MG ZS EV

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francisco.shi
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by francisco.shi »

It will more to do with how much you can draw from the controlled load supply. If you can put a 7kw load then there is no reason you can not put a plug fed from the controlled load supply as long as you are aware that it may not have power some times.
Most hot water heaters are 15A and draw about 3.6kwh. So as long as the wire and the relay at the meter is enough to supply 30A it should be ok. Also you need to consider what other loads may be on the supply (like your hot water) so if you draw 30A for the car and your hot water draws 15A then you may trip the supply breaker.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by praxidice »

As I've mentioned several times, my question is **NOT** whether or not a 7kw EVSE can be connected to off-peak but rather whether the 7kw EVSE with a 240v 32 amp plug can be (legally) pluggable. Normally, devices connected to off-peak must be hard wired, presumably so people can't switch between peak and off-peak at their whim. Only pool pumps are specifically mentioned in the wiring standard, possibly because they need to be removed for servicing. My argument is that the same should be applicable to EVSE's, however getting that admission out of any official muppet is harder than pulling teeth.

My hot water service is gas, the 240v 32 amp socket for the EVSE is on a completely different circuit in the main switchboard to everything else, and the link to the overhead wires is quite capable of carrying far more amps than I'll ever ask of it.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by francisco.shi »

If you put a 32A plug why wouldn't it be pluggable?
32A plugs are not very common let alone single phase.
So you can install a 32A plug at home but it is unlikely you will find one out in the field unless it is in a factory and even then they are not very common. Most things that need 7kw are not portable and will most likely be 3ph and wired directly which means a 20A 3ph plug (a 20A 3ph plug can supply 19kw) is your best bet.
The only way you are likely to find a 32A in the field is for EV charging but then not sure how common they are.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by smithy2167 »

The power companies only permit certain things to be connected to the controlled load circuit and they have to be hard wired. I believe an EVSE, if hard wired, is acceptable. If they allowed a 32A socket, then you could plug anything into it.

The EVSE does need to be on it's own separate circuit from the switchboard with its own RCBO and nothing else.

Apart from single phase 10/15A outlets, I believe 32A 3-phase is the most common EV charging socket you're likely to encounter in the wild.

The OpenEVSE is only a single-phase charger, so it draws a maximum of 7kw / 32A from a single phase only. This suits me as I want to charge only from the 10kW solar system. The charger can be controlled, using extra monitoring equipment, so that it only uses surplus solar energy.

If your car will handle 3-phase charging (like the Renault Zoe) and your house has 3-phase power (which we do), then the OpenEVSE can be converted to a 3-phase 22kW charger, if you know what you're doing.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by reecho »

smithy2167 wrote: Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 07:45
praxidice wrote: Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 02:11 7kw EVSE's are available from OpenEVSE for under $500. Be aware however that they aren't 'portable' in the same context as a 10 amp or 15 amp plug-in EVSE as they need around 30 amps at 240v, and there wouldn't be a regular GPO in the country that will allow as much draw. Very rarely one might find an industrial style 240v 32 amp socket but they use round pins like a three phase outlet and are not compatible with 10 amp / 15 amp plugs. Possibly a 240v 32 amp to 415v 32 amp adaptor would do the job if you can find an accessible three phase outlet.
That's not entirely the case. The charge rate is programmable via a web page and can be adjusted down to 10A, 15A, ... whatever the socket supports.

I have one that's fitted with a 32A 3-phase plug. I also have an adaptor cable to a standard 3-pin plug to allow it to be used with 10A or 15A outlets. Hopefully that will cover most cases.

I paid about $A750 landed for the kit version, and assembled is about $100 more.
You can also change the charge rate on the unit itself via the touch sensor and into the menus. That sensor is an option now on all kits.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by smithy2167 »

reecho wrote: Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 19:20 You can also change the charge rate on the unit itself via the touch sensor and into the menus. That sensor is an option now on all kits.
I have a touch button but I couldn't get it to work. The command to enable it was not recognised. I suspect the front button function has been completely removed.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by reecho »

smithy2167 wrote: Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 20:50
reecho wrote: Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 19:20 You can also change the charge rate on the unit itself via the touch sensor and into the menus. That sensor is an option now on all kits.
I have a touch button but I couldn't get it to work. The command to enable it was not recognised. I suspect the front button function has been completely removed.
Ah yeah that could be right. it can be enabled using the EU firmware.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by doggy »

I've also had an OpenEVSE for coming up to three years.
EU software.
Adjustable in one amp increments from 6A to 32A.
Single and/or three phase. Two phase if available.
Adjustable over WiFi or via the button and menus.
I have a variety of connectors. Everything from 10A GPO, 15A connectors, single phase 32A, three phase 32A, commando plugs.
It's a wonderful beast. Also has charging from solar excess. I run it from a 32A outlet at home and also from a 5KW (15 peak) PSW inverter.
Whereas I agree with reecho it is not quite as portable as some others it's definitely able to be carried around. Rather than have a fixed type 2 lead, I have a socket on mine and use the Zoe Type 2 cable that comes with the car.
This is very much my "Go to" charging solution. About the only thing I'm a little negative about is that it measures current but not voltage. It assumes a fixed voltage.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by fl360 »

Hello all, new to the forum, I can be quite good in the numbers.

I am in Sydney, the MG EV is selling for 43.X k drive away - which brings my attention. However I will only consider it if I can fuel it under my controlled load at home, because it is about 11 cents per kwh. compare with the normal price of 23 cents per kwh.

Questions. (assume I can get a sparky to have a normal socket out of the controlled load meter) with its own 20amp circuit.
1. I assume MG will give you a lead which can connect to a normal wall plug ?
2. is that normal wall plug will charge your car in 7 hours ?
3. do you know how much AMP that lead is pulling ? is it 8 amps ? so it is suitable for the wall plug ?
4. for controlled load you all know it only provides electricity as they wish in the middle of the night right ?
[VERY important], in that case can I hook the car up when the wall socket has no power, and when the power comes it will charge by itself ? and when the power goes of course the charging stops... I am asking once the power comes the car will just charge right ? I don't need to interact with it to charge right ? (so I don't need to watch for the controlled load power to come in and I start the charging myself ? )

thanks a lot.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by coulomb »

fl360 wrote: Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 17:54 Hello all, new to the forum, I can be quite good in the numbers.
Welcome to the forum.
Questions. (assume I can get a sparky to have a normal socket out of the controlled load meter) with its own 20amp circuit.
You will probably want to get a dedicated 32 A circuit, so that you can let the car draw the maximum 30 A that it is capable of, so that it can always charge in under 8 hours. Any less than 30 A and it won't be guaranteed to charge (if it happens to be very empty at the start). You will need a wall mounted EVSE at the end of that dedicated circuit, probably (but not necessarily these days) permanently connected, and this will cost many hundreds of dollars, depending on many factors.
1. I assume MG will give you a lead which can connect to a normal wall plug ?
Yes, but this is for emergency use, not for charging every night.
2. is that normal wall plug will charge your car in 7 hours ?
No, this is a "granny" EVSE that will take some 30 hours to charge (worst case).
3. do you know how much AMP that lead is pulling ? is it 8 amps ? so it is suitable for the wall plug ?
Yes, it appears that MG Australia are supplying an 8 A EVSE, which is suitable for plugging into an ordinary 10 A outlet, even for long periods of time. Though the outlet should not be too old, weathered, or had excessive use.
4. for controlled load you all know it only provides electricity as they wish in the middle of the night right ?
[VERY important], in that case can I hook the car up when the wall socket has no power, and when the power comes it will charge by itself ?
I can't be certain about the MG ZS, but that's the way it works for my Leaf, and I'd be extremely surprised if it was any different for the MG.
I don't need to interact with it to charge right ?
No interaction should be required, once everything is set up. And I agree that if you did have to wait for it and do something every time you needed to charge, it would be intolerable.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by FyKnight »

Adding to coulomb's great reply...
fl360 wrote: Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 17:54 Questions. (assume I can get a sparky to have a normal socket out of the controlled load meter) with its own 20amp circuit.
Yes depending on how fast you want it to charge, if you get a wall mounted EVSE installed you can charge at whatever current you like, from 6 to ~32 amps. You can figure out the speed yourself.... at 20 amps and 240 V, that is 4.8 kW, so to fully charge the 44.5 kWh battery would take at least 44.5/4.8 = 9 hours 15 minutes. As the battery approaches full capacity it charges slower and at the very end it sometimes does balancing (or "equalising" as the manual says) that takes an extra half an hour.

But that said, if you drive it to less than completely empty in one day — or do not need a full charge the next morning — then it will be plenty even if you don't get the full charge. Still you may as well go for the full ~32 A single phase to charge it faster. It is the EVSE that tells the car how much current to draw so it will have to be set to the correct rate by the electrician that installs it.
fl360 wrote: Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 17:54 1. I assume MG will give you a lead which can connect to a normal wall plug ?
Yes they do and as mentioned this granny charger is very slow at 8 amps / 22+ hours, but if you are not driving your car very far each day (or are happy to use commercial fast chargers when you need to) then it is plenty. For me it is plenty. The "emergency use" that @coulomb talks about might apply to other cars, but not the MG ZS EV, in fact the manual explicitly warns that "Under normal circumstances it is strongly recommended that you use a slow charging method, avoid constant or regular use of rapid chargers" (page 139). Page 146 says "Chargers with outputs of up to 3 kW are generally considered as slow chargers..."

To address your underlying question though... if you are getting an electrician to install a new circuit off the controlled load meter, you may as well get them to install a wall charger too, instead of an outlet. You might be able to survive with this granny charger, but you'd probably regret not getting a better system installed.
fl360 wrote: Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 17:54 [VERY important], in that case can I hook the car up when the wall socket has no power, and when the power comes it will charge by itself ? and when the power goes of course the charging stops... I am asking once the power comes the car will just charge right ? I don't need to interact with it to charge right ? (so I don't need to watch for the controlled load power to come in and I start the charging myself ? )
I have the MG ZS EV and I can confirm that yes, this works fine. If you plug everything in with the granny charger EVSE switched off at the wall, then when you switch it on the EVSE will boot up, do the charging handshake, and the car will start charging. And obviously if the power drops out it will stop charging. I'm not 100% sure that this won't cause any wear on the charging circuitry but I doubt that it would. The only contact that is opening while energised would be the one that controls the controlled load and that would presumably be designed to open in that state.

You should also consider the costs of doing this at all. How much does a full charge cost? At your 11c / kWh it's $4.90 but at 23c / kWh it's still only $10.24. If you drive it 10,000 km a year and go 250 km per charge (you could well do better than this in the city) then that is 40 full charges per year. So its about $400 vs $200 per year. Is saving the $200 per year worth it for not being able to fast charge at all times?
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by praxidice »

fl360 wrote: Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 17:54 1. I assume MG will give you a lead which can connect to a normal wall plug ?
Yes they do and as mentioned this granny charger is very slow at 8 amps / 22+ hours, but if you are not driving your car very far each day (or are happy to use commercial fast chargers when you need to) then it is plenty. For me it is plenty. The "emergency use" that @coulomb talks about might apply to other cars, but not the MG ZS EV, in fact the manual explicitly warns that "Under normal circumstances it is strongly recommended that you use a slow charging method, avoid constant or regular use of rapid chargers" (page 139). Page 146 says "Chargers with outputs of up to 3 kW are generally considered as slow chargers..."

To address your underlying question though... if you are getting an electrician to install a new circuit off the controlled load meter, you may as well get them to install a wall charger too, instead of an outlet. You might be able to survive with this granny charger, but you'd probably regret not getting a better system installed.
fl360 wrote: Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 17:54 [VERY important], in that case can I hook the car up when the wall socket has no power, and when the power comes it will charge by itself ? and when the power goes of course the charging stops... I am asking once the power comes the car will just charge right ? I don't need to interact with it to charge right ? (so I don't need to watch for the controlled load power to come in and I start the charging myself ? )

A few points.

Firstly if a 7kw charger is not considered a 'slow' charger, then by implication they should not be used regularly. That seems an overkill, especially when many EVs are only ever charged from a 50kw charging station and don't appear to suffer any consequences. Presumably this is purely a matter of extreme over-caution on the part of the manufacturer ? Seems extremely peculiar when all EV manufacturers including MG offer home chargers which in 2021 mean 7kw units.

Secondly, it is doubtful that installing a dedicated 32 amp circuit is quite as simple as it sounds. I have a number of devices including a fridge, freezer, washing machine and dryer all connected to off-peak (it was fine to do so some years ago), and the current draw wrecked the original electronic meter. When the meter was replaced, the off-peak switching was changed to operate at fixed times rather than being switched remotely by zellweiger tones. Presumably that meant less load on the switching circuit or a different switching circuit being involved. Now if an additional 32 amp load is entailed, there is a likelihood of meter failure, and to overcome this risk it will be necessary for the sparkie to fit a relay. Since I live in a remote area, I've found it best to think ahead as a broken meter may well take the electricity retailer a week to replace. Ideally I'd like to have this charger circuit terminated at a 32 amp socket for ease of removing the charging device for service if necessary. Whether or not the sparkie can convince the power company that this is kosher remains to be seen. Needless to say, there aren't many devices that plug into a single phase 32 amp socket.

Thirdly, I am interested in the suggestion that some electricity retailer is supplying power for 11c per kwh. What company is doing this ? To the best of my knowledge, the cheapest electricity available in Australia costs 18c per kwh, and then only at off-peak rate.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by FyKnight »

praxidice wrote: Mon, 15 Feb 2021, 09:35 Firstly if a 7kw charger is not considered a 'slow' charger, then by implication they should not be used regularly. That seems an overkill, especially when many EVs are only ever charged from a 50kw charging station and don't appear to suffer any consequences. Presumably this is purely a matter of extreme over-caution on the part of the manufacturer ? Seems extremely peculiar when all EV manufacturers including MG offer home chargers which in 2021 mean 7kw units.
They slot the "7 - 22 kW" chargers into the "fast" charger designation, and they don't say you shouldn't use them regularly — that's only for rapid which is from above 22 kW. The manual says it will still do equalisation charge with 7 kW input. But then it also talks about 43 kW AC charging. It also talks a lot about 7-hour charges, so assumes the 7 kW home charger. A lot of this is silly because the ZS EV doesn't even have the pins for 3 phase which is what would be needed to go above about 7.6 kW with Type 2, and the label on the OBC says it is rated up to 6.6 kW (though I have measured it doing 7.4 kW..). So yeah, definitely agree that it would be ridiculous to avoid regular 30 A "fast" home chargers, just wanted to show that the provided slow charger is not only for emergencies.

If you only charge up on 50 kW rapid chargers you will for sure trigger the "Please slow charge the vehicle" warning that comes up on the ZS EV (page 151).

Good point that the extra load could be too much for the controlled load meter. I suspect you have a pretty unusual setup there, usually it's only the (resistive) electric hot water heater right?

Please let us know how you get on with the 32 amp socket. I'm guessing it's just a matter of finding the right sparkie...
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by doggy »

I looked into this before buying our EV.

My wholesaler will only provide 15amps (Controlled Load 1 or Controlled Load 2). The circuit to the car must include the EVSE which must be fixed in place (ie permanently wired). Of course, the Type 2 output from the EVSE can be unplugged.

Maximum CL is 15amps and this circuit comes off the controlled load section of the Smart Meter. It must have its own C/Breaker.

Even though I have evacuated tube HWS (so the CL is almost never used), it still has the potential to pull 3.6kW. Given the limit is 15A, I could not have an EV connection as well. It is possible that I could have a switch to select either the EV OR the HWS. But I did not bother investigating this further. The "rules" suggest not, but one might be able to talk a sparky into it as the spirit of the rule would be preserved and it should be safe.

Instead of mucking around, I had a a separate 32A single phase outlet installed with appropriate CB, RCD etc. In reality, given I have two solar systems (4.3kW AC and 1kW DC 24V with 5kW inverter) I don't charge from the grid at all other than in winter. If I am in a hurry I can charge at 32A which is fairly quick in the Zoe or go to a Tesla DC and charge at 22kW. I almost never do the latter. In any case, my grid cost at any time of day (Mojo) is only 15.9c per kWHr and my CL is 11.8 so not worth the bother of a CL connection. On top of that, CL will be cut on signal from the supplier and it is much better to tell the EV to stop charging via the Pilot signal. Otherwise there is a real risk of an inductive switch off spike damaging the charger in the car.

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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by fl360 »

Thank you all for the fast and great replies, here is a bit about my situation

1. firstly I am only in the investigative stage, if the price and running cost are OK, I might buy
2. here is my maths, on a busy day I will only drive 60 kms, that's 44.1 kwh X 60 / 283 = 9.3kwh, on 8 AMPS and 240 V (1.9kw/hr), I guess it will be 4.8 hrs (9.3/1.9) charge, which is OK for controlled load times.
3. I have an old style meter, not smart meter. single phrase. smart meter is a scam - my sparky point to me that there is a sensitivity minimum of the old style meter, it is FROM 0.1amps.... anything less than 0.1 amps might not even move the meter. (it is actually labelled on the old style meter !)
4. I guess I can just tell the sparky, can you install a 32amp circuit behind the CL meter ? he will probably say yes - because the limit on my house is 100 amps.
5. Now, if I install a wall charger (with type 2 lead which the ZA EV uses) on the wall charger, can I switch between 8-32 amps, so I can slow charge the car and to take it easy on the battery?

also, please see my controlled load rate, 11.8 cents / kwh

thanks
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by doggy »

I just checked and Ausgrid has a limit of 20amps for CL. No idea of limits from other providers.

I think this is related to the original purpose of CL which was to smooth out the grid.

I suspect that sooner rather than later, CL times could move to daytime rather than night time. Not much impact upon HWSs and/or slab heating but possibly problematical for EVs.

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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by francisco.shi »

I got solar panels and storage hot water and added a solar collector. Because the heater will try to keep the water hot I put a switch and a timer so I could run off the solar as a booster. I set the timer to run from 1:30 pm to about 3pm. (At that time I still have solar and usually no one is using power) if we have too many cloudy days I switch the hot water to run off the CL supply. I very rarely use the CL because the solar collectors are enough to supply all the hot water. You could do the same and have a switch for either EV Or hot water and another switch to switch from CL to normal.
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Re: MG ZS EV

Post by FyKnight »

fl360 wrote: Mon, 15 Feb 2021, 13:41 2. here is my maths, on a busy day I will only drive 60 kms, that's 44.1 kwh X 60 / 283 = 9.3kwh, on 8 AMPS and 240 V (1.9kw/hr), I guess it will be 4.8 hrs (9.3/1.9) charge, which is OK for controlled load times.
Well that is perfect for the low budget way... you could get a regular 10 amp GPO on the CL and plug in the 8 amp granny charger and you are done. But if the limit on CL is 20 amps as doggy says, then your (probably) 15 amp HWS couldn't be on at the same time. So you'd have to choose one or the other. Not a great choice..
fl360 wrote: Mon, 15 Feb 2021, 13:41 4. I guess I can just tell the sparky, can you install a 32amp circuit behind the CL meter ? he will probably say yes - because the limit on my house is 100 amps.
It looks like he should say no because combined it's over the CL limit for AusGrid. Also I'd be worried about the CL time moving to when there is excess solar... I hadn't thought of that!
fl360 wrote: Mon, 15 Feb 2021, 13:41 5. Now, if I install a wall charger (with type 2 lead which the ZA EV uses) on the wall charger, can I switch between 8-32 amps, so I can slow charge the car and to take it easy on the battery?
I've definitely read posts of people doing this, but I'm not sure what EVSE they are using. This is totally supported by the Type 2 standard — when the EVSE changes the max allowable current, the car has 5 seconds to adjust its draw to the new limit.
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Re: MG ZS EV and EVSEs

Post by coulomb »

FyKnight wrote: Mon, 15 Feb 2021, 18:51 I've definitely read posts of people doing this, but I'm not sure what EVSE they are using.
Many EVSEs have this capability. I use one on my Gen 1 Leaf (Zwet brand) that allows me at the push of a button to change the current limit from 6 to 16 A in steps of 1 amp. Most wall chargers have DIP switches in them; the installer has to set the DIP switches to limit the current to what the cable, breakers, and supply can handle. So those two examples are push-button selectable and fixed limits respectively.

Other EVSEs, such as the OpenEVSE and Zappi, can be set up to control the pilot signal dynamically so that only surplus solar power is used to charge the car. So the current limit might vary every second or so, depending on clouds and loads, sometimes pausing the charge. These EVSEs usually have facilities to change the algorithm if circumstances change. For example, mid morning you might get called into work in the afternoon, in which case you might change from "charge from surplus solar only" to "maximum charge current", or other policies. Another example might be that once the house battery reaches 50%, you can start allocating say half the surplus solar (solar power in excess of the present load, if there is any) to the car. If you have solar, a house battery, and an EV, there is a lot of flexibility. If one day V2H (Vehicle to House) or V2G (Vehicle to Grid) become common, the options increase again.
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