PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by johnnyZA » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 18:44

Hi everybody
Another “new” user here, reading together for a few months now.

I’m curious whether anybody tried the firmware with the kettle compensation on the PIP-5048MSE yet. I have the Axpert VM5000-48 (note not the VM II model) currently on firmware 20.13.

Would the 73.00l firmware also change the fan profile back to being based on load or temperature? Currently the fan that runs for 12 minutes every 30 minutes at 100% with no load or temperature is deafening.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 20:53

johnnyZA wrote:
Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 18:44
Another “new” user here
Welcome.
I’m curious whether anybody tried the firmware with the kettle compensation on the PIP-5048MSE yet. I have the Axpert VM5000-48 (note not the VM II model) currently on firmware 20.13.
Ah. I see I need to add another exclusion to my "Can I update my firmware" page. The PIP MSEs (also known as an Axpert VM series, whether followed by a Roman numeral or not) are Economy (Value) models. These have a different, smaller processor, with less RAM and lower "horsepower", which is why they can't be paralleled. It also means that they have to have different firmware. There are no patched firmwares for Economy/Value models, and therefore none on the 20.XX series.

Short answer: no, because it's impossible.
Would the 73.00l firmware also change the fan profile back to being based on load or temperature? Currently the fan that runs for 12 minutes every 30 minutes at 100% with no load or temperature is deafening.
The 73.00 [ edit: patched or not ] firmwares do have fans that are quite load dependent, so they won't run for 12 out of 30 minutes, but will instead run the fan at a speed dependent on the load (and I assume on temperature, but only if things get extreme). Perhaps these Economy models don't even have variable speed fans, I would not know. But again, you can't run 73.00, patched or not, on these Economy/Value models, so the point is moot.

Sorry to disappoint.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by johnnyZA » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 21:27

Thanks for the insightful answer @coulomb

I guess my next question would be whether anybody is willing to donate a handkerchief so I can go cry my eyes out? :| that fan is driving me crazy

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 07:07

johnnyZA wrote:
Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 21:27
cry my eyes out? :| that fan is driving me crazy
Perhaps you should work your way through this section of the index to this topic (first post). But don't skip the "Original fans put back" post. If your inverter really doesn't have speed control of the fans, then you should not get the problem with the occasional fan locked warning.

Hardware
...
[ Edit: "fan locked error" → "fan locked warning" ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by johnnyZA » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 13:58

Thanks coulomb, I’ll work through them again. I remember reading (I think it was on powerforum, cant find the exact link now) that the fans used to work normally but changed in a specific firmware version, 20.10 or 20.12. Thats why I hoped to avoid a hardware solution to what sounded like a software issue.

I’ll definitely work through these again. It looks like a fan replacement is in my future.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 15:37

Get a digital temperature control from ebay insulate the thermister probe with some heat shrink tubing put it in the inverter heatsink and let the temprature control unit do the cooling
I have done this with extra external 120mm fans when the heatsink gets to 42C it turns them on until it gets to 36C
You can also put a resistor in parallel with the relay contacts to keep the fans going at a slower speed all the time which may be enough cooling while under light load.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by bigjsl » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 17:00

Given MPP Australia only sell non patchable buggy models and given that I have just had my first 4048MS rubbish clone die, where can I safely buy a good PIP 48/60 volt / equivalent firmware updateable inverter or three?

Also, happy to give the dead one, minus the parallel kit, to an enthusiastic person. It cannot be firmware upgraded.

Cheers,

jsl
Last edited by bigjsl on Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 21:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 17:15

bigjsl wrote:
Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 17:00
Given MPP Australia only sell non patchable buggy models and given that I have just had my first 4048MS rubbish clone die, where can I safely buy a good PIP 48/60 volt / equivalent firmware updateable inverter or three?
I didn't realise there was such a thing as "MPP Solar Australia".
https://mppsolar.com.au/product-category/inverters/
Of the PIP-5048's I see they only sell the MK and GK which are indeed horribly buggy new models.

You can buy the good ol' PIP-5048MS (whose bugs were fewer to begin with, and which Coulomb and I have managed to fix) on eBay. e.g.
https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_fro ... s&_sacat=0
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 17:41

bigjsl wrote:
Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 17:00
where can I safely buy a good PIP 48/60 volt / equivalent firmware updateable inverter or three?
I can not help right now but will be upgrading two to the 64v for my NiFe cells , I have 6 PIPS , 4 in service and two spares
I have to make room , build a rack for the 40 cells and wire it all up then I will have two more than I need .

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by bigjsl » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 21:04

paulvk wrote:
Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 17:41
I have to make room , build a rack for the 40 cells and wire it all up then I will have two more than I need .
I have a spare that I will collect on the weekend and drop in which gets the system back online but if the units on eBay are genuine enough to update firmware it would be good to start with the higher voltage capability.

Thanks!

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Cactus » Fri, 30 Aug 2019, 16:06

Hi all,

I was hoping someone would be able to provide me with the value of capacitors C152 - C162 in a PIP-4048MS (C152 in Coulombs partial schematic on page 71 of this thread dated Thu, 13 Jul 2017, 21:17) as I managed to damage one of mine while cleaning the pcb during repairs and my old eyes don't help me to see any markings on any of them.

Many thanks for any assistance.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Fri, 30 Aug 2019, 16:54

Cactus wrote:
Fri, 30 Aug 2019, 16:06
Hi all,

I was hoping someone would be able to provide me with the value of capacitors C152 - C162 in a PIP-4048MS (C152 in Coulombs partial schematic on page 71 of this thread dated Thu, 13 Jul 2017, 21:17) as I managed to damage one of mine while cleaning the pcb during repairs and my old eyes don't help me to see any markings on any of them.

Many thanks for any assistance.
I don't think your eyes are the problem. There is no marking. They are 2.7 nF (2n7). I had to cut a track to measure that.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Cactus » Fri, 30 Aug 2019, 17:17

Many many thanks for that information Weber, much appreciated.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by hanshassan » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 02:54

Hello
I'm new to this forum here. I live in Germany and own a PIP 4048,
which showed error Error 99 after some time. After I patch the PB1 72.70b
the device works perfectly again. Thanks for this patch.
Maybe someone can still give hints on how to give the device the full solar power
can be removed without extending the battery bank. Eventually by automatic activation of abusers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 08:01

hanshassan wrote:
Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 02:54
I'm new to this forum here.
Welcome to the forum.
I ... own a PIP 4048, which showed error Error 99 after some time.
Did you mean fault code 90 (error 90)? If you have a genuine PIP-4048MS, this should never happen, but it does seem to have happened to some. In case it's not genuine, you should check if you have a clone. Also, 72.70b is quite old; you should consider updating to 73.00e.
Maybe someone can still give hints on how to give the device the full solar power
can be removed without extending the battery bank. Eventually by automatic activation of abusers.
I think Google Translate is letting us down a bit here :) . I think the word "abusers" should be "loads". So I assume you want to know how to make use of spare solar energy without reducing the life of the battery by discharging it significantly. That's a great question, and it's not yet resolved (as far as I know) for off-grid systems like this. The closest I've come across would be a Zappi EVSE for charging EVs (or one of their other products for other loads like water heaters). But they seem to only use AC sensors so far. Maybe one day they'll come up with a DC sensor so you can sense discharging of the battery, or someone will work out how to make a DIY equivalent.

A simple timer controlling a load is an easy but crude solution; obviously it doesn't sense clouds and can't react to instantaneous loads.

Even finding a suitable load is non-trivial. Water heating is OK, but in summer (especially in the northern part of Australia) when you have excess PV energy, you often don't need to heat water very much. EVs are good, but some days you drive a lot, and other days you might not drive at all. I considered farming for cryptocurrencies, but the markets are so volatile, and the degree of difficulty (how much solar energy it costs to mine a crypto coin) keeps increasing with time.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by arnolde73 » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 18:12

Hi, I've been running my pip4048 (actually labelled effekta ax-m 5000-48) without grid (just a generator for long sunless periods) for about 3 yesrs now, and today suddenly without any load>1000w and under cloudy sky, the power failed, and when I came to check, the relay was clicking and whole display+leds flashing about 2-3 times per second. This continued after turning off the bottom switch, and only stopped when i disconnected the battery. If i reconnect the battery it starts clicking+flashing again.

Does anyone have an idea what might have gone wrong?

Kind regards,
Ethan

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 21:47

arnolde73 wrote:
Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 18:12
Does anyone have an idea what might have gone wrong?
It sounds like the main power supply is failing after a fraction of a second. This power supply powers the processor, LC Display and its backlight, and all the control electronics. It could be a fault in the power supply, or something might be loading the power supply excessively. Since from your description the pattern seems to be regular, I'd guess the second case: power is good for several hundred milliseconds until the firmware turns on hardware component X, component X is faulty and causes the main power supply voltage to collapse, the processor resets, component X is turned off by the power going off, that allows the power supply voltage to come up again and the cycle repeats.

It could also be the "bootstrapping" of the power supply not working. When you turn on the inverter switch, for example, there is a pulse of power through the power supply, and all going well, it should be able to power the control chip (U10 in this schematic trace of the main power supply) from itself via D49. But if something is wrong with D49, or TX9/D57/R265/C118 which generate the +15 V, or something is loading the 15 V rail all the time, then the power supply won't "latch on" as soon as C7 charges up. That lets Q9 and Q10 stop conducting, the control chip is starved of power, and the power supply stops.

I'd say it's impossible to say more without testing the inverter-charger in a lab. If you're handy with electronics and have some time for it, you could read the "Repair" and the "Partial schematic traces" sections of the index (first post of this topic). Otherwise, it will have to be sent in for repair or replaced. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by arnolde73 » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 23:38

@coulomb
Thank you very much for your kind estimate.
By the way, here is a short video of the behaviour: https://youtu.be/kAvJpDz4JRw
I already guessed it would be no quick fix and ordered a new unit, when i have time i'll do some more diagnosis.
Regards, Ethan

P.S. I dont turn on the inverter switch, i left it off ever since it failed. I assume turning it on wont change anything...

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Sun, 08 Sep 2019, 07:20

arnolde73 wrote:
Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 23:38
I already guessed it would be no quick fix and ordered a new unit...
Something that I should have thought of yesterday, but only occurred to me as I watched your video, is that perhaps the battery (or one cell of the battery) has collapsed. Can you check the battery voltage, first with no load, then when you connect it to the inverter? You might need to use the "min and max" feature of your multimeter, if it has one, or use the "analogue" bar-graph feature, if it has one, to see the rapid dips in voltage that, if present, would cause this behaviour.

It might be easier to put some sort of load on your battery, to see if the sag in voltage is too high. Something like a 230 V incandescent light bulb, or a small resistive appliance like a toaster or bar heater might work, if you can find a way to temporarily put it across the battery. For the battery to collapse fast enough for your symptoms to occur, even a one amp load would show a dramatic voltage sag, I think. Remember that at 50 V, the battery will draw only some 5% of the power it will at 230 V. However, heating and incandescent loads draw several times more power than normal when cold.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by arnolde73 » Sun, 08 Sep 2019, 22:12

I doubt very much its the battery, i have 2 pylontechs in parallel and i assume their internal monitoring would signal such a failure, but I'll test just to make sure.

Edit 2 days later:
I hooked up a new inverter (same type) as drop-in replacement and it works fine, so it wasnt the battery. Also I found out there had been an overload after all, must have had a sudden short somewhere (which still persists) and does not blow the 16a circuit breaker. So that breaker stays off until i find the short.
Last edited by arnolde73 on Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by E85 » Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 19:10

I’m new to this forum and must thank you all for all the very useful info that I found here!

I bought 2nd hand unused Steca SOLARIX PLI 5000-48 that I plan to use with ‎Yuasa LEV50Ah LiMn2O4 cells from a crashed Peugeot iOn (Mitsubishi i-MiEV). The battery pack had 22 4s blocks (88 cells in series).

My original idea was to use the battery packs existing hardware and turn them into 4p 200Ah blocks so I could use 16 in series (16s4p) to make a battery of 200Ah ca 58V nominal. By setting the bulk- and equalization charge voltage to 64V that would give me 4V/cell which would not get them 100% fully charged but it only would benefit the battery life to keep them under 90% SOC and above 20% SOC.

https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/ ... s-row1.png
Image

As a BMS I-m going to use the 123smartBMS with bluetooth app and a Raspberry PI will be talking with the SOLARIX PLI through the USB port with a Raspberry PI and the solaranzeige.de software (I have that running now) and the plan is that also the 123smartBMS wil be connected to the RPI so that I can have much better controls of the state of charge, and then let the PI make smart decisions based on the SOC, weather forecast, electricity price like the charge current, cut-off voltage etc.

Now reading through this very informative thread, I have discovered some serious problem with my plan and some solutions too.

1 The electrolytic capacitors connected to the battery and maybe also MOS-fets may need to be replaced with better ones in order to not blow up in the 64V setting?
2 Changing the max utility charge current often is not a very good solution because you loose 40s solar charge after each charge and it is also wearing on the eeprom. But you made better firmware with ”Dynamic Charge Current Control” that could solve that (I currently have fw 72.20).

Q1 should I replace capacitors and MOS-fets or ditch my plan to make a 16S pack and make a 15S4P or even 14S6P even though that will make it more difficult to use the existing hardware.

Q2 there are two versions of the firmware but I didn’t find what is the difference between them, one is ”for lead acid (24S), lithium cobalt-blends (LCO, NMC, NCM, NCA) (14S), and lithium titanate (LTO) (21S or 20S)” the other for 15 or 16S LFP cells. If I would like to go to the higher voltages of 15S (or even 16S) should I use the LFP version of the software for my LMO cells or the lead acid software and what is the difference?

Currently I have a test setup with used 16S GBS LFP 50ah cells and with this relative small capacity the lack of kettle compensation is very obvious but I haven tried lowering the low voltage cut-off to see if that helps.

[ Edited Coulomb: added URL link above image, since there is robot check step that needs to happen before you can see the image the first time. ]

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 20:49

E85 wrote:
Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 19:10
Q1 should I replace capacitors and MOS-fets or ditch my plan to make a 16S pack and make a 15S4P or even 14S6P even though that will make it more difficult to use the existing hardware.
I recommend you use 14S if at all possible. Replacing the capacitors and MOSFETs is a terrible job, and even the replacements would last longer at the lower voltages.
Q2 there are two versions of the firmware but I didn’t find what is the difference between them, one is ”for lead acid (24S), lithium cobalt-blends (LCO, NMC, NCM, NCA) (14S), and lithium titanate (LTO) (21S or 20S)” the other for 15 or 16S LFP cells. If I would like to go to the higher voltages of 15S (or even 16S) should I use the LFP version of the software for my LMO cells or the lead acid software and what is the difference?
I recommend you use the LFP version. You can read about the differences here:
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php ... 332#p64095
Although some of the numbers have changed since then, the main reason for the LFP version is LFP's very flat voltage-versus-SoC curve. LMO isn't mentioned, because I thought it was an obsolete chemistry, but it has a flat curve similar to LFP, although at a voltage about 16/14 times higher.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by E85 » Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 05:44

Thanks for the swift and helpful reply!
weber wrote:
Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 20:49
I recommend you use 14S if at all possible. Replacing the capacitors and MOSFETs is a terrible job, and even the replacements would last longer at the lower voltages.
Yes I totally understand, 14S4P is simple I would loose energy capacity off course but if I manage to make (14) 6P blocks then that will give me even 1,3x the capacity of a16S4P battery pack
weber wrote:
Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 20:49
I recommend you use the LFP version. You can read about the differences here:
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php ... 332#p64095
Although some of the numbers have changed since then, the main reason for the LFP version is LFP's very flat voltage-versus-SoC curve. LMO isn't mentioned, because I thought it was an obsolete chemistry, but it has a flat curve similar to LFP, although at a voltage about 16/14 times higher.
I see, I had missed that post, it all makes sense to me now.

I will only have to find a suitable windows PC for the flashing then…

Thanks again!

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Modified PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS firmware with Dynamic Charge Current Control

Post by E85 » Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 18:12

The modified PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS firmware with the Dynamic Charge Current Control is perfect i my case because I would like to dynamically reduce the charging current when the 123smartBMS sees that a cell is reaching its max voltage.
Just to make sure that I understand the fail-safe function of the dynamic mode correctly, I would need to send a MNCHGC0### command at least once a minute (otherwise it will stop charging)?

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Re: Modified PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS firmware with Dynamic Charge Current Control

Post by coulomb » Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 20:12

E85 wrote:
Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 18:12
I would need to send a MNCHGC0### command at least once a minute (otherwise it will stop charging)?
Yes. It will behave as if an MNCHGC0500 command has been sent, setting the current limit to zero, except that the clock icon will appear next to the flashing dot. There will be no relay clicks or EEPROM wear associated with this. So if it happens during testing or the like, it's not a problem, charging will merely pause.

[ Edit: I had how the dot and clock icon would or would not flash all wrong. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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