4048 Inverter as 3 Phase setup but utility is only single phase

non-EV Solar, Wind and other renewable power sources
non-EV batteries and other energy storage stuff
Forum rules
Important!
This forum is for discussion of Non-EV matters.
Post Reply
Brandt66
Noobie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat, 02 Sep 2017, 19:58
Real Name: Joerg Brandt
Location: Thailand

4048 Inverter as 3 Phase setup but utility is only single phase

Post by Brandt66 »

Hello everybody ,

Maybe somebody can advise me this is possible to do or not.

I have in total 5 inverters in parallel mode in the moment and everything works fine.

As I get an electric car and the charger is 6.6Kw 3 Phase I have the idea to change the settings to 3 parallel on Phase 1 and each one inverter Phase 2 and 3

The problem is now that the Utility is single phase and so the Inverter for Phase 2 and 3 would have no input.

Somebody know it is possible to run Phase 2 and 3 in off grid mode or I will get error 84??
User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4195
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: 4048 Inverter as 3 Phase setup but utility is only single phase

Post by coulomb »

Brandt66 wrote: Thu, 27 Jun 2019, 16:54 The problem is now that the Utility is single phase and so the Inverter for Phase 2 and 3 would have no input.

Somebody know it is possible to run Phase 2 and 3 in off grid mode or I will get error 84??
You won't get fault code 84, at least according to my analysis, as that only happens with the output mode of PAR (parallel, not 3-phase).

But I can imagine it will be cranky about not having expected-phase mains for 2 of the inverters. And it certainly could not handle going to bypass mode, for example in the case of a weak battery (battery voltage falls below a certain level).

I was going to suggest that you could dedicate two inverters to the EV, not in 3-phase mode just SNG, if that's even possible. Alternatively, just parallel the inputs so they all get the same phase. But that means that the neutral cable will carry the full ~30 A of return current, instead of just the imbalance current. It's hard to guess whether it's designed for that or not, even if the neutral conductor in the charge cable has sufficient cross sectional area (at least 4 mm², preferably 5 mm²). You'd need to know that the neutral wire inside the EV and its various connections has sufficient current carrying capacity as well.

I suppose it's possible that the EV will allow two phases to drop off in the case where you run out of battery capacity and have to go to bypass (line) mode. You could configure the inverters that have AC-in connected to charge the battery in that situation, so that you can switch back to battery mode as soon as possible, and continue three phase charging the EV. The parallel guide seem to suggest that 3+1+1 inverters is a valid configuration, but be careful with the wiring and triple check it. It seems worth a try.

[ Edit: of course, if the grid isn't available and your battery is weak, you can't do that, but you probably don't want to charge your EV then either. ]

If that doesn't work, I'd say you will need to pay to get three phase connected, if that's possible.

[ Edit: "cable inside the EV" → "neutral wire inside the EV" ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
Brandt66
Noobie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat, 02 Sep 2017, 19:58
Real Name: Joerg Brandt
Location: Thailand

Re: 4048 Inverter as 3 Phase setup but utility is only single phase

Post by Brandt66 »

Dear Coulomb,

Thanks for this detailed advise.


I am not real afraid for an empty battery never had less the 35% SOC so far.
I consider to charge the car only after lunch as my buttery is normal back to 100% at this time.
The AC Input of the Charger is in Star connection 85-265V 32 Max i could assume that parallel the 3 Phase could work so i will check the Neutral cable is big enough or not.
If not i will try the 3 Phase setup of the inverter.

Will make an update on this after the car is delivered.

Normal i like to put the Photo from the Charger but not find out how to do this here :? ..
Brandt66
Noobie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat, 02 Sep 2017, 19:58
Real Name: Joerg Brandt
Location: Thailand

Re: 4048 Inverter as 3 Phase setup but utility is only single phase

Post by Brandt66 »

Here the Update promised,

after 3 month of waiting finally we get the MG ZS EV delivered and the charger was installed a week later but...
The charger is single phase not 3 phase as preciously promised.
The car charger has 6600 Watt and need 32 Ampere at 230 Volt.
My 4048 setup is 3x Parallel L1 Phase and each one 4048 for L2 and L3 it works fine for all loads in my House - the EV Charger and the 3 Phase Compressor. The 1500Ah Lithium Battery 15P-14S has no problem to charge the car during night but is 40% to 50% SOC after finish charging, however we did this for testing only normally we charge on the day without the need to use the battery.

Some Info to the Car can be found Here https://mgcars.com/en/mg-models/mgzsev/detail/overview

The range is given with 334km in ECO mode but we can reach around 300km only.
Charging time from 20% to full around 6h @ 6600 Watt

Picture from the Installation and Charging Test
Attachments
MG_ZS_EV.png
MG_ZS_EV.png (527.37 KiB) Viewed 1034 times
User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4195
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: 4048 Inverter as 3 Phase setup but utility is only single phase

Post by coulomb »

Brandt66 wrote: Tue, 01 Oct 2019, 19:32 after 3 month of waiting finally we get the MG ZS EV delivered...
It looks like that's a British designed and styled car manufactured in China; is that correct?

As a point of interest, how does its purchase price compare with similarly sized petrol or diesel cars?
The charger is single phase not 3 phase as preciously promised.
The car charger has 6600 Watt and need 32 Ampere at 230 Volt.
So it's a type 2 charge port, but it only uses L1 and N? Presumably both of these conductors must be rated for 30 or 32 A.
Do you bother connecting L2 and L3 at the EVSE? I suppose one day a car may want to charge there, that uses all three phases.
Presumably you charge this on your L1 phase which has the three PIP-4048s in parallel?
My 4048 setup is 3x Parallel L1 Phase and each one 4048 for L2 and L3 it works fine for all loads in my House - the EV Charger and the 3 Phase Compressor.
Impressive.
The 1500Ah Lithium Battery 15P-14S has no problem to charge the car during night but...
Wow. That's really impressive!
Picture from the Installation and Charging Test
Thanks for fixing the image. That charge cord is impressively long, and the EVSE looks rather futuristic, like you'd expect on a space ship.

Is the car outside because the rest of the garage is full of inverters and batteries? ;)

Thanks for the update; fascinating.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
Brandt66
Noobie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat, 02 Sep 2017, 19:58
Real Name: Joerg Brandt
Location: Thailand

Re: 4048 Inverter as 3 Phase setup but utility is only single phase

Post by Brandt66 »

Sorry for my late reply.

The Car is Manufactured by SIAC and sell in Thailand as MG, due to an Import agreement between China and Thailand the car has only 7% import tax all other countries have 100% on Cars!

The Car is with 1,190,000 THB still expensive but the cheapest in the Market. An comparable MG ZS with ICE starts at 679,000 THB.

How ever under consideration that an ICE car need 3 THB/Km Gasoline and the EV need 0.8 THB/km some of the Money will come back to my pocket over the time (and the solar system is paid already so i drive 0 THB/Km ;)

Why the Car is Outside? I learned Tesla's burning during charging some times so this Car is from China.... :lol: "Safety First"

I made an Video about the complete System https://youtu.be/0zc7NdH56Jc

Comments are welcome.
rhills
Site Admin
Posts: 469
Joined: Fri, 25 Jul 2008, 01:57
Real Name: Rob Hills
Location: Waikiki, WA

Re: 4048 Inverter as 3 Phase setup but utility is only single phase

Post by rhills »

Brandt66 wrote: Thu, 02 Jan 2020, 20:08 ...
Why the Car is Outside? I learned Tesla's burning during charging some times so this Car is from China.... :lol: "Safety First"
...
But with the car in full tropical sun while charging, battery temperatures may be higher (or battery cooling system working harder if it has one) causing shorter battery life and possibly increased risk of fire?
Rob Hills
AEVA Webmaster
2014 Mitsubishi Outlander Aspire PHEV
Petrol Usage to last refill: Jul 2014 - Apr 2020
Total Petrol: 720.1L
ODO: 61386
Av Consumption: 1.17 L/100km
Brandt66
Noobie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat, 02 Sep 2017, 19:58
Real Name: Joerg Brandt
Location: Thailand

Re: 4048 Inverter as 3 Phase setup but utility is only single phase

Post by Brandt66 »

The Battery has a Cooling System and normally is charged in the afternoon or night.
Post Reply