PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

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mariusvaida
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by mariusvaida »

Hello everybody! I have a 4048MS clone inverter to try to repair it. I changed all the mosfets and now i'm on IGBT's. The IRGP4066 items seem to be fine, but not the IRGP4750D.
The problem is that i can't find anymore the 4750D as it's obsolete. Do someone knows any equivalent for this? STGW80H65DFB would work?

Thank you,
Marius.
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coulomb
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

jdavies1994 wrote: Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 23:47 It appears I have spoken too soon now all hooked up again I have an error 60.
So that's power feedback protection. It seems to measure power feeding back into the output of the inverter.

So the phase has to be out slightly, I think. Did you replace the IGBTs with the same part number as before? Is it possible the new ones are faster or slower than the originals?

Or perhaps a gate resistor is off in value? The gate resistors and the diodes they are sometimes paralleled with determine exact timing of the IGBTs, which probably doesn't matter too much for single inverter operation, but matters when they are paralleled.

Another possibility is that the measurement circuit is bad (either output voltage, output current, or both); you could check this by measuring the load with an AC power meter and check against values reported by the inverter.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
pikapower
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by pikapower »

Hi guys. I'm working on repairing a PIP 5048MG inverter. Some person (it was not me) connected the inverter output to the power grid, which as you can imagine, did not end very well. I replaced the IGBTs that were blown out. On the bottom of the board, there is a resistor and transistor that are also damaged. I assume this is the gate driving circuitry? I don't know a whole lot regarding the engineering of these things, but I can do basic troubleshooting and repairs. I can't see any part number on them. They're covered with a coating, which I did carefully scrape off one and still don't see any markings. Any idea what part number this may be? Or where I could find out?

Thank you

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coulomb
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

pikapower wrote: Mon, 14 Dec 2020, 05:11I can't see any part number on them. ... Any idea what part number this may be?
They probably would have had a marking code (a sort of abbreviated part number) of L4, indicating a BAT54 part. You can buy these parts on-line; for small quantities, RS Online works out cheaper because they still have free postage for small orders. You'll have about 95 spares though, since you have to buy in a pack of at least 100.
Or where I could find out?
I'm working with a forum reader on the PowerForum; he's traced out a complete schematic for an Axpert MKS (PIP-MS). He's been quiet for a while. If I don't hear from him soon, I'll try and make it suitable for publication and post it there and here. It's something that's very easy to make a mistake with, and we're up to revision 9 already.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
vytasbgm
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by vytasbgm »

Hi. We have IBM UPS RT 5000 XHV, based on APC. The problem we face is that no output can be turned on, and log says that "UPS: An abnormal output voltage exists.", followed by "UPS: The output power is turned off.". The general fault (X) LED is lit continuously. We have replaced batteries (several times), but no positive results were gained. Question: is there any way to repair the device? We have attempted to measure transistors' resistances between base, collector, emitter according to this "PIP HS_MS 4-5KVA new Service manual": http://forums.aeva.asn.au/uploads/4111/ ... 01506A.pdf , but it seems to be quite a different model with different parts, because the resistances were quite different.

Sorry if not there, but no more sources were found about this.

[ Edited Coulomb: added description of the download; many readers will recognise this manual and not need to download it again. ]
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

vytasbgm wrote: Mon, 21 Dec 2020, 23:33 Question: is there any way to repair the device? We have attempted to measure transistors' resistances between base, collector, emitter according to ... , but it seems to be quite a different model with different parts, because the resistances were quite different.
A UPS is going to have only very general similarities to the PIP inverter-chargers. Also, the resistance figures given in those manuals are often nearly worthless, as most of them are highly dependent on the multimeter used and sometimes on values like leakage which vary a lot with temperature and individual components. The semiconductor junction voltages are much more useful, although again the exact figures will vary from device to device.

In general, troubleshooting something as complex as a UPS without a schematic is probably futile, beyond checking the most basic things, such as short circuit of the main switching devices, and checking that the resistance of things like gate resistors is within the expected range (10 - 100Ω), and equivalent parts measure the same.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
elco
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by elco »

Hi all....we have a PIP5048 on our property.. The unit failed and disassembly revealed the remains of a gecko across the bus. There do not appear to be any blown components... Only missing copper tracks and burnt PCB..I've exchanged half a dozen emails with MPP but have not got the right I in formation.I need a picture of the bottom of the main PCB around C40, C41 and resistors R159 to R166.....rather urgent as were running on a backup inverter in the meantime.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

elco wrote: Thu, 07 Jan 2021, 19:45 I need a picture of the bottom of the main PCB around C40, C41 and resistors R159 to R166.....rather urgent...
Use "Open image in new tab" or similar for more detail. Edit: this is from an older model, manufactured about 2013, but I believe that this part hasn't changed much.
Edit 2: the value of the resistors R159-R166 may be different for 64 volt models, however. I don't have such a model to check.

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Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
elco
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by elco »

Thanks Mike!

That is exactly what I need...heading straight to the bench to make the repairs...most of the resistors are 1M and I can still see the ID on one that is cracked so should not be a big issue (I hope..) to get this going again. MJL
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by alextic »

Hi.

I am trying to repair the main board of a PIP5048MGX. Visible damages can be seen on the battery side MOSFETs and on a SMPS that powers the output circuitry of two gate drivers.

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The power MOSFETs will be replaced with something from TI (I've seen some suggestions in earlier posts), while the SMPS switch is a widely available FDT86102LZ. The SMPS controller
is a UC3845G from Unisonic Technologies (Taiwan); if damaged and not available, I could try the (original?) UC3845 from TI (pin-to-pin compatible, same characteristics).

However, I could not find a place to buy the SMPS transformer, marked 41-070704-00G, nor a datasheet for it. Does anybody know an equivalent transformer that is available for purchase?

Alexandru
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

alextic wrote: Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 00:10 However, I could not find a place to buy the SMPS transformer, marked 41-070704-00G, nor a datasheet for it. Does anybody know an equivalent transformer that is available for purchase?
Sadly, those transformers and multi-winding inductors are custom components. It might be possible to buy them from the manufacturer via your reseller, though I doubt that they would be interested in small quantities.

It might be possible to track down the magnetic core and either wind your own windings and insulation, or get a specialised shop to make one for you. But again, it might be completely impractical at small quantities.

The best option, still a poor one, might be to find a similar transformer on a parts board that can't be repaired. You would be hoping that they don't change the specifications of those transformers over the years and the various models. Perhaps the part numbers can be matched to assure compatibility.

Edit: I have a parts main board from 2013, but the equivalent transformer has a different part number. The one you need ends in "-00G", which I believe means it's version one of that part. That may indicate that it's unique to that model.

I forgot to mention one last desperation option: to replace the entire main board. The best option for that is again from the manufacturer via your supplier. There are also main boards on Ebay and similar, of dubious heritage and quality, but the PIP-MGX is a fairly recent model, which I suspect won't have a third party main board available for some time. I guess those third party manufacturers have to get the transformers from somewhere, so there may be a very outside chance of finding that part on Ebay etc.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir1235 »

alextic wrote: Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 00:10 Hi.

I am trying to repair the main board of a PIP5048MGX. Visible damages can be seen on the battery side MOSFETs and on a SMPS that powers the output circuitry of two gate drivers.

[image]

Alexandru
My board is also damaged, Can I replace power MOSFETS with IRFB4110 ?
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by alextic »

Thank you Coulomb for your detailed reply.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by alextic »

tahir1235 wrote: Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 11:03 My board is also damaged, Can I replace power MOSFETS with IRFB4110 ?
I think that IRFB4110 can be safely used to replace NCEP85T16.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir1235 »

coulomb wrote: Mon, 04 Sep 2017, 13:32

Edit: be aware that when removing the MOSFETs, solder will tend to be sucked away from the 47 kΩ and the 22 Ω resistors connected to the MOSFET gates. It's probably a good idea to check for the 11.7 kΩ across any of the 47 kΩ resistors after installing the replacement MOSFETs. If any of the 47 kΩ or 22 Ω resistors are open circuit, you'll read something quite different from 11.7 kΩ.

Hello coulomb,
I am reading 9.8  kΩ across 47 kΩ resistors. Is that ok or should I replace ?

Also really appreciate if you can explain that why its not reading 47kΩ with multimeter.

Thanks.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

tahir1235 wrote: Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 23:27 I am reading 9.8  kΩ across 47 kΩ resistors. Is that ok or should I replace ?
I'd try to find the reason for the difference. It could be that one of the MOSFET's gates is leaky. If so, it's likely not performing correctly, and the other three will get stressed and could soon fail.

[ Edit: are you saying that ALL the 47 kΩ resistors are measuring 9.8 kΩ, or just one set? ]

Even if it's just because one of the 47 kΩ resistors has gone low in value, I'd replace because it means it's been stressed, and may have a shortened life. The actual value of the resistor is not critical, it just pulls the gate low in cases where the driving circuit has failed, or is powered down.
Also really appreciate if you can explain that why its not reading 47kΩ with multimeter.
Each gate driver drives 4 MOSFETs in parallel, via their 22 Ω gate resistors. The 22 Ω resistors are negligible in resistance compared to 47,000 Ω (0.05%), so the four 47 kΩ resistors are effectively in parallel. So each measures close to 47/4 kΩ, or 11.75 kΩ. Slight leakage from the powered-down driver may make it closer to 11.7 kΩ in reality.

To find out what's going on, I suggest removing one or more of the 22 Ω resistors. Then you should be able to measure very close to 47 kΩ across the associated gate pulldown resistor, and about 47/3 = 15.7 kΩ resistors across the others (which are still in parallel, assuming you only removed one of the 22 Ω resistors). When you find the one that's low, remove that 47 kΩ resistor, and measure it and the gate separately. Be careful of static discharge at that point, because the gate without its 47 kΩ resistor will be sensitive to static discharge. The gate to source resistance of the MOSFET should be nearly open circuit, certainly over 1 MΩ.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir1235 »

coulomb wrote: Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 08:51
[ Edit: are you saying that ALL the 47 kΩ resistors are measuring 9.8 kΩ, or just one set? ]
Thanks for the reply Coulomb.

Right now all the 47 kΩ resistors are measuring 9.8 kΩ
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

tahir1235 wrote: Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 09:33 Right now all the 47 kΩ resistors are measuring 9.8 kΩ
Ah. How confident are you about the accuracy of your multimeter? Are the resistors marked 473 or perhaps 4702? Perhaps they are actually 39 kΩ. 39/4 = 9.75 kΩ.

Does the measurement change if you swap the multimeter leads around?
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir1235 »

coulomb wrote: Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 10:09 Ah. How confident are you about the accuracy of your multimeter? Are the resistors marked 473 or perhaps 4702? Perhaps they are actually 39 kΩ. 39/4 = 9.75 kΩ.
I tested with 2 different multimeters, both measure almost the same. Resistors marked as 4702.
coulomb wrote: Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 10:09 Does the measurement change if you swap the multimeter leads around?
No, it stays same.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Vissie »

Good day
I have an Axpert 5KVa 5M inverter. The older ones with the mppt charger on the huge heatsink on top of the inverter
I need to know how it measures charge current from solar. While it charges from solar it shows 1A max while measuring with a meter outside it goes up to high charge amps.
I does show correctly when charging from ac and also when checking how much current it draws from the battery when driving a load
Thanks
Vissie
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coulomb
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

Vissie wrote: Tue, 26 Jan 2021, 18:40 I need to know how it measures charge current from solar.
The Solar Charge Controller (SCC) has its own 8-bit microcontroller with its own firmware. It sends the PV current to the main DSP in the inverter via an internal serial connection. Once a second, the SCC sends a QGS command to the DSP. The first three fields of this command are the PV voltage, battery voltage as measured by the SCC, and SCC output current. Note: the current value sent and displayed by the inverter are battery-side amps, NOT PV amps. So if your panels are at 100 V and your battery is at 50 V, the sent value will be twice the PV current.

How the SCC microcontroller actually measures the current, I don't know. It's likely a current shunt and operational amplifier.

The above pretty much applies to all the 145 V max SCCs; there is a completely different system for the 450 V and 500 V max SCCs.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Vissie »

Coulomb wrote:How the SCC microcontroller actually measures the current, I don't know. It's likely a current shunt and operational amplifier.
I checked for very low value resistors in parallel but don't see any.
Unfortunately I don't have another scc to test with

[ Edited Coulomb: Added quote tags. ]
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Vissie »

Oh I found shunt resistors on an old scc board will check mine
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tahir1235
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir1235 »

DC/DC IGBT Q28 blown out. Please suggest equelent part number.

current part number is : FGH75T65SHDT

Thanks
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Vissie »

Vissie wrote: Wed, 27 Jan 2021, 02:46 Oh I found shunt resistors on an old scc board will check mine
Will it help to reload the firmware? Does it also update the scc firmware?
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