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PIP 2424MS MPPT

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HouseOnSun
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PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by HouseOnSun »

Hello.
Maybe you can help me to fix some technical problems.
Sorry for my english in advance. My soldering level is good, but device schematic understanding is poor.
I have Axpert MKS 3K, but I think that it is not original. I found documentation with boards photos, and my device name is: PIP 2424MS.

What happened: one day, I found, that my battery not charge. Display is worked, invertor is worked too (but I’m not sure now) and even show incorrect voltage and current from PV panels. On SCC board was exploded one IGBT transistor. I think, this happened because I was measured my PV panels current and disconnect it on working controller. Maybe just coincidence.
I’m buy new transistors, but I’m not sure: original or not. I’m Buy in local store, not in China. But when I change one transistor and plug battery – it explode again. Now I’m buy new set of transistors in other store and change all 6 of them. But now I’m plug DC power from DIY power supply with voltage and current control. When I power on supply – voltage drops from 24V to 8V, and current consumption was 8Amps. And this poor transistor was quickly heating (but nod dead :)).
Please look at my photos. If you need more measuring or SMD parts name – I can write it here.
Also, I check old transistors and new with tester (look at photos), but I don’t know how this can help :(.
Now , I make some photos and measures, like in Rinaldo's 2015 service manual.
Parts Attribute Reference values Failure status
All: IRFB4410Z
Q1,Q2 Resistor GS: 24.9k, GD: 285k, DS: OL
Q3 Resistor GS: 43.7k, GD: 1380k, DS: OL
Q7 (a patient) Resistor GS: 2.2k, GD: 1168k, DS: OL
Q5,Q6 Resistor GS: 24.8k, GD: 250k, DS: OL

When measured, GD and DS it was very strange - changed from Mohm to kOhm sometimes. Measured by 2 different multimeters.

Diode
Q1,Q2 SD: 0.463V, DS: OL
Q3 SD: 0.267V, DS: 2.410V
Q7(a patient) SD: 0.267V, DS: 2.410V
Q5,Q6 SD: 0.483V, DS: OL


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hiOKBu ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16_Dg34 ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m83TGE ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12dVN-S ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uyBP4y ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sefCjB ... sp=sharing

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coulomb
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by coulomb »

HouseOnSun wrote:
Thu, 05 Mar 2020, 22:32
Hello.
Welcome to the forum.
I have Axpert MKS 3K, but I think that it is not original. I found documentation with boards photos, and my device name is: PIP 2424MS.
Perhaps it's an Axpert MKS 3KP (3 kVA, 2.4 kW). If it actually has the model number PIP-2424MS written on it, then it's a 2.4 kW model that is no longer made (unless it's what is now called a PIP-2424MSE1, also a 3 kVA 2.4 kW model). Photos of your solar charge controller don't look all that familiar to me, though I rarely see inside a 24 V model.

It really helps to provide a photo of the label on the side of the inverter, so we know if it's genuine or a clone, and what exact model it is.
On SCC board was exploded one IGBT transistor. I think, this happened because I was measured my PV panels current and disconnect it on working controller. Maybe just coincidence.
It may well not have been coincidence; I would never disconnect a solar charge controller under load. MPPT Solar Charge Controllers have large inductances in them; in theory, they should be able to handle the disconnection, but I'd be nervous.
When I power on supply – voltage drops from 24V to 8V, and current consumption was 8Amps. And this poor transistor was quickly heating (but nod dead :)).
It sounds like some MOSFET driver(s) is(are) damaged.
I make some photos and measures,
Are these measurements in-circuit or out of circuit?
When measured, GD and DS it was very strange - changed from Mohm to kOhm sometimes. Measured by 2 different multimeters.
MOSFETs with floating gates are like that. Stray electric fields can turn them on partially, or turn them off. That's why DS should be measured with the gate (G) shorted to the source (S). [ Edit: but if in-circuit, there should be a gate to source resistor of around 22 kΩ or 47 kΩ to prevent this. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

HouseOnSun
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by HouseOnSun »

Hello.
Thank you for quick answer.
I'm find many similar modeld in different countries, it have different model names.
I'm also think, that MOSFET driver(s) is(are) damaged. Because I heard this words from wise people. :) But I don't know how to find it.
I make measures in-circuit, because i don't know, what i need desolder for pure measurements :oops:
Thank you for hint, that for DS should be measure with the gate (G) shorted to the source (S). I don't knew this before. :oops:

Can you tell me, what I need to desolder, measure for searching damaged MOSFET? I can write all SMD parts on photo or in tables.

Here my device label.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1X4YSY ... 4lqirLCnYr

And documentation, that I faind in internet. Maybe it is not useless for somebody.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ExQsP ... 6FB0XMZUCu
https://drive.google.com/open?id=19NwIn ... tQQu0DlRY4

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coulomb
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by coulomb »

HouseOnSun wrote:
Fri, 06 Mar 2020, 20:32
I'm find many similar modeld in different countries, it have different model names.
Yes, it's really annoying.
I make measures in-circuit, because i don't know, what i need desolder for pure measurements :oops:
In general, for a 3-terminal device, you need to desolder at least 2 leads. That's usually difficult with MOSFETs, so you have to take them out completely.
Thank you for hint, that for DS should be measure with the gate (G) shorted to the source (S). I don't knew this before.
That advice was for a MOSFET completely out of circuit. If it starts partially conducting when you measure it in-circuit, then you've definitely found a problem: either the gate series resistor (typically 10 Ω or 22 Ω) is open circuit, or the gate pull-down resistor (typically 22 kΩ or 47 kΩ) is open circuit. The pull-down resistor is to prevent the MOSFET from turning on when it should not, i.e. the very thing you're measuring.
Can you tell me, what I need to desolder, measure for searching damaged MOSFET? I can write all SMD parts on photo or in tables.
If the gate drivers are discrete transistors, you can get a good indication by testing them as if they were pairs of diodes. If they are chip drivers, very careful inspection might be all you can do, though you might get clues from the datasheet if you can find it.
Ah. Sadly, that's a clone: clues are the sticker over the serial number, the format of the serial number, and the use of the "¢" symbol instead of "ϕ" for "phase". That means it could differ from any standard Voltronic Power (partial) schematics that you might be able to find.
And documentation, that I faind in internet. Maybe it is not useless for somebody.
Those are testing reports for MPPSolar, a genuine reseller of Voltronic Power inverter-chargers. Those won't apply to your model :cry:

You may be able to get some clues on repair from the PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications topic, though no-one has documented a charge controller repair, and of course clones may differ in details. [ Edit: Also that topic pertains to 48 V models, but the basics are usually quite similar. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

HouseOnSun
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by HouseOnSun »

Thank you.
I will desoldering MOSFET's and other components to check it. But I think, that it must working, because I have original MOSFET's and spare new MOSFET's from party, that I solder into this board. And the have almost the same parameters. I will write my results after 1-2 days.
I can try to draw electric scheme. All components have label. Maybe this will help?
I need to repair my device, because it costs much money for me. And I will need electricity in my village soon.

If I will try to ask in " PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications " topic it is Ok? I don't want to be annoying.

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coulomb
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by coulomb »

HouseOnSun wrote:
Sun, 08 Mar 2020, 05:42
If I will try to ask in " PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications " topic it is Ok? I don't want to be annoying.
Yes, you can post any subsequent data or questions there, that's what it's for. Hopefully your clone will be similar enough to the genuine models to be useful to others.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

HouseOnSun
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by HouseOnSun »

Hello again.

I'm start to check components. I'm find strange resistors: R82,R84,R85 (and other in Gate-Source of MOSFETs on photo) have label 68C. But after desoldering, they have 49.5-50kOhm values. I don't understand this. How this can be? :shock:
And I lost R27, it have label 12C and I don't know it value. Very strange: 30C= 20k Ohm, 01C=10k Ohm. Where is the logic?

The top side of board have two L5109B (High Voltage 1-A Peak Half-Bridge Gate Driver) http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm5109b.pdf connected to my MOSFETs . This is drivers, which you talked about? I will write scheme later.

And I'm find two resistors with burn marks, but they in the RJ45 part of board. Maybe it is not critical. I will inspect this part more carefully.

Resistors: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1F4eAM ... FShzRxS8g0

HouseOnSun
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by HouseOnSun »

Sorry for delay. I left my MPPT board on work and virus of the world happened.
I'm try to draw scheme. Sorry for childly picture. This is not full, but almost all parts, that connected near MOSFETs. This was long work, but I can draw full scheme if needed.
I cannot identify some parts (I'm draw it like a monkey) - maybe it is transistor, maybe voltage regulators. Some pcb tracks are hidden under big coil and i'm find their extension via multimeter buzzer.
Please look at BURNING Q7, because it burn. :roll:

Please tell me what I need to check. If you need some clarification - I'm ready to recheck and redraw.
Thank you.
Docs for PCB parts in PDF1.rar
(1.89 MiB) Downloaded 18 times
Docs for PCB parts in PDF2.rar
(1.83 MiB) Downloaded 15 times
solar11+.png
solar11+.png (406.37 KiB) Viewed 442 times
MpptTop++.jpg
MpptTop++.jpg (510.57 KiB) Viewed 471 times
MpptTop.jpg
MpptTop.jpg (2.81 MiB) Viewed 471 times
Attachments
MpptBotSm.jpg
MpptBotSm.jpg (2.36 MiB) Viewed 471 times
Last edited by HouseOnSun on Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 07:12, edited 1 time in total.

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coulomb
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by coulomb »

Considering that Q7 burned, carefully check the gate resistors and diodes (note: you will need a current limited power supply to test the gate diodes, unless the resistor across the diode is open circuit). So that's R70, R69 (these should be of the order of 10 Ω to 47 Ω) and D87. I'd check all the other gate diodes and resistors too. If any of these has gone open circuit, it's likely that the gate driver chips such as U11 (driving Q7 and more) are damaged.

It looks to me that Q31 and Q32 might be NPN rather than PNP as you have drawn them. It's an odd circuit, to be sure.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

HouseOnSun
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by HouseOnSun »

Yes, you right. Q31 and Q32 is NPN.
All gate diodes and resistors is good. I even unsoldered this diodes and check each of them. R70, R69 also good - 10 and 3 Ohms respectively.
Today I'm find similar case in internet. It also burn Q7, Q6 and U12 = L5109B (High Voltage 1-A Peak Half-Bridge Gate Driver).
I'm not sure how to check if my L5109B work. Unfortunately, I cannot find this IC in local store. I will order it just in case, but it will arrive to me some weeks.

Now I redraw my scheme in previous post.

T1 Terry
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by T1 Terry »

A question if I may, is this fix for the MPPT section or the inverter section of a PIP 2424MS? I have two dead ones here with the main positive cable to the inverter board fried so it would be an interesting project for me to attempt repairing these if things quieten down here at work.

T1 Terry
Green but want to learn

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coulomb
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by coulomb »

T1 Terry wrote:
Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 10:57
is this fix for the MPPT section or the inverter section of a PIP 2424MS?
Yes, that's the MPPT board in the photos. It looks like with different firmware and with slightly different parts populated it could become a stand alone MPPT charger as well. For example, see the "Load-" connection near two unpopulated MOSFETs. That's something you'd expect only on a stand alone MPPT charger.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

T1 Terry
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by T1 Terry »

I have one of the PIP 60 amp MPPT stand alone controllers. Maybe I should pull the boards out and photograph them so it is possible to see what differences there are between the board incorporated into the inverter against the stand alone boards.

T1 Terry
Green but want to learn

HouseOnSun
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by HouseOnSun »

coulomb wrote:
Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 12:35
the MPPT board in the photos
Maybe I can replace LM5109 by something closer for parameters? I cannot find it even in internet store in my country. They propose to buy in China, but it came in 60-90 days. I'm made order already, but maybe I can buy something for check is this scheme work at all?

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coulomb
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Re: PIP 2424MS MPPT

Post by coulomb »

HouseOnSun wrote:
Tue, 05 May 2020, 03:57
Maybe I can replace LM5109 by something closer for parameters? I cannot find it even in internet store in my country. They propose to buy in China, but it came in 60-90 days. I'm made order already, but maybe I can buy something for check is this scheme work at all?
Perhaps from Mouser Poland?

https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Tex ... 0mO29PA%3D

[ Edit: I haven't checked that this is the right package and variant. ]

Shipping is the killer with these inexpensive parts.

You are already using the technique of a current limited power supply. I'd try and do some testing to figure out what else is blown. Perhaps determine if there is any sign of life from the processor. Otherwise, it's probably hopeless, as you likely won't be able to reprogram a replacement. And a 48 pin chip may test your soldering skills. Perhaps check for activity at the serial port. It should start sending short packets once per second. You should plan the measurement, attach everything, and power up for less than a minute to preserve your overheating transistor.

Maybe you can use the same technique to test backwards from the gates of the MOSFETs that are shorting, or disable one temporarily by removing its series gate resistor (but NOT its pull-down resistor). Then you can test in peace. You may find other parts damaged that you also need to order.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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