Idle and Load consumption - PIP 3024GK

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ojeysky
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Idle and Load consumption - PIP 3024GK

Post by ojeysky »

Hello Folks,

I have a 3024GK series setup with 6 panels in series connected to two 24v 150Ah batteries. The manual says that the idle consumption is <35w, however I have seen from a forum where it was indicated that it actually consumes more and that it's consumption increases as load is added.

Does anyone know the actual idle consumption and what is consumed by the inverter when on load? I have noticed that it seem it's consuming a lot but I want to be extra sure that it's not my battery that is merely giving up the ghost.

Regards

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coulomb
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Re: Idle and Load consumption - PIP 3024GK

Post by coulomb »

It consumes (wastes) more power when the inverter is powering a load, but then it's not idle, so it's not idle consumption.

Most of the PIP series have about 93% efficiency on the inverters, excluding idle consumption. So about 7% of the load power is wasted as heat. So for every kilowatt of load, some 70 watts has to come from the battery, the panels, or from the AC input (grid or generator). It's a little more complex than a constant fraction of the load, because although the IGBTs have a relatively constant voltage drop, the battery-side MOSFETs have a constant resistance, so their losses are more proportional to the square of the current (hence the square of the load power, essentially).

I don't know the 24 V models, so I can't tell you their idle consumption. But 35 W doesn't sound unreasonable. The 48 V 5 kVA models have about a 50 W idle consumption. This powers fans, various electronics including the display and control computers, as well as the fixed losses of the inverter.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

ojeysky
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Re: Idle and Load consumption - PIP 3024GK

Post by ojeysky »

Thanks a lot for the feedback
coulomb wrote:
Tue, 06 Aug 2019, 21:00
It consumes (wastes) more power when the inverter is powering a load, but then it's not idle, so it's not idle consumption.

Most of the PIP series have about 93% efficiency on the inverters, excluding idle consumption. So about 7% of the load power is wasted as heat. So for every kilowatt of load, some 70 watts has to come from the battery, the panels, or from the AC input (grid or generator). It's a little more complex than a constant fraction of the load, because although the IGBTs have a relatively constant voltage drop, the battery-side MOSFETs have a constant resistance, so their losses are more proportional to the square of the current (hence the square of the load power, essentially).

I don't know the 24 V models, so I can't tell you their idle consumption. But 35 W doesn't sound unreasonable. The 48 V 5 kVA models have about a 50 W idle consumption. This powers fans, various electronics including the display and control computers, as well as the fixed losses of the inverter.

aim120
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Re: Idle and Load consumption - PIP 3024GK

Post by aim120 »

For the VMII-5000 the idle power is around 48w in battery mode (power drawn from batteries), but in bypass mode it consumes 80watt with the with batteries connected, even when its in float charge for several hours.

After you turn off the inverter and turn off the battery input, and you switch On the inverter in bypass but with bP fault(because battery is disconnected) , it consumes 30watt.

So to keep the batteries in float it needs 50w from the grid, this can't be right?

The clamp meter shows 3.15amp draw but active power is 80watt. Sometimes its 70w, sometimes its hovers around 80/90w when in bypass with batteries in float charge.

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Re: Idle and Load consumption - PIP 3024GK

Post by coulomb »

aim120 wrote:
Tue, 31 Dec 2019, 04:48
For the VMII-5000 the idle power is around 48w in battery mode (power drawn from batteries), but in bypass mode it consumes 80watt with the with batteries connected, even when its in float charge for several hours.
Is this 80 W from the AC-in? I hope so, otherwise, the battery isn't being floated at all.
After you turn off the inverter and turn off the battery input, and you switch On the inverter in bypass but with bP fault(because battery is disconnected) , it consumes 30watt.
With the battery disconnected, surely that 30 W must come from AC-in.
So to keep the batteries in float it needs 50w from the grid, this can't be right?
It seems to take roughly 35 W just to run the inverter. In the VM-III, I assume that it's the same as with an Axpert MKS (PIP-5048MS), where the mains battery charger is the inverter run in reverse. So yes, 50 W from AC-in to float the battery sounds roughly right.
The clamp meter shows 3.15amp draw but active power is 80watt.
The power factor at low loads seems to be very low. This is possible due to the LC filter between the inverter bridge and AC-out (AC-in and AC-out are connected together when utility charging).
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

aim120
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Re: Idle and Load consumption - PIP 3024GK

Post by aim120 »

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 31 Dec 2019, 08:28
Is this 80 W from the AC-in? I hope so, otherwise, the battery isn't being floated at all.

With the battery disconnected, surely that 30 W must come from AC-in.
Yes and yes they are from AC in.
It seems to take roughly 35 W just to run the inverter. In the VM-III, I assume that it's the same as with an Axpert MKS (PIP-5048MS), where the mains battery charger is the inverter run in reverse. So yes, 50 W from AC-in to float the battery sounds roughly right.
I have 12v 150ah flooded lead acid battery. seems a lot since the DC clamp meter doesn't show more then 0.2A and my 500A shunt says zero because it cannot read anything below 0.5A. With 54v float voltage it should consume 11w. So the ac to dc charger inside the pip is wasting away a lot in heat.
The power factor at low loads seems to be very low. This is possible due to the LC filter between the inverter bridge and AC-out (AC-in and AC-out are connected together when utility charging).
So this VMII-5000 can blend power from AC and inverter right, if the load is higher then what solar produces it takes the remaining power from the grid, instead of switching to bypass and dumping the the load on the grid input ?

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Re: Idle and Load consumption - PIP 3024GK

Post by coulomb »

aim120 wrote:
Tue, 31 Dec 2019, 18:41
So the ac to dc charger inside the pip is wasting away a lot in heat.
Yes. So the ~5 W of battery charge power is being swamped by some 45 W of power for the inverter, fans, display, other electronics, etc.
So this VMII-5000 can blend power from AC and inverter right, if the load is higher then what solar produces it takes the remaining power from the grid, instead of switching to bypass and dumping the the load on the grid input ?
I'm very hazy about this. My theory is that when in line (bypass) mode, some of the power from the PV that would normally go via the 400 V bus to the battery via the bidirectional DC-DC converter can get pushed into the inverter, which is synchronised to the AC-in, and supplies some of the load power. If the battery voltage happened to be high for whatever reason, some battery power could also add to the 400 V bus power, pushing into the inverter and hence the load.

So if I'm right, you have to be in bypass mode for this blending to happen, not battery mode. You would see two arrows towards the fluoro bulb load on the AC display, one from the AC-in, and one from the inverter.

Of course, that means that when the AC load suddenly decreases, some energy will push into the mains briefly, turning it into a grid interactive inverter without regulatory approval. So they don't tend to say much about that. Or of course, I could be totally wrong.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

aim120
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Re: Idle and Load consumption - PIP 3024GK

Post by aim120 »

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 31 Dec 2019, 20:05

I'm very hazy about this. My theory is that when in line (bypass) mode, some of the power from the PV that would normally go via the 400 V bus to the battery via the bidirectional DC-DC converter can get pushed into the inverter, which is synchronised to the AC-in, and supplies some of the load power. If the battery voltage happened to be high for whatever reason, some battery power could also add to the 400 V bus power, pushing into the inverter and hence the load.

So if I'm right, you have to be in bypass mode for this blending to happen, not battery mode. You would see two arrows towards the fluoro bulb load on the AC display, one from the AC-in, and one from the inverter.

Of course, that means that when the AC load suddenly decreases, some energy will push into the mains briefly, turning it into a grid interactive inverter without regulatory approval. So they don't tend to say much about that. Or of course, I could be totally wrong.
So VMII-5000 QPIGS bus voltage in Ac mains is 405 to 408v with zero load, with a fully charged battery, in battery mode it was bus 367v and dropping as battery voltage drops with zero load. Also check the arrows in the display in the below manual, the high voltage model doesn't show the "bypass" in Solar and SBU mode. Where as the low voltage Mppt models have bypass and PV to battery charge only.
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coulomb
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Re: Idle and Load consumption - PIP 3024GK

Post by coulomb »

aim120 wrote:
Tue, 31 Dec 2019, 20:51
So VMII-5000 QPIGS bus voltage in Ac mains is 405 to 408v with zero load, with a fully charged battery, in battery mode it was bus 367v and dropping as battery voltage drops with zero load.
These are probably because the bus voltage is close to 7 times the battery voltage (8 times the battery voltage for 58.4 V max models). So your battery at full charge was 57.9 - 58.3 V (14.5 - 14.6 V per 12 V module if 4S lead acid), and dropped to around 52.4 V (13.1 V per 12 V module) when it stopped being charged.
Also check the arrows in the display in the below manual, the high voltage model doesn't show the "bypass" in Solar and SBU mode.
Well spotted! Another clue that grid and solar blending is happening.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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