PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

rthorntn wrote: Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 04:51 So it's really four temps... battery heatsink, inverter heatsink, transformer temperature and SCC temperature?
Yes,
If the "inverter temperature" is the highest of the four, that suggests that this reading might jump around as different parts of the system are working harder than others?
It's possible for the highest temperature component to change, but temperatures don't tend to change quickly so I would not say that the reading would "jump around".
Perhaps if an inverter has stopped due to fault code 02, in a parallel configuration, the other inverter would keep going and if the stars aligned (the inverters are in the same small cabinet) the 2nd inverter will stop with fault code 02 while the 1st one is still stopped and I lose power for a tiny bit and the wifi lightbulbs come on.
That sounds plausible.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Thanks @coulomb!
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Hi,

Is anyone powering their entire house off these inverters, I'm trying to figure out if there are are "quirks", by "quirk" I mean something that would explain why I get a tiny power outage, of around a second, a couple of times a month.

Can a "quirk" in the power coming in from the grid confuse the inverters and make them freak out for a second? I mean this grid "quirk" is clearly unnoticeable when you get your power from the grid.

Thanks.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by curasun »

Hello all.
Please help me.
I've a Pip-5048GK working for 2 years wothou any problem.
Lately ive changed my battery bank and change some settings. The inverter would no take any new setting. I will the new setting for like 15 seconds, then return to the previous setting. This is either methodes, watchpower, bluethoot or screen. It will return yo previous settings.
This 1 of the earliest Pip-5048Gk, I think I'll have to reflash this inverter. So any of you have the latest firmware?
Please. Im afraid od reset to defual setting, because if I do it may not be able to put new setting. .
Please help.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

curasun wrote: Sun, 29 Nov 2020, 00:50 Lately ive changed my battery bank and change some settings. The inverter would no take any new setting.
Have you perhaps changed to a lithium battery with a built-in BMS? And with a special cable to the BMS?

If that's the case, the BMS takes over some settings, and it's normal for the settings to change on their own.

What is your battery type setting (setting 05)?
I'm afraid to reset to defualt settings, because if I do it may not be able to put new setting.
It might still be a good idea later. I've not heard of settings changing on their own without a BMS connected, and I don't believe that a firmware update will fix it if that's what is really happening.

Edit: what is your current main firmware version?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

I'm fairly sure that when my batteries trip and the inverters can't see a battery connected anymore that the inverters change the chemistry setting to default (AGM).

I've permanently dropped my maximum charge voltage to 55.0v just to be safe.

I still get these random, second long, power outages, they always seem to happen when people are home and awake, between 7am and 5pm, bloody weird, if I had to buy again I probably wouldn't have went with MPP to run an entire house. I'm at a loss to figure out what's causing it and even if I did I'm not sure MPP would fix it.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

rthorntn wrote: Sun, 29 Nov 2020, 06:08 I'm fairly sure that when my batteries trip and the inverters can't see a battery connected anymore that the inverters change the chemistry setting to default (AGM).
Huh. Good to know, thanks. I wonder if the processor and RAM lose power briefly, and the whole firmware restarts. But I would not expect that to cause settings to be lost (except for a few rare settings that don't get automatically saved to EEPROM, such as battery voltage calibration).
I've permanently dropped my maximum charge voltage to 55.0v just to be safe.
I wonder it it's still happening, causing your second-long blackouts. Though I would have thought that a restart would take more like 10 seconds before the inverter starts again.

It seems more like a restart after a fault, but presumably you're not seeing fault codes. I think I recall you've been using fault recording too.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Thanks, the whole inverter temperature "issue" might have been a red herring.
coulomb wrote: Sun, 29 Nov 2020, 06:59 except for a few rare settings that don't get automatically saved to EEPROM
Honestly I think its just the chemistry that reverts and the default voltages for AGM kick in and they cause havok when my batteries hit full charge, I've seen this quite a few times. I think setting 55.0v might have fixed this, fingers crossed, the tripping battery issue doesn't seem to be the same issue as the blackouts (although maybe in some cases the blackout causes an AGM revert).
coulomb wrote: Sun, 29 Nov 2020, 06:59 I wonder it it's still happening, causing your second-long blackouts. Though I would have thought that a restart would take more like 10 seconds before the inverter starts again. It seems more like a restart after a fault, but presumably you're not seeing fault codes. I think I recall you've been using fault recording too.
I'm starting to think the inverter doesn't see a fault at all and I don't think there are inverter restarts, these mini blackouts are nowhere near 10 seconds. Of course the parallel setup could impact all of this.

That's why I'm starting to think that the inverter sees some kind of occasional grid "quirk" or some kind of solar/battery/grid/load "perfect storm" that causes the inverter to crap itself momentarily. Attached some graphs, the outage was at the 08:14:40 mark.
inverter_v.jpg
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inverter_freq.jpg (83.87 KiB) Viewed 484 times
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

If only there was some kind of monitoring device I could plug in to help me diagnose it.

The whole house runs off the inverters so in the blackout the file server loses power, the wifi lightbulbs come on and the oven clock loses the time. I put the NBN modem on a UPS which helps with that. I think what I'm trying to say here is if your not running things like this off the inverter you might not even notice it happening.

I think we are always running off battery when it happens. So the batteries could be playing more of a part in all of this.

I haven't had a blackout in 12 days and yesterday was 40C and today is going to be the same.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
rthorntn wrote: Sun, 29 Nov 2020, 08:21 If only there was some kind of monitoring device I could plug in to help me diagnose it.

The whole house runs off the inverters so in the blackout the file server loses power, the wifi lightbulbs come on and the oven clock loses the time. I put the NBN modem on a UPS which helps with that. I think what I'm trying to say here is if your not running things like this off the inverter you might not even notice it happening.

I think we are always running off battery when it happens. So the batteries could be playing more of a part in all of this.

I haven't had a blackout in 12 days and yesterday was 40C and today is going to be the same.
Have you thought about splitting the house circuits? Run the 2 MGs separately? Probably not cheap to do though.

I know it would be great if it was working perfectly in parallel mode, but seeing it isn't, it could be worth trying. It may isolate the problem to one of the inverters.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Thanks @dRdoS7, tbh, if I was going to all that trouble, I would probably use the money to replace the MPP's with something better, even if I ended up with the same issue the new inverters would have to have some verbose logging built in.

My solar installer sold me a Latronics Automatic AC Transfer Switch (ACTS40) that he will put in, it's a hack but maybe it's the best way to solve this.

With the benefit of hindsight I probably should have spent more than 20% of the system cost on the inverters.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by bladecar »

rthorntn said: "Is anyone powering their entire house off these inverters, I'm trying to figure out if there are are "quirks", by "quirk" I mean something that would explain why I get a tiny power outage, of around a second, a couple of times a month."

No.

I have a standard inverter (probably 6 years now) but no batteries. My inverter goes offline occasionally.
I've read how supposedly the nasty solar panels make it hard for the power people to keep the standard grid voltage within normal limits such that changes in solar panel input causes the voltage to go over the usual upper limit. So anyway, without further evidence, I've decided that a likely culprit for my inverter shutting down (and me having to reset it) when I least expect it (which is always) is due to a high grid voltage.

Just a thought.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
rthorntn wrote: Sun, 29 Nov 2020, 17:23 Thanks @dRdoS7, tbh, if I was going to all that trouble, I would probably use the money to replace the MPP's with something better, even if I ended up with the same issue the new inverters would have to have some verbose logging built in.
Probably won't have that problem.

I had my switchboard divided in 3, 3 circuits on each, and with a manual transfer switch for each group. So it won't cost too much if I get a second inverter. If I did, I think one of these would do nicely:

https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters ... mart-solar

Can't run them in parallel, also they are only 5300W, but you can run a grid-tie inverter on the output.
My solar installer sold me a Latronics Automatic AC Transfer Switch (ACTS40) that he will put in, it's a hack but maybe it's the best way to solve this.
I bought a Latronics ATS too, at least it will provide a good bypass. As you say: "It's a hack", and shouldn't have been necessary. Hasn't been installed yet. The existing bypass relay is still working, so I'll wait until it fails. As they (Murphy?) say: "Hard work pays off in the long run, but laziness pays off now".

I encountered a problem first day I installed the MG. I switched off the battery isolator, to see what happens. Well, it takes a while for the inverter to switch to by-pass. Only a few seconds, but PCs, etc. didn't like it. My first MPP had a real internal bypass. So that's how I ended up putting in my own bypass. Turns out there was another "feature" that also needed it. Had any #08 errors?
With the benefit of hindsight I probably should have spent more than 20% of the system cost on the inverters.
:lol:

Who knew. Though it sounds like no others are having your problem. Natually. So you wouldn't expect any.

Did you try running off one inverter?

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Thanks @bladecar & @dRdoS7!

I have seen the switchover to bypass on battery disconnection taking way too long.

(Touch wood) I've never had an error 08.

The problem with shutting down an inverter to test just one is I potentially would have to do it for a few weeks, to allow time for the issue to rear it's head, my entire house can't run off just one and I would also waste 50% of my solar capacity.

Who knows, maybe it could be worse, the ACTS40 should help smooth things out.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rinaldoparaipan »

[ Moderator note: moved from the general 5048MS topic to this one. ]

Hello everyone!
I have a problem with a PIP 5048GK which is working with a diesel generator with ATS and automatic start.
I used the dry contact in order to start and to stop the generator. It works OK, but after the first cycle run-stop(the gen start when the battery drop below voltage set in menu 12 and stops when the battery reach the voltage set in menu 13) at the second start, the inverter refuses to charge and to make bypass as well.
The icon with AC input is on the display, but not charging.
Yesterday I installed the gen it works only once.
Today the same behavior-it works only one cycle.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

rinaldoparaipan wrote: Sun, 06 Dec 2020, 02:06 Yesterday I installed the gen it works only once.
Today the same behavior-it works only one cycle.
Interesting. I wonder if it's going to be consistent, or if it's merely intermittent.

If consistent, this could provide a clue that could possibly help others with generator issues. At present, I can't think of a connection.

@Rinaldoparaipan, what main firmware are you running? There is a very small chance I could spot a bug in the firmware and patch it.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rinaldoparaipan »

Thanks Coulomb.
My client is not at the site-he will be back on Monday.
So i don"t know the firmware version.
Another two strange thinks:
-Before using dry contact, the inverter start charging from gen without any problem.Now, when the generator starts and by-pass is on, there is some relay(s) clicking inside.Is not the dry contact.Until the battery charging starts.Then , no clicking.
-If I connect the inverter AC input to the grid-in fact a very bad grid with 180V and 48Hz instead of 230V and 50Hz- the inverter is working OK-with by-pass and bat charging.
.....
I installed more 100 Effekta inverters during the past 4 years, but such a stupid problem I never saw.
N.B. The MPP Solar was bought by the client, he asked me for the ATS connection and installation.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by Motorsheep »

Hi everyone,
I'm new here, so I hope this is more or less the right topic to post in, even though I'm using a 24V Axpert VMIII.

So I'm seeing a couple of issues with mine (used off-grid only).

1) the infamous float bug, for which, if I'm not mistaken, there is no fix for my model.

2) total PV input power (press down arrow 4 times) is being displayed as lower than battery charging power (press down arrow 6 times) when there is no load. Right now I'm seeing 290W of PV power and 380W of charging power. Again, it's an off-grid system and the generator is off, so there's no possible source for those additional 90W.

3) according to the display, total energy generated this month exceeds total load output by about the entire battery capacity. I'm seeing 10.2kWh generated and 4.7kWh total output. My battery is a 200Ah 8-cell LiFePo4, so around 5.5kWh. This would make sense if I had gone in with a completely empty battery, but it arrived at 26.2V, which afaik would be around 50%. Shouldn't the values, in the long run, be the same, minus losses during charging? If we subtract the 2.75kWh required for the initical charge of my half-empty battery, I'd still be seeing some 3kWh of losses. I can't imagine the MPPT charger in the Axpert is THIS inefficient.

Any ideas?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by paulvk »

In my 48v PIPs up to 1.2kw hours each day can be used by the inverter itself so you need to include that in your calculations.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by Motorsheep »

Thank you, but Jesus Christ that's a lot of wasted energy. If I look at the lifetime total for my Axpert (which then includes a week or so from November) and subtract the initial charge, I'm seeing about 50% efficiency. For your 1.2kWh, what kind of total output are you seeing?

Right, so that would be settled, then. I still wonder about the charging rate in Watts being displayed as higher than the PV input power though. Perhaps they mixed up the two values?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

@coulomb with my intermittent power loss problem, as suggested here, I'm going to do an AB comparison of the internal temps and look for temps that are different between the inverters, is there an area in the inverter that can be troublesome and may cause this kind of thing that I can pay particular attention to?

If I start with the hypothesis that the heat buildup damaged something inside one inverter (if that even makes sense), is there anything to check specifically?

Thanks!
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

rthorntn wrote: Tue, 22 Dec 2020, 13:09 is there an area in the inverter that can be troublesome and may cause this kind of thing that I can pay particular attention to?
Well, the three things that the manufacturer put heat sensors might be a good place to start:
* Heatksink for the low voltage end of the DC-DC converter (the 16 MOSFETs)
* Heatsink for the inverter proper (the DC-AC converter, 4 IGBTs), high voltage end of the DC-DC converter (4 more IGBTs), and the buck converter (one IGBT and a diode). If suspicious of this area (higher difference with the other inverter), it might be worth determining which end gets hottest (the DC-AC end or the DC-DC end)
* The high frequency transformer.

On other models, there is another heat sensor on the solar charge controller. But on models like yours, the solar charge controller is a boost converter, and I suspect it lives on the same heatsink as the IGBTs. It has its own inductor, tucked into a corner with its own small PCB on top. This inductor may be failing with temperature, or it may be sending heat to other parts of the circuit.

Knowing that the heat had trapped in these two inverters for some time, it's possible that some of the capacitors have suffered reduced lifespan. I'd consider replacing the bus capacitors and the 4 capacitors protecting the low voltage side of the DC-DC converter (i.e. protecting the 16 MOSFETs). Though usually if these fail, the MOSFETs short out with a loud bang. I wonder if some capacitors in the power supply might have failed or be near the end of their useful life. It would be worth searching for electrolytic capacitors with distorted cans, like these three:

Image

There must be a dozens of electrolytic capacitors, some quite small, that could cause problems. But I'd suspect the main power supply for your symptoms.
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5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Thanks heaps @coulomb!
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by gazzaman2k »

rthorntn wrote: Sat, 28 Nov 2020, 16:01 Hi,

Is anyone powering their entire house off these inverters, I'm trying to figure out if there are are "quirks", by "quirk" I mean something that would explain why I get a tiny power outage, of around a second, a couple of times a month.

Can a "quirk" in the power coming in from the grid confuse the inverters and make them freak out for a second? I mean this grid "quirk" is clearly unnoticeable when you get your power from the grid.

Thanks.
Rich
i have 2 x 5048mg v71.80a software ive had this 1 second black out 3 times in about 8 months of owning these, my smart home bulbs light up and the oven clock resets which gives me the indication of what time the inverters dropped power.

its completely random, had it happen at 4am, 5pm and 2pm
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

gazzaman2k wrote: Thu, 24 Dec 2020, 06:41
i have 2 x 5048mg v71.80a software ive had this 1 second black out 3 times in about 8 months of owning these, my smart home bulbs light up and the oven clock resets which gives me the indication of what time the inverters dropped power.

its completely random, had it happen at 4am, 5pm and 2pm
There is another!

If this happens at 4am, I'm done for, it will wake the whole family up, we have 3 smart lights in the main bedroom!

I have had five outages in the last 6 weeks, the latest one was for more like 10 seconds.

Did you put any thought into trying to figure out the cause?

I'm definitely installing a Latronics AC Transfer Switch (ACTS40 modded for 60A), already bought and paid for it but I would love to figure out what causes this...

Thinking out loud, I wonder if it's some kind of silent watchdog doovalacky issue maybe with the paralleling code crapping itself...
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