PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by data »

I bought mine in june 2019 and it came with firmware 41.07 as far as I remember.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Hi,

Seven of my batteries tripped yesterday, I'm pretty sure the culprit is the 5048MG setting the battery type to AGM on a power cycle, AGM has a cutoff of 56.2V which is too high for my batteries and the BMS kicks in. Has anyone seen this buggy battery type behaviour?

I mean it could be ICC doing it but I doubt it.

Thanks.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by ojeysky »

Anyone exceeding PV array for GK?

I currently have a string of 9x280w (340v) connected to my 3024GK and I want to add a new string of 7x380w(350v) in parallel. This will push my total PV power beyond 4kw. How does MPP GK react when the max PV limit is reached?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by ojeysky »

esorven wrote: Thu, 01 Oct 2020, 04:31 Hello,
PLease, can i have help or clues with the problems (bad settings ?) i have with my solar installation (newbie, first post here, shy...), composed of :

Off site, PIP 5048 gk (mpp solar, cpu 20.58), 1*6 panels 280W (voc 36.6*6=220V > 150v, noct), 4 flooded batteries 110ah(8 months old).

Settings:1-SBU, 2-20A 5-Flooded 16-Only Solar, no equalization made and everything else default.

Problems: Sometimes Low battery in the morning (fault code 4, inverter shutdown), batteries not charging when grey sky (stuck at 120v, not charging),

Thank you.
I use the 3024GK and I can confirm that I wasn't hervesting much when I use 6x270w panels, until I pushed to 8 panel and then 9 PV of 280w in a string. Since you are using the 5kva version you should increase your PV array size to get your total voltage to at least 300v
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

ojeysky wrote: Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 04:53 I currently have a string of 9x280w (340v) connected to my 3024GK and I want to add a new string of 7x380w(350v) in parallel. This will push my total PV power beyond 4kw. How does MPP GK react when the max PV limit is reached?
If the combined panel current regularly exceeds 18A, then these high voltage SCCs can burn:

https://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=80051#p80051

But I calculated about 16A Isc for those two strings, so it should be ok. I don't recommend going over 20% more than rated power, which is 4800W. So you should be ok on total power as well.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by ojeysky »

coulomb wrote: Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 06:49
ojeysky wrote: Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 04:53 I currently have a string of 9x280w (340v) connected to my 3024GK and I want to add a new string of 7x380w(350v) in parallel. This will push my total PV power beyond 4kw. How does MPP GK react when the max PV limit is reached?
If the combined panel current regularly exceeds 18A, then these high voltage SCCs can burn:

https://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=80051#p80051

But I calculated about 16A Isc for those two strings, so it should be ok. I don't recommend going over 20% more than rated power, which is 4800W. So you should be ok on total power as well.
Thanks for this @coulomb actually the 280w is rated 9A and I see 10A occasionally on it while the 380w is rated 10A which means I may consistently exceed the 18A limit. Also since it's a 3kva GK version which has a max of 4000w but my planned additional string will make my total array to exceed 5kw. I guess this means I need to rethink my plan right? Or will it be fine without blowing up my system?

Edit: I have seen in this post that @coulomb advices against putting 5.2kw PV on a 4kw rated array. I wish I could use my current GK though maybe I will just reduce the string to 8x280w and 6x380w until a time when I could get an external CC
Last edited by ojeysky on Wed, 28 Oct 2020, 12:18, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

ojeysky wrote: Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 15:00 actually the 280w is rated 9A and I see 10A occasionally on it while the 380w is rated 10A which means I may consistently exceed the 18A limit.
Ah. The voltages you quoted must have been Voc.
Also since it's a 3kva GK version which has a max of 4000w but my planned additional string will make my total array to exceed 5kw. I guess this means I need to rethink my plan right?
I assume 5 kVA unless otherwise stated. Yes, I think a new plan is in order.

You will likely have to add an external MPPT that connects directly to the 24 V battery. I doubt that these will come in high voltage versions (and if they did, they would likely not be very efficient), so you'll probably have to parallel strings of panels. As you probably know, PIP-GKs can't be paralleled.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by ojeysky »

coulomb wrote: Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 16:45
ojeysky wrote: Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 15:00 actually the 280w is rated 9A and I see 10A occasionally on it while the 380w is rated 10A which means I may consistently exceed the 18A limit.
Ah. The voltages you quoted must have been Voc.
Also since it's a 3kva GK version which has a max of 4000w but my planned additional string will make my total array to exceed 5kw. I guess this means I need to rethink my plan right?
I assume 5 kVA unless otherwise stated. Yes, I think a new plan is in order.

You will likely have to add an external MPPT that connects directly to the 24 V battery. I doubt that these will come in high voltage versions (and if they did, they would likely not be very efficient), so you'll probably have to parallel strings of panels. As you probably know, PIP-GKs can't be paralleled.
Yeah it was the Voc. The Voc of the 280w is 37v while that of the 380w is 48v.. Thanks

Just curious @coulomb I have checked and Voc of 7x380w PV is what matches the current string Voc that I want to parallel the new string with. Will it to be too much oversizing if I use a 5.2kw PV on MPP GK 3024 that has max PV of 4kw? Will that excess cause a damage or will it just discard the rest when the hervest hits 4kw?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by data »

@coulomb
Do you have any details about the Pip-5048MGX?
Due to the lack of the 'ECO' mode, I am thinking about replacing my existing 5048GK with the 5048MGX.
My only issue with the GK is, that it drains the batteries, even when in utility-mode.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by ojeysky »

data wrote: Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 15:58 @coulomb
Do you have any details about the Pip-5048MGX?
Due to the lack of the 'ECO' mode, I am thinking about replacing my existing 5048GK with the 5048MGX.
My only issue with the GK is, that it drains the batteries, even when in utility-mode.
Yeah it consumes about 50w even when in utility mode, I find that behaviour to be quite strange as well
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

data wrote: Tue, 27 Oct 2020, 15:58 @coulomb
Do you have any details about the Pip-5048MGX?
Sorry, I have no details. There are a few new models recently (including a 7.2 kW model, the PIP MAX / Axpert MAX) that aren't well documented.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by data »

Can someone here who has the 5048MGX please confirm that it has the ECO mode and does not drain batteries when in utility/bypass mode?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Has anyone had issues with these inverters reverting to AGM, it's happened to mine 3-4 times in as many months.

I have LTO and set to User with a max voltage of 55.5v, when it reverts to AGM the max voltage goes to 56.4v and it trips my batteries on a sunny day.

Very bloody annoying.
Last edited by rthorntn on Sun, 08 Nov 2020, 11:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
rthorntn wrote: Sat, 07 Nov 2020, 16:55 Has anyone had issues with these inverters reverting to AGM, it's happened to mine 3-4 times in as many months.

I have LTO and set to User with a max voltage of 55.5v, when it reverts to AGM the max voltage goes to 56.2v and it trips my batteries on a sunny day.

Very bloody annoying.
Long shot, but have tried running each one in turn, for a short time, see if one is causing it to revert?

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Thanks @dRdoS7 that has been niggling at the back of my mind, that the parallel master flips (maybe after one of the inverters reboots) and somehow that causes it.

Or, the MPP decides through some decision making process (measurement out of bounds or something) that the battery type needs to be reverted.

I mean there is also a slight chance it could be ICC.

It's so intermittent and the data that you get from an MPP inverter is so poor (logs?), add to this that my entire house runs off them, it's just a really a bad situation.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

rthorntn wrote: Sun, 08 Nov 2020, 08:51 that has been niggling at the back of my mind, that the parallel master flips (maybe after one of the inverters reboots) and somehow that causes it.
That actually could well be the problem. PBT (the command to set battery type) is not one of the ones that automatically sends a CAN packet whenever you change the setting, so that the other inverters also update their settings.

So you might have one machine that is 99% of the time the master, and it's set to USE type. But the other inverter, that is 99% of the time the slave, might have the setting set to AGM. That 1% of the time when it's the master may be the time that the AGM setting takes effect.

If so, perhaps go to the 99% slave machine and change its Battery Type setting (setting 05) to USE, if it's not already on that setting. Use the front panel buttons and LC Display, rather than ICC, since ICC won't be able to change the setting on any inverter that it's not plugged in to.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Thanks @coulomb

Went out and checked the LCDs, both set to USER and the voltages are correct.

(Looking at the manual) it can't be a coincidence that the defaults are what it's failing to:

05 - AGM
26 - 56.4v
27 - 54.0v
29 - 52.0v

When it freaks out the above settings are set, even though these are the settings that both inverters are showing now:

05 - USE
26 - 55.5v
27 - 55.5v
29 - 52.5v

Here's a new brainwave, my issues have all started as the weather is starting to pick up, looking at my battery charge curve, maybe 55.0v for 26 & 27 is better. Maybe 55.5v is cutting it too fine, it's pretty much 100% SoC at 55.0v and a near vertical line from there. Maybe the 05, 26, 27 & 29 resetting happens when the batteries all trip, I had a battery cutout yesterday, all 8 tripped, on warmer days maybe I'm getting battery cutouts at 55.5v and a symptom of all the batteries being disconnected from the inverters is that they default to AGM?

A BMS is really temp based right, so maybe when there is a kind of perfect storm, the inverters reporting 55.5v is actually not good:

This is what I was given for the conditions that can cause the circuit breaker on the Zenaji's to trip:

1 Over current 41 amps with most inverters
2 Over Temperature 65 degrees
3 Under Temperature - 40 degrees C
4 Over Voltage 57.5 V
5 Under Voltage 41.5 V

I have set 26 and 27 to 55.0v on ICC (ICC is connected by USB to one of the inverters), according to the inverter front panels both inverters have setting 26 and 27 at 55.0v so ICC must be doing something funky there?

Also a bonus question setting 06 & 07, auto restart when overload occurs & auto restart when over temperature occurs, I have temperature restart enabled, I have sorted the airflow issues now so I'm thinking of disabling that, according to the manual, restart disabled is the default?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Any idea what program 25 with description "Record Fault code" and options "Record enable" / "Record disable" (default) actually does, I have it enabled, I've momentarily lost power twice in 24 hours, the panel shows nothing obvious, no fault LED, the top centre area of the LCD that looks like it should have a fault code just shows HS or SL on my paralleled units, could that be a "feature", paralleling mode means you don't get error codes kind of thing?

I'm really stuck now, (my last ditch attempt) I have just disabled 07 - "Auto restart when over temperature occurs" fingers crossed.

Is there any way to tell the uptime on these things, I have no idea if they're actually rebooting or not?

With issues the inverters give me no idea of anything really, I've never been gifted enough to be standing beside the inverter when the power has gone out, it's a bloody nightmare. Any pointers or advice?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

rthorntn wrote: Thu, 12 Nov 2020, 05:51 Any idea what program 25 with description "Record Fault code" and options "Record enable" / "Record disable" (default) actually does...
When enabled, the inverter records some information about the last (and only the last) fault; it can be accessed by the QFS and QFAULT commands. Watchpower has a page on it.

See this post in the PIP-5048MS topic for more details.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

coulomb wrote: Thu, 12 Nov 2020, 07:02
rthorntn wrote: Thu, 12 Nov 2020, 05:51 Any idea what program 25 with description "Record Fault code" and options "Record enable" / "Record disable" (default) actually does...
When enabled, the inverter records some information about the last (and only the last) fault; it can be accessed by the QFS and QFAULT commands. Watchpower has a page on it.

See this post in the PIP-5048MS topic for more details.
THANK YOU!!!
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Does anyone know what temperature triggers program 07's to auto restart when over temperature occurs and if it has to be that temperature for a specific duration?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

rthorntn wrote: Thu, 12 Nov 2020, 09:59 Does anyone know what temperature triggers program 07's to auto restart when over temperature occurs and if it has to be that temperature for a specific duration?
You didn't say what firmware you are using, so I used 73.00 as it happens to be my best commented firmware at the moment.

For the three temperature alarm sources (battery heatsink, inverter heatsink, transformer temperature), the trigger points are as follows:
a) If the fan is locked, then the alarm comes on at 80°C and off at 50°C;
b) Otherwise (the usual case), the alarm comes on at 95°C and off at 65°C.

For each of these, the temperature has to exceed or subceed the limit for 5 tests in a row; each test is taken 20 ms apart. So at least 100 ms delay (0.1 seconds). This is so short compared to the time constant of the thermal systems that you may as well call it instantaneous.

Setting 07 (auto restart when over temperature occurs) uses this same temperature alarm logic, i.e. the heatsinks all have to be under 65°C. In addition, the over-temperature warning has to be off, for the restart to happen.

The warning happens at the average of the on and off temperatures plus 10°C, so if the fan is not locked, that's (95+65)/2 + 10 = 90°C. The warning comes off at the same temperature as the error, so 65°C when the fan isn't locked. The time constant is the same for the warning; the limits have to be broken 5 times in a row.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

Thanks @coulomb

I'm 71.80, could 73.00 help me in any way.

Three... battery heatsink, inverter heatsink, transformer temperature, how does that relate to the single "inverter temperature" value?

Is there any way to view the three temps?

Could I have an inverter temperature of 65C and the other sensors reading much higher?

What do you mean by if the fan is "locked"?

I'm trying to figure out how likely it is to have the inverter restart when the inverter temperature is reading around 60-65C?

Thanks.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

rthorntn wrote: Thu, 12 Nov 2020, 19:07 I'm 71.80, could 73.00 help me in any way.
It depends which 71.80. If as is more likely it's the one for PIP-5048MG / Axpert MKS II, then no, 73.00 is incompatible with your hardware.
Three... battery heatsink, inverter heatsink, transformer temperature, how does that relate to the single "inverter temperature" value?
The "inverter temperature" is the highest of these three (and also the SCC temperature, if the SCC is active).
Is there any way to view the three temps?
Yes and no. On the PIP-4048 and related models, there was the Q1 command (documented by yours truly here). But it is not implemented in later firmwares, probably including your 71.80.
Could I have an inverter temperature of 65C and the other sensors reading much higher?
Yes. Then the "inverter temperature" would be the highest of the other values.
What do you mean by if the fan is "locked"?
Warning 01 comes on when the firmware doesn't detect feedback from the fans indicating that they are spinning. It treats this seriously, though it does not result in a fault code that stops operation. If it deems that the fans are not running normally, it assumes that the real heatsink temperatures are higher than the readings from the sensors, and lowers the temperature limits as a precaution.
I'm trying to figure out how likely it is to have the inverter restart when the inverter temperature is reading around 60-65C?
If the inverter has stopped due to fault code 02 ("over temperature"), then it's very likely that when the temperature reading falls below 65°C and setting 07 is on (restarts due to temperature are enabled), that the inverter will recommence normal operation. That's what is meant by restart; it doesn't actually start the code from scratch. If setting 07 is off, an over-temperature situation is considered fatal, and the inverter won't recover until you switch the power off.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by rthorntn »

As always, many thanks @coulomb

So it's really four temps... battery heatsink, inverter heatsink, transformer temperature and SCC temperature?

If the "inverter temperature" is the highest of the four, that suggests that this reading might jump around as different parts of the system are working harder than others?

Perhaps if an inverter has stopped due to fault code 02, in a parallel configuration, the other inverter would keep going and if the stars aligned (the inverters are in the same small cabinet) the 2nd inverter will stop with fault code 02 while the 1st one is still stopped and I lose power for a tiny bit and the wifi lightbulbs come on. I put the NBN modem on a UPS because that doesn't restart gracefully.

I really regret putting two inverters in the same small enclosure, I also think it's daft that these things are not outdoor rated.

Or all this is nothing to do with temperature and there is another issue causing all this.
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