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PIP-5048MK inverter

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MJS-1
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by MJS-1 »

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 14 Apr 2020, 08:15
@MJS-1: can you recall your original version too?
I am afraid I can't recall the original version for sure but my guess is it was 71.7x. I then did upgrade to 71.86 where I had the PV power issue. Before reporting this to the manufacturer I asked them for their latest firmware and received 71.80. This version had the PV power balance=0.
I never reset the unit to factory defaults after firmware uploads . Maybe that would have set the PV power balance to 1 then.
AXPERT KING 5K, U1=71.80, U2=02.00 U3=00.21 U4=01.10
2 x Pylontech US3000, 8 x JA 335W
Solpiplog 2.4.0 on Pi 4, emoncms local

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Gnome
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Gnome »

Can anyone post the newer firmware?

That way everyone can upgrade and we can possible get a patched one also

XtractorFan
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by XtractorFan »

Patched firmware is already available https://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.ph ... 125#p76178 courtesy of @weber
I have 71.86 and 71.90 is in new ones purchased recently.
But as MppSolar don't provide 'release notes' you may be playing Russian roulette :shock:

Mank1234
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Mank1234 »

In PYL mode, does one still experience premature float bug.

MJS-1
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by MJS-1 »

I haven't. Batteries work nicely with the inverter.
Voltages and currents are set as per Pylontech's recommendations.
AXPERT KING 5K, U1=71.80, U2=02.00 U3=00.21 U4=01.10
2 x Pylontech US3000, 8 x JA 335W
Solpiplog 2.4.0 on Pi 4, emoncms local

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coulomb
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

Mank1234 wrote:
Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 22:49
In PYL mode, does one still experience premature float bug.
The Pylontech recommendations (which I disagree with, but that's another story) are to set the float and bulk/absorb settings to the same voltage. If you follow that recommendation, the premature float bugs have no effect.

Edit: more to the point, when in true PYL mode, the BMS overrides the voltage settings, so again the premature float bugs don't have any effect.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

Mank1234
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Mank1234 »

coulomb wrote:
Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 08:31
Mank1234 wrote:
Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 22:49
In PYL mode, does one still experience premature float bug.
The Pylontech recommendations (which I disagree with, but that's another story) are to set the float and bulk/absorb settings to the same voltage. If you follow that recommendation, the premature float bugs have no effect.

Edit: more to the point, when in true PYL mode, the BMS overrides the voltage settings, so again the premature float bugs don't have any effect.
Thanks for this info.

Please explain what you disagree about the pylontech recommendations and why.

Thanks

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coulomb
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

Mank1234 wrote:
Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 08:52
Please explain what you disagree about the pylontech recommendations and why.
Firstly, the voltages are far too high for battery longevity. 53.2 V / 15 cells = 3.55 VPC, not much room from the absolute maximum of 3.6 VPC (some manufacturers use 3.65 VPC). For solar energy storage, there is simply no need for such high voltages; charging to 3.45 VPC (51.8 V for 15S) loses less than 1% capacity, but the higher cell voltage encourages bad reactions that reduce cell life.

Secondly, they recommend using the same voltage setting for float as for bulk/absorb. That means that after the battery is fully charged, the excessively high cell voltage remains for the rest of the day. Allowing the cell to relax to 3.36 VPC (50.3 V for 15S) again loses less than 1% of capacity, but keeps the cell voltage away from the area that encourages the bad reactions.

A typical solar charge controller, certainly the ones that come with PIP/Axpert inverter-chargers, typically overshoot (and undershoot) their target voltages, sometimes for up to a minute or more. With the recommended absorb voltage so close to the emergency disconnect voltage, it's possible for the BMS to disconnect from the inverter, which can lead to problems (I don't know exactly what these are or how severe they are, but I'd not want that to happen to my solar energy system).

If you are able to run with Battery Type = PYL (i.e. you have the appropriate firmware, and don't have paralleled / 3-phase machines), then there is a little more control (the BMS will throttle back the charge current when one cell starts getting over-full, for example). But my understanding is that it will instruct the inverter-charger to maintain those very high cell voltages, which are not good for battery life.

Of course, these are my opinions, based on reading papers pointed out by colleague Weber, and Pylontech are the manufacturers, who you'd think and hope would know their product fairly well.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

Mank1234
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Mank1234 »

Thanks great man. I fully understand the need now.

If one install the patched firmware, when you have a patched version of a higher firmware, can one do upgrade to the new patched firmware from the old one.

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coulomb
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

Mank1234 wrote:
Sat, 25 Apr 2020, 03:10
If one install the patched firmware, when you have a patched version of a higher firmware, can one do upgrade to the new patched firmware from the old one.
Yes. The part of the firmware that does the actual flash programming of the rest of the firmware is called the bootloader, and it never changes. The rest of the firmware is completely overwritten, so it doesn't matter what was there before (factory or patched, any version).

The only thing needed is that the old firmware can respond to the firmware update command. This command shuts everything down in an orderly fashion and jumps to the bootloader.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

vanzelstt
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by vanzelstt »

I know this is not quite on topic but does anyone know of a supplier in Brisbane / South East Queensland who has PIP-5048MK in stock?

Mank1234
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Mank1234 »

In battery mode, what's the power usage of this inverter say at a load of 1kw?
Can anyone using this confirm it. Someone in a Nigerian forum mentioned it to be same as idle consumption of
75W.

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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by affer »

did any1 change the fans to a more silent version? if so.. was it easy and did you take any pictures? thinking of changing to noctua. they are ready for next rain period. but until then.. please let me know of anything i should consider before doing this?

i can see 2x80mm fans in teh bottom, is that all inside the unit?

https://www.pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=66405&sid=59050

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coulomb
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

affer wrote:
Sun, 03 May 2020, 23:24
please let me know of anything i should consider before doing this?
You should consider Weber's experience, where he had to go back to original fans. Also follow the links in that post to where there is an easy way and a hard way to replace the fans. I found the hard way :(
I can see 2x80mm fans in the bottom, is that all inside the unit?
I've never seen inside a PIP-5048MK, but I'm 99% sure that there are no more fans. This Powerforum post has pictures of the insides.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Gnome »

XtractorFan wrote:
Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 18:18
71.90 is in new ones purchased recently.
Has anyone had luck getting this firmware update file for King?

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coulomb
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PV dips and freezes

Post by coulomb »

It's a year since this problem was first reported. It seems to affect many Voltronic Power models, particularly the PF1 models. However since it was first reported on this forum on an Axpert King / PIP-5048MK, I'll post my thoughts here.

First, two brief definitions:
  • A PV dip is when the PV current goes to zero, or a very low value like 1 A, for about 30-60 seconds, occasionally longer, such as half an hour. Afterwards, the PV charges normally, until the next dip. Dips seem to be less frequent in the middle of the day, but still happen then.
  • A PV freeze is when the PV current goes to zero, and stays there until either the start of the next day, or when the user does something to "reset" the solar charge controller, e.g. by changing a charge related setting. Freezes are more serious, but fortunately less common, and may not be related to dips. So for now, I'll ignore the freezes, and hope that when the dips are fixed, freezes will be fixed as well. If not, freezes can be examined separately.
My latest thought on this is that the inverter-charger is in the float stage before the dips, and changes to bulk stage after the dip. PIP/Axpert chargers are unusual in that to go from float stage to bulk stage, they first have to go through a zero-charge stage for 15-30 seconds, then when bulk charging starts, it charges at just one amp for some 15 seconds, and then slowly ramps up the charge current. Despite the slow ramp, it may overshoot the target charge current for ten or twenty seconds or so. The effect is that the dips typically last one to a few minutes.

There are two ways of the exiting float charge stage; both of these end up in the zero-charge stage. The first, and presumably most common, is that the battery voltage has to be measured at 4.0 V below the float voltage setting (setting 27) for ten seconds, no exceptions, testing 50 times per second (500 measurements total). This undocumented 4.0 V figure is way too large for LFP batteries, so LFP flavours of fully patched firmware changes this figure to 1.2 V (some older patched firmware used 1.0 V). Even in patched firmware where KettleKomp™ is implemented, for this and the following measurements in float mode, uncompensated battery voltage is used. It seems unlikely that this path from float stage to bulk stage is involved with the PV dips.

The other way to exit float mode, which I'd forgotten about, works as follows. Regardless of the above measurement, another measurement of battery voltage is made, and it is tested against the float voltage setting (setting 27), less 1.0 V (for 48 V models). So if the float setting is 54.0 V, the battery voltage is tested against 53.0 V. If the measured battery voltage is lower than but not equal to this value, a counter is incremented by one. If the measured battery voltage is higher than or equal to this value, the counter is decremented by two, never allowing the counter to go below zero. I think of this as a leaky bucket. Every time the battery voltage is lower than it should be, one drip goes into the bucket. But if the battery voltage is near where it should be, two drops come out of the bucket. If the counter ever reaches 90 000, then the charger exits float stage, goes to zero charge stage, and a dip occurs. I note that it would take 90 000 / 30 / 50 = 30 minutes to fill the bucket if nothing ever dripped out. So these dips should be a minimum of 30 minutes apart for this theory to be true.

I note that in the middle of the day, the battery is more likely to be fully charged, so there will probably be more leakage from the bucket, predicting fewer dips in the middle of the day (as has been observed).

For this theory to be true, the inverter's charger has to be in float mode to start with. Some cases are late in the day, when this is expected. But some are early in the day, requiring one of the premature float bugs to have put the charger into float stage too early. Dips have mainly been reported on PF1 models, which until recently don't have patched firmware.

Now to what users can do to prove or disprove my theory.
  • The charger needs to be in float mode before the dip. One way is to watch the middle (charge) LED; it should be on solid during the float stage. I would expect the LED to start flashing, indicating bulk or absorb/CV stage, at least for a short time. The other way is to check data logs that record the charge stage. The premature float bug should kick in soon after the end of the dip.
  • The dips should be at least 30 minutes apart, probably a fair bit more than that if the battery isn't yet fully charged, for the premature float bug to return the charger to float mode. This should be obvious from data logs.
  • You could watch the battery voltage, comparing it with one volt less than the float voltage, to see if the leaky bucket idea holds water, so to speak :) Keep in mind that the inverter is measuring much faster than you can see data logged, so there may be more sags of battery voltage when fridges start or the like, which you may not see often in the logs.
It's possible that there are more than one mechanism triggering these dips, so if occasional data contradicts the theory, it may not be dead in the water.

Observations welcome!

As for a fix for this problem, that's another story. But first, we need a good theory of what is going on.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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coulomb
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Re: PV dips and freezes

Post by coulomb »

My theory didn't last long; that's life. See this power forum post.

As I say there, I'm back to thinking that the high battery voltages recommended by many LFP battery manufacturers, in conjunction with these inverters' tendency to overshoot battery voltage targets, is the main cause.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PV dips and freezes

Post by Gnome »

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 07 May 2020, 11:50
  • A PV dip is when the PV current goes to zero, or a very low value like 1 A, for about 30-60 seconds, occasionally longer, such as half an hour. Afterwards, the PV charges normally, until the next dip. Dips seem to be less frequent in the middle of the day, but still happen then.
Is there any way to make it exit this funk as you suggest below using setting changes over RS232/USB?
coulomb wrote:
Thu, 07 May 2020, 11:50
[*]A PV freeze is when the PV current goes to zero, and stays there until either the start of the next day, or when the user does something to "reset" the solar charge controller, e.g. by changing a charge related setting. Freezes are more serious, but fortunately less common, and may not be related to dips. So for now, I'll ignore the freezes, and hope that when the dips are fixed, freezes will be fixed as well. If not, freezes can be examined separately.
[/list]
So this can actually be fixed by issuing commands over, say RS232 or USB to the inverter?
Simple example: Flip the value for a second by as little as possible and then back?

As things go, that seems easier to implement than changing the firmware?
coulomb wrote:
Thu, 07 May 2020, 11:50
My latest thought on this is that the inverter-charger is in the float stage before the dips, and changes to bulk stage after the dip. PIP/Axpert chargers are unusual in that to go from float stage to bulk stage, they first have to go through a zero-charge stage for 15-30 seconds, then when bulk charging starts, it charges at just one amp for some 15 seconds, and then slowly ramps up the charge current. Despite the slow ramp, it may overshoot the target charge current for ten or twenty seconds or so. The effect is that the dips typically last one to a few minutes.

There are two ways of the exiting float charge stage; both of these end up in the zero-charge stage. The first, and presumably most common, is that the battery voltage has to be measured at 4.0 V below the float voltage setting (setting 27) for ten seconds, no exceptions, testing 50 times per second (500 measurements total). This undocumented 4.0 V figure is way too large for LFP batteries, so LFP flavours of fully patched firmware changes this figure to 1.2 V (some older patched firmware used 1.0 V). Even in patched firmware where KettleKomp™ is implemented, for this and the following measurements in float mode, uncompensated battery voltage is used. It seems unlikely that this path from float stage to bulk stage is involved with the PV dips.

The other way to exit float mode, which I'd forgotten about, works as follows. Regardless of the above measurement, another measurement of battery voltage is made, and it is tested against the float voltage setting (setting 27), less 1.0 V (for 48 V models). So if the float setting is 54.0 V, the battery voltage is tested against 53.0 V. If the measured battery voltage is lower than but not equal to this value, a counter is incremented by one. If the measured battery voltage is higher than or equal to this value, the counter is decremented by two, never allowing the counter to go below zero. I think of this as a leaky bucket. Every time the battery voltage is lower than it should be, one drip goes into the bucket. But if the battery voltage is near where it should be, two drops come out of the bucket. If the counter ever reaches 90 000, then the charger exits float stage, goes to zero charge stage, and a dip occurs. I note that it would take 90 000 / 30 / 50 = 30 minutes to fill the bucket if nothing ever dripped out. So these dips should be a minimum of 30 minutes apart for this theory to be true.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if you had a way to measure the state of charge of the battery and the current battery voltage, you could use the standard RS232/USB commands to set the values in effect manipulating the inverter to simply charge the way you want it to?

I assume that is in essentially what Voltronic have aimed for with these BMS<->Inverter connection cables?

What I'm getting at is: Can you theoretically control each of the charging stages by issuing the right commands? Can I get it to float charge by issuing the right commands, then get it to bulk by issuing the right command, etc?

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Re: PV dips and freezes

Post by coulomb »

Gnome wrote:
Mon, 11 May 2020, 22:36
Is there any way to make it exit this funk as you suggest below using setting changes over RS232/USB?
Once the dip has started, I'd say there is no chance to exit it with a command. The SCC is resetting, and/or the controller is in zero charge state.
So this can actually be fixed by issuing commands over, say RS232 or USB to the inverter?
Simple example: Flip the value for a second by as little as possible and then back?
Yes, a freeze can be exited by changing charge related settings, either by buttons or command.

> As things go, that seems easier to implement than changing the firmware?
I guess that's a bit subjective.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if you had a way to measure the state of charge of the battery and the current battery voltage, you could use the standard RS232/USB commands to set the values in effect manipulating the inverter to simply charge the way you want it to?
Interesting idea. It won't be direct, as in send the float stage command and it's instantly in float. But I think it could be done.
I assume that is in essentially what Voltronic have aimed for with these BMS<->Inverter connection cables?
Not really. It was designed (it seems to me) for monitoring and settings changes.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PV dips and freezes

Post by Gnome »

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 12 May 2020, 09:29
I guess that's a bit subjective.
Don't get me wrong, I think firmware fixes are preferred :)

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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by affer »

i opened my unit today to see the fan connectors and how easy it was to remove them (the fans was pretty easy) ive ordered some cables for them now. the unit is pretty clean after 1. year of use.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by vanzelstt »

Just installed my 2 x PIP-5048MK in parallel. seem to be working great. They are running Firmware 71.90. Don't know if that means that the for-mentioned issues have been addressed? Can connect via bluetooth but not via serial?. using the same USB to serial as my old 4048. i get an ack when using Tera term so thinking that it might be Watchpower 1.13SP3?
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Mank1234
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Mank1234 »

vanzelstt wrote:
Sat, 16 May 2020, 18:01
Just installed my 2 x PIP-5048MK in parallel. seem to be working great. They are running Firmware 71.90. Don't know if that means that the for-mentioned issues have been addressed? Can connect via bluetooth but not via serial?. using the same USB to serial as my old 4048. i get an ack when using Tera term so thinking that it might be Watchpower 1.13SP3?
What's your battery specifications. Seems the issue has to do with bms and inverter interaction of certain models.

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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by MJS-1 »

vanzelstt wrote:
Sat, 16 May 2020, 18:01
Just installed my 2 x PIP-5048MK in parallel. seem to be working great. They are running Firmware 71.90. Don't know if that means that the for-mentioned issues have been addressed?
I have never seen release notes so it might be difficult to tell.

What versions are your U2, U3 and U4?
AXPERT KING 5K, U1=71.80, U2=02.00 U3=00.21 U4=01.10
2 x Pylontech US3000, 8 x JA 335W
Solpiplog 2.4.0 on Pi 4, emoncms local

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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by vanzelstt »

Im using 24 x 2v flooded lead acid batteries. Ops2-800

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