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PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

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dRdoS7
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,

If the MG doesn't have "double conversion", and "generates slightly higher AC voltage to inject AC power", how does it manage getting the voltage down to the 240V setpoint?

My MG regularly has 244V (night) to 248V (day) input, but only outputs ~ 240V (except when the battery bank get low). Those are reading from the LCD, never actually tested with a meter.

I'll add that since I turned on Utility Charging (set a 10A), I haven't had an "08" fault. Probably will tonight. Last was mid February. It's been running in Line mode a lot lately, still waiting for replacement NiFe cells. :roll: Almost ready to go Li.

What I have been getting a lot of is swap to bypass mode for 10 minutes. No error or fault message. Seems mainly when bank is low. Sometimes I see the voltage had dropped to < 240V in the data log. I had it set at 44V for change to Utility. Yesterday I set it at 46V, at least until I get some more good cells. It has also happened when the bank isn't low, occasionally.

Thanks,

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by DanielArdelian »

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 05 May 2020, 08:31
That makes them "even more illegal" for use in Australia and I assume most other countries
Thanks, that was my main concern: the "legal" aspect. I'm not allowed to have any grid injection and I don't want to get in trouble.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by weber »

DanielArdelian wrote:
Tue, 05 May 2020, 15:10
coulomb wrote:
Tue, 05 May 2020, 08:31
That makes them "even more illegal" for use in Australia and I assume most other countries
Thanks, that was my main concern: the "legal" aspect. I'm not allowed to have any grid injection and I don't want to get in trouble.
I suspect Coulomb may be mistaken here. :o    I can't find any evidence that any of the PIPs/Axperts do any kind of grid injection/grid interactivity/grid feed. I suspect that the PIP-5048GK does double conversion (like the PIP-5048MK). And I can't find any evidence that the PIP-5048MG or PIP-5048GE can power the loads with a combination of solar and utility at all. And so they don't need to have double conversion or grid interactivity.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by DanielArdelian »

Well, the icons from the user manuals do seem to indicate
  • "grid-interactive" for GK
    double-conversion for MK
But how much can we trust these to be accurate depictions of what happens under the hood?
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GK-MK-2.jpg
GK-MK-2.jpg (420.86 KiB) Viewed 390 times

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by weber »

OK. Well that is some evidence that the GK does undeclared grid interactivity. Enough not to take the risk, but not enough to find them guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Is there someone out there with a PIP-GK or an Axpert VM III who can tell us whether the output voltage is 230 V, or is the same as the grid voltage, when in that mode, as indicated in the manual, above left, where the load is supplied from both solar and utility at the same time?

Or maybe Coulomb can point us to a post, maybe on the South African forum, where someone has already done that.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

dRdoS7 wrote:
Tue, 05 May 2020, 12:04
If the MG doesn't have "double conversion", and "generates slightly higher AC voltage to inject AC power", how does it manage getting the voltage down to the 240V setpoint?
It's my understanding that when the output is supplied by the inverter only (so nice round 220/230/240 V output, not the same as the AC-in voltage), then this blending isn't happening. Are you saying that you observe blending of AC-in and PV power when the output voltage is different from the AC-in voltage? If so, that would indeed be evidence that models other than the PIP-5048MK (Axpert King) have double conversion. But since the MK/King is the only model that claims zero transfer time, I'm sceptical.

In battery mode, where the AC-in isn't connected to anything, then there is obviously no surprise that it can output a clean 240 V (or 230 V or 220 V) output.
My MG regularly has 244V (night) to 248V (day) input, but only outputs ~ 240V (except when the battery bank get low). Those are reading from the LCD, never actually tested with a meter.
That's consistent with battery mode. Except when your battery gets low; then the AC-in connects to AC-out to provide, or possibly just support, the load.
What I have been getting a lot of is swap to bypass mode for 10 minutes. No error or fault message. Seems mainly when bank is low.
I used to get that a lot too before KettleKomp™ (battery current compensation of battery voltage readings for the purposes of mode changes, such as battery to line mode). They still happen, but not as often. Typically it will be the fridge or freezer starting up; that puts a brief, sudden ~1 kW load on the inverter, which can pull the battery voltage down when the battery state of charge is low. With fully patched firmware (not available for the GE/GK/MG models), the errant switch to bypass mode only lasts 2 minutes, which is not so annoying.
Sometimes I see the voltage had dropped to < 240V in the data log. I had it set at 44V for change to Utility.
I believe that most of these GE/GK/MG models are 64 V models, i.e. they have the 1:7 turns ratio transformer, and start clipping the output waveform at around 48 V at the battery (assuming that the boost converter is off). If you are using 240 V output with a 1:7 transformer, you will be seeing more frequent and severe clipping. Moderate clipping doesn't seem to affect the output voltage very much; sine waves are pretty flat near the peaks. I believe that these inverters do true RMS voltage measurements (summing the square of measurements, and taking the square root of that sum. But as the distortion worsens, you can see the effect on the output voltage reading.
It has also happened when the bank isn't low, occasionally.
Perhaps it was utility charging at the time. When that is happening, the buck converter is operating, separating the bus voltage from the battery voltage times the turns ratio. That will allow for less distortion, but then the bus voltage is at the mercy of PV power, load power, and charge power. There could be brief times when the bus voltage undershoots, causing brief output distortion, and consequently lower output voltage.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

weber wrote:
Tue, 05 May 2020, 21:17
Or maybe Coulomb can point us to a post, maybe on the South African forum, where someone has already done that.
This post shows the AC-in and AC-out voltages the same, claiming to be an Axpert MKS II (PIP-5048MG), with no battery connected. [ Edit: the firmware version of 20.47 is strongly suggestive of a VM II, however. ]

This post (same topic, next page) seems to say that on an Axpert VM III (PIP-5048GK), blending of PV and AC-in power happens with the battery connected, when in SUB mode. Indeed when I look at the GK manual, I find that it shows this happening with SUB output source priority, when in line mode. So it seems that MG/VM IIIs have been doing this for some time.

I have no evidence of PV and AC-in blending in battery mode.

Edit: I used to think that output priority modes such as USB and SUB were merely renamings of UtI and SOL modes respectively, but now I believe that they are intended to show that they are subtly different.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by aim120 »

Here is the manual of GE/VMII model with high voltage MPPT vs a regular low voltage MPPT inverter, notice on the high voltage model the Bypass display is gone when its blending.
Image

You can watch this video sound off, unless you undestand them but the display is self explanatory. Skip to 2min mark of the video.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

aim120 wrote:
Tue, 05 May 2020, 23:23
... notice on the high voltage model the Bypass display is gone when its blending.
Yet, in the latest PIP-5048GK manual that I'm aware of (Feb 2019), the BYPASS indicator is on when blending (two arrows leading to the load):

VM III blend with bypass.png
VM III blend with bypass.png (49.76 KiB) Viewed 362 times
[ Edit: as already shown by DanielArdelian above. ]

Perhaps they ran out of LC Display segments, and had to have the two come on together. Or just designed by different engineers.

[ Edit: PIP-5048MG -> PIP-5048GK; I get these model names so mixed up. Sigh. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by weber »

The Watchpower image here
https://www.solar-shop.co.za/content/11 ... -power-use
certainly shows an inverter doing solar+utility->loads, with no battery. It claims to be of an MG/MKS II (PIP/Axpert). Is there anything in the image itself that confirms it is that model? e.g. the serial number 92931808103116, or the 20.47 firmware version? @coulomb
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by DanielArdelian »

Just a hunch:
Parallel operation seems to be available only on the models that we suspect to be doing double-conversion for "blending" PV + grid.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

weber wrote:
Wed, 06 May 2020, 16:41
It claims to be of an MG/MKS II (PIP/Axpert). Is there anything in the image itself that confirms it is that model? e.g. the serial number 92931808103116, or the 20.47 firmware version?
Alas, the first 4 digits, which could so easily be used to pinpoint the exact model, covers a wide range of inverters, from 3200 W PIP MS to dual and triple MPPT models, MG, and GE.

But good pickup on the firmware version. It is highly suggestive of a PIP-5048GE (Axpert VM II, not the same as an Axpert MKS II). I have a firmware version 20.44 for VM II, a recent post mentioned 20.45. I have photos of the insides of a VM II, and there is no sign of a PFC inductor. [ Edit: There are fairly extensive schematics in this service manual, and no mention of a large AC-DC converter, or PFC stage. ]

VM II internals.jpg
VM II internals.jpg (159.1 KiB) Viewed 322 times
If you're wondering about the dual transformers, it's just two transformers in series:

VM II dual transformers.jpg
VM II dual transformers.jpg (167.33 KiB) Viewed 322 times
This model does have an AC to DC converter, but it's a smallish power supply. It might possibly be big enough for battery charging, but not for powering 5 kW loads:

VM II AC SPS schem.jpg
VM II AC SPS schem.jpg (80.49 KiB) Viewed 322 times
VM II AC SPS.jpg
VM II AC SPS.jpg (194.69 KiB) Viewed 322 times
[ Edit: "exact number" → "exact model" ; removed "definitely" before "no sign"; added "possibly" before "be big enough" ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by aim120 »

This guys another video shows the SOL setting in action, this time he uses a clamp meter. I think he shows that in SOL mode, the AC input of the inverter drops vs in bypass mode. Anyone here knows what he is saying.
But then again its a Inverex, not a axpert from voltronics.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

aim120 wrote:
Thu, 07 May 2020, 01:03
But then again its a Inverex, not a axpert from voltronics.
I believe that Voltronic Power manufacture the Inverexes. Some Inverexes seem to have different specifications and firmware as Axperts, but this one is running main firmware version 20.44, the same as is available from the South African Powerforum. The display is also standard Axpert/PIP, some Inverexes have a custom display.

So this would be the same behaviour as any Axpert VM II, or PIP-3048GE, or indeed PIP-5048GE. The same 20.44 firmware runs both 3 kW and 5 kW models, it detects the power of the model at start-up.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by weber »

I concede defeat on one aspect at least. Clearly coulomb was right that all 3 high-voltage-SCC models can do solar+utility->loads. It's still not entirely clear how they do it. Or why some of them can only do it when there is no battery.

I note that merely blending solar+utility is not what's at issue here. All the low-voltage-SCC models can do that, but only as solar+utility->battery, not solar+utility->loads.
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