PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

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catalincre
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by catalincre »

Any fan ... With the arduino board modifications, I mean. Sorry, I thought is self explanatory.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by jds686868 »

Well, what I thought was a successful repair turned out to be very short lived.

Background.
Inverter came up with error 2 - over temp. MPP Solar as part of their troubleshooting asked me to remove NTC3 and NTC4 sensors - error remained. Waiting for new board to ship - may be a couple of months.. This main board was replaced only a few months back so is fairly new - hmmmm.

After reading through the service manual I went through their troubleshooting checks 3.10.... results as follows:
NTC3 = 16k (should be 15k)
NTC4 = 15.5k (should be 15k)
NTC1 = 14k in circuit, 40k out of circuit (should be 8~9k in curcuit)
R272 = 738 Ohm (should be 15k)
R267 = 1.97K (should be 1.9~2.1k)

Considering the troubleshooting process says to remove NTC3 and NTC4 to see if they are at fault, I thought I would remove NTC1 more in hope than anything (would expect a short or very low reading to cause the error).

Worked! Ran great for about 12 hours. Sometime overnight (cool for Queensland, showery, very little load), it shutdown again with error 2. I have rechecked the above resistors and NTC's and all seem to read ok. I used a heatgun to get the heatsink temps up and the NTC's had readings between 2.6k (almost too hot to touch) to 6k (hot water temp - guess around 50deg). Without knowing the specs of these this seems to be ok.

Any suggestions?
cheers
John
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by manio »

Hello guys,
First of all I want to thank you all for helping, sharing your knowledge, schematics and service manuals. It is really helpful thread and forum!

I am the happy owner of the Voltronic Power Axpert MEX 3K-24. Local reseller has just rebranded it to the "Skymax", but in fact
it is the Axpert model. My blog post about monitoring it under linux with inverter photos: https://skyboo.net/2017/03/monitoring-v ... der-linux/.

It is a single phase 24 battery volts model with 3000 VA / 2400 W nominal output.
It was working mainly as the UPS (I was planning connect PV at some point, but finally the inverter doesn't have the PV connected ever).
Most of the time it was bypassing the AC power to the output and maintaining battery current, from time to time it was working on battery (rare circumstances).
On the load side I mainly have electronic equipment and also fridge, freezer and a small water pump. The average load was about 25-30%.
I have to admit that the inverter environment was hard mainly during summertime because it's in the garage without air conditioning.

Now I'll descibe the problem...
One day, early morning I woke up because of permanent beep from the garage. Inverter's AC output was off. The 16A overcurrent protection has triggered in the main switchgear.
Red FAULT LED, and at the LCD: error code 09 (bus soft start failed).
At the same time I can smell burned electronics from the inverter.
The inverter was running for almost 5 years and now this problem.

After recovering main power in the house I disassembled the inverter.
From visual inspection I can see that the IRFB3206 has cracked, underneath the PCB there is a blew resistor (or even two).
There are 16x IRFB3206 on one side (including the burned one) and four IRFB7434 on the other side of the radiator.

Here is my repair plan:
1. Replace all 16 MOSFETs with some replacements. Basing on your experience, what you suggest?
2. Check and replace blew resistors in the drive circuits.
2. Replace capacitors which I believe was the main cause of the problem... according to your previous comments most important is the low impedance @ 100kHz.

Similar as Roman khan I have four 4200uF/35V produced by AISHI
There are also two biggest (in size) capacitors, which are: 470uF/500V (manufactured by Elite)
Which capacitors you advice to replace and do you have any specific suggestions for replacement in this inverter?

What else it is worth to check or replace during the repair?

I am attaching the photos,
regards!

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

manio wrote: Wed, 22 Apr 2020, 13:58 Hello guys,
Welcome to the forum.
Here is my repair plan:
1. Replace all 16 MOSFETs with some replacements. Basing on your experience, what you suggest?
I really don't know the 24 V models well. I'd say you could replace them with the same part, or any with similar specifications. At 24 V, as long as the capacitors are good, there should be no issue with voltage headroom.
2. Check and replace blew resistors in the drive circuits.
You'll need to check more than that. In particular, the diode in series with the 10 Ω resistor that blew (if that's what it was), but also all the 22 Ω, 10 Ω, and even 200 Ω resistors, check every diode, and the driver transistors. It looks like they use the same circuit as the 48 V models.
2. Replace capacitors which I believe was the main cause of the problem... according to your previous comments most important is the low impedance @ 100kHz.
Exactly.
There are also two biggest (in size) capacitors, which are: 470uF/500V (manufactured by Elite)
I've never found a need to replace those. I suspect that the IGBTs are protected much more by the film capacitors, which don't dry out over time.
Which capacitors you advice to replace and do you have any specific suggestions for replacement in this inverter?
Just the four medium sized ones near the MOSFETs. No specific suggestions for 24 V models; as you say, look for low impedance @ 100 kHz but keep an eye on ripple current rating, and make sure that they have a good rated life (originals are likely 2000 h, so look for at least 5000 h and preferably 10 000 h parts (the latter are hard to find). Use the parametric searches of the big on-line suppliers (Digi-Key, Mouser, element14, etc).
What else it is worth to check or replace during the repair?
Nothing apart from the MOSFET driver components mentioned above. You may wish to make the fans blow into the unit rather than out.
I am attaching the photos,
Excellent photos, thanks.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by metergeek »

weber wrote: Sun, 21 Dec 2014, 02:47 What's driving me nuts, and I think is likely to drive the customer nuts, is the fan noise. With only 300 watts being supplied it's unpleasant to be in the same room. When the water pump comes on and the load jumps up to a whopping 600 watts Image the fan instantly roars to even higher speed. The air temperature coming out is indistinguishable from ambient. It doesn't sound much worse when I turn on the 2400 watt kettle.

Can anyone tell me why inverter designers choose to make the fan(s) blow out of the bottom of the case, thereby opposing natural convection and failing to force air to flow fast close to the surface of the heatsink?

I have used Vantec Stealth fans to replace the noisy ones in Latronics inverters in the past, but their air flow (at 27 CFM) is too low compared to the fans in the PIP-4048MS. These are ADDA AD0812XB-A7FGP (80x80x25 mm, 12 V, 6.6 W) which I can't find the airflow specs for, but extrapolating from similar part numbers looks to be about 70 CFM. [Admitting defeat on the non-SI units here]

There's some discussion in another forum here http://www.photovoltaikforum.com/pv-inselanlagen-f57/pip4048-mpp-solar-improvements-t104258.html

[Edit: Deleted text "Latronics inverters are the same." They are not. They sensibly blow upward onto the heatsink.]
Hey weber, a follow-up question to this, I have opposite occurrence where the load would increase and the fan speed does not increase to compensate and the inverter eventually throws a 02 fault code, meaning a temperature rise of 100 degrees, I removed the two fans and they do work at full throttle but I'm not sure why it does not increase during temperature rise.

any suggestions ??
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by weber »

metergeek wrote: Sun, 26 Apr 2020, 21:52 Hey weber, a follow-up question to this, I have opposite occurrence where the load would increase and the fan speed does not increase to compensate and the inverter eventually throws a 02 fault code, meaning a temperature rise of 100 degrees, I removed the two fans and they do work at full throttle but I'm not sure why it does not increase during temperature rise.

any suggestions ??
What main firmware version are you running?

I can only guess there might be a fault in the circuitry that controls the fan speed. We don't have a schematic for that, but Coulomb made this schematic for the fan speed sensing circuitry, so at least you can ignore those components if you decide to trace the control circuit yourself.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

It seems that the fan speed control output from the control board is on pin 40 (FAN SPEED/). That's ninth from one end (48 pins total, 3 groups of 16). Depending on where the control circuit (if any) is located, it might be easier to start from there. [ Edit: the problem could even be the digital buffer on the control card. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Replacing comms board with an isolated USB to TTL device

Post by Martino.Q »

Hi, is the first time that a write here, but i read all the forum.
On my optisolar 5k serial communication is blow.
I'm thinking to substitute whit this
DSD TECH SH-U09C3 Adattatore da USB a TTL isolato con FTDI FT232RL IC
https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B07TS3 ... 7NX6&psc=1

so i can connect direclty to my raspberry or Arduino.
This is my hope, someone can help me???

Some one have some arduino sketch and library for connect the inverter to arduino and then to Blynk?
I just found this:
https://community.blynk.cc/t/problem-wi ... ed/31864/5
that use serial pins but not tested.
Easy work whit Raspberry tested whit this:
https://github.com/jblance/mpp-solar
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Re: Replacing comms board with an isolated USB to TTL device

Post by coulomb »

Martino.Q wrote: Mon, 27 Apr 2020, 18:41 Hi, is the first time that a write here,
Welcome to the forum. I moved your post here, since it's a hardware modification question.
but i read all the forum.
Wow. I think we need a medal for people that achieve that :)
On my optisolar 5k serial communication is blow.
I'm thinking to substitute whit this
DSD TECH SH-U09C3 Adattatore da USB a TTL isolato con FTDI FT232RL IC
https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B07TS3 ... 7NX6&psc=1
If I understand you correctly, your serial communications board no longer works, and you are having trouble replacing or repairing it. You want to use the isolated RS-232 to TTL device to bypass the broken parts of the communications board. This device would live inside the inverter, probably near the comms board, but in such a way that you can connect a USB extension cable to it.

You would then be able to talk to the inverter over USB as if it was a serial port, e.g. using Watchpower or one of the several monitoring programs out there.

[ Edit: If I understand your proposal correctly, I believe it has a good chance of working. You'll have to cut some tracks and add some wires. ]
so i can connect direclty to my raspberry or Arduino.
I don't know about that. It seems to me that both USB ends would be devices, not hosts, so you might need to either change the Raspberry / Arduino into a host (I have no idea how to do that), or interconnect via a special cable that looks like a host to both ends.

Thinking about this some more, ICC runs on a Raspberry Pi, (there was a Windows version, but it's no longer supported) and I believe that it connects directly to the inverter. So it seems to me that it must be possible to set the Pi into host mode. But I'm no USB expert. I also don't know or particularly care how ICC connects to the inverter (USB or serial port). Someone who uses ICC or SolPipLog etc might be able to help more with that side of your project.

[ Edit: added sentence about moving the post to this topic. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Martino.Q »

Hi coulomb,
I found inspiration at the topic: "Bricked or not bricked...this is the question...."

Experiment done. Perfect.
I substitute the RS232 communication board blow whit a a magnetic isolator

ADUM1201 Dual Channel Digital Magnetic Isolator

Used for test this https://community.blynk.cc/t/problem-wi ... dded/31864

I tested is OK!!!!
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by metergeek »

weber wrote: Mon, 27 Apr 2020, 07:52
metergeek wrote: Sun, 26 Apr 2020, 21:52 Hey weber, a follow-up question to this, I have opposite occurrence where the load would increase and the fan speed does not increase to compensate and the inverter eventually throws a 02 fault code, meaning a temperature rise of 100 degrees, I removed the two fans and they do work at full throttle but I'm not sure why it does not increase during temperature rise.

any suggestions ??
What main firmware version are you running?


I can only guess there might be a fault in the circuitry that controls the fan speed. We don't have a schematic for that, but Coulomb made this schematic for the fan speed sensing circuitry, so at least you can ignore those components if you decide to trace the control circuit yourself.
Hey Weber, I'm not sure on the Firmware I'm running but I will get that when I put the inverter back together.
I've used the circuit you posted and traced all components in the fan control and they tested ok.
I, however, looked back at the service manual with regards to the fault code and here are my findings:-
1. All heat sink NTCs are 12k readings as against 15k that was mention in the manual
2. The NTC near the power transformer (Board Mounted) had a reading of 36K way higher than the anticipated 8-9k mention in the manual, this however responded to heat when applied. so I'm a little baffled about this one, I am awaiting a replacement 8k NTC to put place to see if this solves the problem.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by manio »

Hi again,
I am still investigating my inverter mainboard. Now I found one thing which I am not sure of...
I am checking INV full bridge IGBTs (according to the "Copy_of_PIP-HS_MS_4-5KVA_new_Service_manual_201506A.pdf") manual - it seems that IGBTs are the same as mine:
Image
I am not sure about its condition, I don't see any visual problems on those IGBTs but when I am measuring E-C and C-E on diode attribute then on QB2 and QD2 I've got 0.0V in both directions, while on QA1 and QC1 I have 0.38V also in both directions. All above measurements done in-circuit. Is that OK?
Here the elements from the bottom view:
Image
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by metergeek »

coulomb wrote: Mon, 27 Apr 2020, 08:05 It seems that the fan speed control output from the control board is on pin 40 (FAN SPEED/). That's ninth from one end (48 pins total, 3 groups of 16). Depending on where the control circuit (if any) is located, it might be easier to start from there. [ Edit: the problem could even be the digital buffer on the control card. ]
Hey Coulomb,
I've trace pin 40 and it leads to an IC labelled U18 but not much after that.
I've gotten a new firmware from the supplier and will try that out to see if that solves the issue... I will attach the firmware if anyone else needs it


Sorry I cannot attach it seems its too large (12MB)
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

manio wrote: Fri, 15 May 2020, 18:09 I am not sure about its condition, I don't see any visual problems on those IGBTs but when I am measuring E-C and C-E on diode attribute then on QB2 and QD2 I've got 0.0V in both directions,
That's definitely not OK. The two 2's (QB2 and QD2) form one half-bridge; they will be shorting the DC bus. Those IGBTs will need to be replaced.
while on QA1 and QC1 I have 0.38V also in both directions.
This is not normal, but it's to be expected since the DC bus is shorted by the other two IGBTs. Around 0.4 V is the expected voltage drop across high power diodes. Smaller "signal" silicon diodes measure more like 0.6 to 0.7 V in the forward direction. It's probably OK to leave those two in place; the other pair shorting will have protected these two. But of course you should check that these act like actual diodes (near open circuit in the reverse direction) when the faulty IGBTs are removed. You will have to make allowance for the bus capacitors to charge (slowly).
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by manio »

@coulomb
Thank you for your explanations :)

Please tell me what do you think about chinese MOSFETs and IGBT parts for my inverter, like:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-IRFB3206 ... 1338345646
and
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-IRGP4063D ... 1773338362

Is it worth to replace failed parts with the above or better keep away from it and buy the original Infineon parts from farnell?
I am asking because I am afraid, that it might blow again (basing on this thread experiences and my luck....) and it may hurt my wallet :|
on the other way if it would eventually work - I would regret that I don't have the originals.... no idea what to do... maybe the ebay clones are ok?
what you suggest?
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

manio wrote: Sat, 16 May 2020, 21:24 Please tell me what do you think about chinese MOSFETs and IGBT parts for my inverter...
Sorry, I've never bought power semiconductors from Ebay. I once bought an unusual IC for an EV charger that I could not find anywhere else, and it seemed to work OK.

Personally, I would buy from Farnell/Mouser/Digi-Key etc, whatever is convenient for your country. But you may not be in the same financial situation that I am.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

metergeek wrote: Fri, 15 May 2020, 18:56
coulomb wrote: Mon, 27 Apr 2020, 08:05 It seems that the fan speed control output from the control board is on pin 40 (FAN SPEED/).
I've trace pin 40 and it leads to an IC labelled U18 but not much after that.
Ah. You seem to have a Growatt inverter-charger, which bears remarkable similarities to an Axpert, but is far from a copy. I have no idea if the similarity extends to pin 40 being the FAN SPEED/ signal.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by paulvk »

An update on the Netion touch screen project to control inverter with
a 7 inch enhanced colour touch screen.
I have the wave component showing a graph of power , solar amps ,battery volts and battery amps.
The screens showing all the voltages , power and amps like watchpower screen working well.
Another showing buzzer alarm , solar power balance and so on working
Now have screen to change bulk volts , float volts and so on working with inverter accepting commands
and voltage changes from nextion.

Its taking a while due to me having to learn the Nextion language as I go.
When I become more proficient I will be able to use the new CRC function in the nextion
and can the program it so it works directly with the inverter without a micro in the middle
but the graph screen will be lost as nearly 3K of ram is needed to store the data
this is not possible with the nextion enhanced , however with the more expensive intelligent version
the SD card could be used to do this.
With the avr I have in the middle I will be programming it to store data on SD card in csv format
but past experience has shown the SD card lasts 18 months then begins to get problems so I
am looking at using a FRAM chip (type of eeprom with millions of write cycles) to store data on then transfer that data to SD card reducing the
writes to the card.

Have attached the nextion file by downloading the nextion editor you can use debug to see how it works
you can also use it to make your own screens.
Attachments
solar2.zip
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Roman khan »

Hi
I have axpert king 3.2kw inverter, it starts normal but upon 500watt load it shows fault code 52.i replace the bus side IGBTs with newones but shows the same fault.any body please how to solve this?
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

Roman khan wrote: Sat, 30 May 2020, 03:17 I have axpert king 3.2kw inverter, it starts normal but upon 500watt load it shows fault code 52.i replace the bus side IGBTs with new ones but shows the same fault.any body please how to solve this?
So fault code 52 is "bus voltage too low". I suggest the next step is to measure the bus voltage, and compare it with what is reported by commands such as QPIGS. [ Edit: there re large, clearly marked pads for BUS+ and BUS- near the bus capacitors; there is no need to measure under the main board, or to remove the main board at all. ]

If measuremed and reported values are significantly different, it indicates a failure of the measurement (so check the high value resistor strings, there may be one on the negative as well as the positive ends of the bus). If the bus voltage is just low (less than about 300 V), then something is dragging down the DC bus, though after the bus has been pre-charged (else, you'd get fault code 09). If this is the case, suspect the IGBTs at the bus end of the battery to bus DC-DC converter (4 of the IGBTs other than the inverter proper IGBTs). [ Edit: on re-reading your post, it looks like these are the ones you replaced; check and/or replace the inverter-proper IGBTs if so. ]

You should also check the gate drive components, in particular the gate series resistors (for the inverter proper, and the DC-DC converter).

[ Edit: reworded. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Roman khan »

coulomb wrote: Sat, 30 May 2020, 09:52
Roman khan wrote: Sat, 30 May 2020, 03:17 I have axpert king 3.2kw inverter, it starts normal but upon 500watt load it shows fault code 52.i replace the bus side IGBTs with new ones but shows the same fault.any body please how to solve this?
So fault code 52 is "bus voltage too low". I suggest the next step is to measure the bus voltage, and compare it with what is reported by commands such as QPIGS. [ Edit: there re large, clearly marked pads for BUS+ and BUS- near the bus capacitors; there is no need to measure under the main board, or to remove the main board at all. ]

If measuremed and reported values are significantly different, it indicates a failure of the measurement (so check the high value resistor strings, there may be one on the negative as well as the positive ends of the bus). If the bus voltage is just low (less than about 300 V), then something is dragging down the DC bus, though after the bus has been pre-charged (else, you'd get fault code 09). If this is the case, suspect the IGBTs at the bus end of the battery to bus DC-DC converter (4 of the IGBTs other than the inverter proper IGBTs). [ Edit: on re-reading your post, it looks like these are the ones you replaced; check and/or replace the inverter proper IGBTs if so. ]

You should also check the gate drive components, in particular the gate series resistors (for the inverter proper, and the DC-DC converter).

[ Edit: reworded. ]
Thank you sir i resolve the problem by replacing the battery side capacitors,35v 4700uf.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by manio »

Hi guys,
Please take a look at the below photo:
20200404_094442_resistors.jpg
20200404_094442_resistors.jpg (4.24 MiB) Viewed 1097 times
Am I correct that the left SMD resistor is 10R0 and the right one should be 2000 ?
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by weber »

The left one is 10 ohms, but the right one is only 200 ohms. The marking "2000" means 200 × 10⁰ ohms. I don't know why they don't mark them "200R" to avoid this confusion.

You can find the MOSFET driver schematic linked from the index post (first post) of this thread.
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Tejota
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About comm board bypass

Post by Tejota »

Is there any possibility to directly attack the UART of the control board without going through the communication board??

A few months ago @MacMajan did something with the Arduino One (USB to TTL) but with this type of converter there are isolation problems with the digital ground
.
I am referring to converters of the DT-06 or HC-08 type powering directly from the 5V of the control board. With these converters the isolation is total since it is wifi or bluetooth to TTL level.

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Even with tcpip-ttl converters like this and powered from the 5V's on the control board I think the digital ground isolation would be respected since the rj45 tcpip connector pins are never grounded.

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Any problems using these converters directly to the UART on the control board??

It would be very interesting to control inverters through tcp in a lan network.
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coulomb
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Re: About comm board bypass

Post by coulomb »

Tejota wrote: Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 22:11 Is there any possibility to directly attack the UART of the control board without going through the communication board??
...
I am referring to converters of the DT-06 or HC-08 type powering directly from the 5V of the control board. With these converters the isolation is total since it is wifi or bluetooth to TTL level.
That should be fine, though I wonder at the effects of tiny capacitances to earth on Radio Frequency receivers.
Even with tcpip-ttl converters like this and powered from the 5V's on the control board I think the digital ground isolation would be respected since the rj45 tcpip connector pins are never grounded.

Image

Any problems using these converters directly to the UART on the control board??
The "UART on the control board" is inside the DSP itself. [ Edit: Therefore, if you cause any problems, it's not going to be an easy chip to replace. ] I assume that CAT-5 cable is non-isolated from both the transmitter and the receiver, but I've never looked into that. Even if they are isolated by a tiny toroidal transformer, it's not clear to me that they can withstand hundreds of volts continuously, or that they will be immune to the presumably somewhat spiky voltages with respect to earth. So these I would not use or even experiment with.
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