PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

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vincent.p
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PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by vincent.p »

Hi all,
I'm using a PIP8048 for few months now. it worked well till few weeks ago.
I notice now, that when voltage string is 0V, the inverter withdraws 50W from the grid (around 210 mA/240V) :o .
The power grid consumption is always in that case recorded to be 0W.
This happens even while the 48V battery is full and for the whole night until the voltage string increases and the MPPT regulator starts to work again.
It is not a leakage from the panels, because it still occurs when the string is fully disconnected.
I exchanged also the MPPT input (from 1 to 2) with no result.
The only way to stop it is to disconnect the mains input from the inverter.
Inside temperature is 40°c. It comes really from one day to another.
If anyone has an idea, it is welcome :idea: !

I also contact MPP solar support, but with the time shift (i'm in France) each email ping/pong takes sometime :( !
Kind regards to all !
Vincent
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coulomb
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by coulomb »

vincent.p wrote: Fri, 30 Jul 2021, 21:53 I notice now, that when [ the PV ] voltage string is 0V, the inverter withdraws 50W from the grid (around 210 mA/240V).
The power grid consumption is always in that case recorded to be 0W.
You are probably seeing 50 VAR, but essentially zero real power. In certain modes, especially SUB mode, AC-in is connected to the output of the DC-AC converter (the full bridge inverter). There is a large LC filter there, to filter out switching noise and produce a reasonable sine wave. 50 VAR implies about 2.7 uF, which seems reasonable for the C part of the LC filter. If this is the case, power will flow into and out of the AC input, averaging to very nearly zero over a full 50 Hz cycle. This is normal, and won't be recorded as consumption by your utility power meter, which goes to a lot of trouble to record only real power, not reactive (imaginary) power.

I suppose it could be idle power for the inverter, though I'd expect that to be more than 50W for an 8 kW model. Also, I'd expect that to appear on the AC input power data page. For most Voltronic Power models, idle power comes from the 48V port, i.e. from the battery or from PV.
MG ZS EV 2021 April 2021. Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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vincent.p
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by vincent.p »

Dear Coulomb,
Thank your for your reply.
No, in fact the 50W are recorded by the grid meter itself. This is how I discovered this leakage.
We have here in France, electronic and internet connected meter (called Linky) that allows the consumption tracking by timeslot of 30 minutes.
This is how i saw it, and then i checked on the inverter where it came from.

So far MPP told me it seems to be a Firmware issue. I have a doubt about this, but let's see what is coming next.
They told me they should come with a solution...
Kind regards.
Vincent
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Power : 6 kWp + PIP 8048 MAX + 3 US5000 Pylontech
Cars : ID4 77kwh + Zoe 22kwh
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by kjm »

J'ai le modele 7248MAX et le Linky indique 1600VA lorsque le secteur est connecté sur l'onduleur en mode SBU (si solaire inferieur a la conso) donc plus connecté depuis 1 ans du secteur

I have the 7248MAX model and the Linky indicates 1600VA when the grid is connected to the inverter in SBU mode (if solar less than the consumption) therefore no longer connected for 1 years from the grid
Last edited by kjm on Thu, 05 Aug 2021, 06:30, edited 2 times in total.
dRdoS7
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,

I don't have a 8048MAX, but my 5048MG draws current from the grid when in battery/solar mode. Appears to intermittent, but maybe it's fairly constant, and the meter isn't able to read below a certain value. It's only visible when the separate grid-tie solar isn't outputting.

https://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=6771

dRdoS7
vincent.p
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by vincent.p »

OK, i have checked the link...interesting.
I had a PIP5048GK previously and i never saw this, but the consumption is nearly negligeable.

So far still no solution proposal from MPP. But i will probably put an external relay trigged by the inverter relay itself when the battery voltage is too low.
It should be nearly transparent.

When i got an update from MPP, i post it here.

Thanks.
Vincent
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by kjm »

with the PIP5048GK the linky indicates 640VA, but with the 7248MAX 1640VA and that is why it is no longer connected to the grid and the inverter provides power to the whole house with the possibility of connecting large consumers either on the inverter or on the grid depending on the battery charge (5 x pylontech US2000) and in winter with very cloudy weather I turn off the inverter and it only charges the batteries and if the battery % is sufficient I turn on the inverter there night for a time that I set in Home Assistant.
the consumption on the grid is higher than the consumption of the house therefore the source inverter switches to the grid and if the grids goes out the inverter starts up again.
if they come to the idea of invoicing the VA in France it will hurt (they are ready for anything in France)

The problem with MPPsolar is that they run in circles and at the end we give up.

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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by coulomb »

kjm wrote: Wed, 11 Aug 2021, 00:28 if they come to the idea of invoicing the VA in France it will hurt (they are ready for anything in France)
Remember that the inverter input is capacitive, and your house load is generally somewhat inductive. 1640 VA sounds way too much to me; I suspect that the inverter would just go part way to correcting the power factor of your fridge and freezer. So if you were to be charged for reactive power, the inverter would reduce the bill, not increase it.

Edit: I see now that we were talking about 50 VA before, the 1640 VA would mostly be about 1600 W powering some loads and/or charging the battery.
MG ZS EV 2021 April 2021. Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by kjm »

Hi coulomb,
I have begining solar installation in January 2018 with 4 x 250Wc and one ongrid inverter from Growatt and the problem with VA was same as today with the growatt it was close to 600VA in the LINKY display as long that the inverter no power feed to the grid and if the inverter feed to the grid the VA goes to 0VA.
If I have time enougth I make picture from the Linky and from my the really power needed from home.
Sorry for the bad englich .

14h32 edit:
I have switch the inverter from SBU to SUB for 4 minute and I give you picture from th result
1 : the LINKY display
Capture2.JPG
Capture2.JPG (40.41 KiB) Viewed 3118 times
2: the picture from Home Assistant with solar power, home consumption, and grid power (grid power and home consumption is made with PZEM004)
at the same time the battery charge courant was 4 Amp and the SOC was 100% reading direct from Pylontech battery
Capture4.JPG
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3: another picture from the same test , Linky goes to 0VA if inverter feed to grid power
Capture6.JPG
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4: if no power is feeding to grid
Capture5.JPG
Capture5.JPG (40.57 KiB) Viewed 3116 times
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by coulomb »

Just so I can understand what it happening, can you tell me where the "home consumption" and "grid power" sensors are in the diagram below, please?

Sensors.png
Sensors.png (8.78 KiB) Viewed 3092 times
Also, where the Linky is positioned.

Finally, does the Linky register the direction of apparent power flow? If so, which direction is positive power flow?

The collapse of PV power suggests to me that the inverter may have switched from float stage back to bulk/absorb stage. The CHG led on the removable display will be flashing for bulk/absorb stage, solid for float stage, and may be dark for tens of seconds when switching between them. Can you verify whether the charge stage changes when you switch from SBU to SUB modes? It could just be that the solar charge controller "resets" when the output source priority changes.

Hopefully with the answers to the above, we can figure out better what is happening.
MG ZS EV 2021 April 2021. Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
If you appreciate my work, you can buy me a coffee.
kjm
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by kjm »

The simplified diagram:
Capture1.JPG
Capture1.JPG (59.95 KiB) Viewed 3072 times
PZEM2 + PZEM3 give the home consumption.
PZEM1 is only for reading the grid consumption.
all switchs positions for the last test was all to inverter connected and I have only connected the grid to the inverter input.
PZEM004 can't make the difference of the power direction (inverter to grid or grid to inverter) but the Linky read the feed to grid and give an arrow to the display
Linky don't read VA if direction is inverter to grid only from grid to inverter , in the picture is 0VA and display arrow = feed to grid power
Capture6.JPG
Capture6.JPG (37.28 KiB) Viewed 3072 times
Battery is pylontech with bulk and absorb voltage setting from inverter (Battery type = PYL)
picture from battery voltage at the test moment
Capture2.JPG
Capture2.JPG (25.9 KiB) Viewed 3071 times
vincent.p
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by vincent.p »

Finally the answer from MPP is that when power from solar panels cannot reach a basic 50 watts, instead to take them from the battery the inverter withdraws this power from mains.
This is from my point of view a big mistake.
This is a lost consumption in average of 219kw.h per year (50Wx 12h x365) that could be easily handled by the battery.
Now i will try
1) to install a relay to switch off the grid as long as the battery SOC is ok.
2) or to simulate a voltage string capable of 50W during night and low light period from the battery. A small DC/DC converter should do the job while 100v is enough.

Has any one already tried the 2nd way ? or get a better idea ?
Vincent.
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by kjm »

I never have the mains connected to the inverter.
if I have enough batteries in winter to spend the night I program the starting of the inverter on Home Assistant for a period related to the battery SOC and the next day if not enough solar production I leave the inverter on. 'stop and I only charge the batteries, I have been working like this for 1 years.
and if the inverter is stopped and there is no longer the mains, the system turns on the inverter and inverts the source switch on the inverter output (the mini SOC for me is 40% I do not leave not go lower to always have a reserve for the night, 100% = 12KWh)



the most economical is to either operate only on an inverter or only on the grid, the other solutions (SUB for example with this inverter have a bad performance) with the PIP5048GK it was still acceptable

measured only a day ago in SUB mode
infomation from LINKY
power consumed by the house
Capture2.JPG
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solar production
Capture4.JPG
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power to the battery
Capture5.JPG
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Attachments
Capture1.JPG
Capture1.JPG (21.16 KiB) Viewed 2931 times
Last edited by kjm on Sun, 19 Sep 2021, 01:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by coulomb »

The sudden load at 12:45:20 above may be instructive. The current into the battery suddenly decreased vastly, and the battery by that time might have been close to full. So the premature float bug may have been triggered, causing the solar charging system to reset. That would explain the drop in solar power suddenly right down to zero (a "PV dip"). After staying at zero power for a few seconds, the PV power ramped back up again, and it looks like it ramped back to where it would have been before the dip.

That suggests to me that you may have the battery float voltage setting the same as the battery bulk/absorb voltage setting. Personally, I think that this is a bad idea; battery life is improved by using a lower float voltage.

But that further suggests that you may be using the Pylontech manufacturer recommended settings, 53.2 V for both absorb and float, and these are too high for Axperts. Axperts often overshoot or undershoot their targets (be it inverter power to balance a load, battery voltage, bus voltage, etc). When the battery voltage reaches 54.0 V, the Pylontechs will disconnect from the inverter to protect the cells (which are then at an average of 3.60 V, generally regarded as the highest voltage that LFP cells should be operated at). This can cause all sorts of problems, and may be contributing to your utility power consumption problem somehow.

Perhaps try these settings (which other Axpert users, mainly using 5 kW models, have agreed seems to work better):
Battery bulk/absorb voltage: 52.5 V
Battery float voltage: 51.8 V

You can always put these settings back later if there is no improvement. Of course, if you use battery type = PYL and the BMS cable, then these settings will be forced, so you can't try this.

Edit: Oops, I see that you are in fact using battery type = PYL. So perhaps try changing to battery type = USE (user) temporarily as well.
MG ZS EV 2021 April 2021. Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
If you appreciate my work, you can buy me a coffee.
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by kjm »

I used the USE mode several times and the last time was last month and it didn't change much, I sent an email to MPPsolar to tell them that the voltage measured by the inverter does not match with the voltage read on the batteries by the RS485 port and it would be better to modify the firmware of the inverter to limit the voltage with the information coming from the batteries and not with the voltage measured by the inverter itself which was not correct since I had 54.4 volts reading the batteries via the RS232 port but I did not receive a response from mppsolar.
Capture9.JPG
Capture9.JPG (59.39 KiB) Viewed 2889 times
voltage reading last month with USER setting
Capture8.JPG
Capture8.JPG (22.82 KiB) Viewed 2889 times
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by sergea »

To help to get a better accurate measurement by the inverter use can use 4 cable instead of 2 to connect the pylontech to the inverter
data
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by data »

Is there any new info on this issue. Winter is coming, and again I noticed this nasty power consumption from grid.
Due to ever increasing energy prices I would like to have this somehow addresses...
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by sharkut »

I noticed exactly the same behavior with EASun iSolar SMV 8k (similar to Axpert Max 1). On linky meter when there's no or few load, it show a minimum of nearly 1600VA but in fact very few consumption. When the Solar panels provide sufficient power, It show 0va but only if there's enough load in house

When battery is full or when you don't have one like me, the inverter take a little power from grid (100 to 200w), even if there is sun if load is low (approximatively under continuous 1000w). It seems the inverter take a safety margin to dissipate heat when it Cant dissipate (battery full or no) and to avoid feeding to grid issue. Obviously it seems to be a firmware limitation or bug

I Hope what i say is understandable,I can send graph to illustrate
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by sharkut »

Here is graph :
Image Image

It's always brief when inverter doesn't take small amount grid and display 0W from.
I'm on SUB mode
vincent.p
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Re: PIP 8048 MAX / leakage current from Mains

Post by vincent.p »

Dear all,

On cost point of view, it's around 300kwh/year, roughly 1kwh/day. which is nowadays at least 60€ (or 60USD).
It could make sense to spend money for a less consuming and less powerfull inverter to be switched on during the night. I saw some example like this.
If your nightly consumption is low enough, it's better to switch the inverter off during that time.
Vincent.
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Power : 6 kWp + PIP 8048 MAX + 3 US5000 Pylontech
Cars : ID4 77kwh + Zoe 22kwh
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