan 2024, 14:24 Meant in the nicest possible way. Its a happy frog 🐸

Thanks, I'll take that. Even though its based on a German car I'd rather a happy frog than a sour Kraut :D
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Re: Porsche Tincan in Brisbane

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T1 Terry wrote: Tue, 23 Jan 2024, 07:01
galderdi wrote: Mon, 22 Jan 2024, 08:50 20240121_180515_resized.jpg

I made a subtle correction to the nose of the car over the weekend. I think it looks better

A new bonnet lid and a cover up front are the ones I can see easily (well, beside the lights in their spots) any other changes?

T1 Terry
The main correction was very subtle. Even when I look at the photos I struggle to see it myself. But in person it was more obvious and was bugging me. The panel just to the driver side of the nose panel was about 12mm lower than the other side. Effectively the entire floor was flat except for that corner where it was dipping too low. It makes it sound like I don't check these things in the first place. But I can honestly say getting mirror images on a complex shape like this is super difficult. Particularly when you weld and everything warps. So I had to remove the structure behind the nose and adjust the lower edge and reinstall everything. It involved a lot of rivet drilling. Its still not a perfect mirror image but its not bugging me so much anymore.
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