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PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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djonexx
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by djonexx »

weber wrote:
Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 16:21
How do you know the identifiers are 2, 3 and 4. I'd expect them to be 0, 1 and 2. Do you receive an ACK in response to those MNCHGC commands?
From the output of QPIRI command, output mode:

00: single machine output
01: parallel output
02: Phase 1 of 3 Phase output
03: Phase 2 of 3 Phase output
04: Phase 3 of 3 Phase output

But I see now that I might have made a confusion - is there any way to get the ID (0-9) of the machine?

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by jds686868 »

Hi folks, not sure if this is the correct forum for this hypothetical question so please advise if not.

In the PIP4048/5048s you can limit the max charging current (solar + grid - option 2), lets say 60A. If you set max grid charging to say 2A (option 11), then max solar charging should be 58A. Is my assumption here correct?

What are the implications if you connect say a 10kw array to the SCC? I would assume the maximum current drawn will be 58A, even if the array could technically deliver more.
Is there any risk of damage to the SCC?

For the 5048MSD with dual SCC controllers, would each SCC be limited to their design spec (60A I think), even if you had max charging current set to say 100A (98A solar, 2A grid)? ie If 10kw arrays are connected to each SCC and one SCC was not working or the array not working would the remaining SCC try and draw 98A as per option 2 setting?

Why would you do this? Second hand panels are almost free, sometimes free.
So why wouldn't you over spec the arrays to produce the minimum required power to maintain battery charge on those rainy days? So on a rainy day the 10kw array may still be able to produce 1-2kw. In addition if you only draw half (say) the rated amps from the panels wouldn't the panels last longer?

Thoughts?
cheers
John

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber »

djonexx wrote:
Wed, 08 Apr 2020, 01:43
is there any way to get the ID (0-9) of the machine?
Send commands QPGS0, QPGS1, QPGS2, ... QPGS8. The first field of the response will be 1 if a machine with that ID exists, and if so, the second field will be its serial number.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber »

jds686868 wrote:
Wed, 08 Apr 2020, 05:43
In the PIP4048/5048s you can limit the max charging current (solar + grid - option 2), lets say 60A. If you set max grid charging to say 2A (option 11), then max solar charging should be 58A. Is my assumption here correct?
It depends on settings 1, 12, 13 and 16. But I don't think this matters for your final question, because in any case, the SCC won't supply more than its rated current of 60 A, at least not continuously.
What are the implications if you connect say a 10kw array to the SCC? I would assume the maximum current drawn will be 58A, even if the array could technically deliver more.
Is there any risk of damage to the SCC?
No. I would not connect a 10 kW array. A problem may occur when a cloud passes away from the sun. The SCC will attempt to protect itself against the rapidly rising input current by changing the voltage ratio of its DC-DC converter so that the voltage of the PV array rises, causing its current to fall. But it may not do it fast enough.
For the 5048MSD with dual SCC controllers, would each SCC be limited to their design spec (60A I think), even if you had max charging current set to say 100A (98A solar, 2A grid)? ie If 10kw arrays are connected to each SCC and one SCC was not working or the array not working would the remaining SCC try and draw 98A as per option 2 setting?
Each SCC would limit itself to its maximum current spec, over the long term.
Why would you do this? Second hand panels are almost free, sometimes free.
So why wouldn't you over spec the arrays to produce the minimum required power to maintain battery charge on those rainy days? So on a rainy day the 10kw array may still be able to produce 1-2kw.
I don't recommend oversizing the array by more than 40%, for the reason given above. It's safer not to oversize it at all. You do this at your own risk. And clearly you void any warranty if you go over the maximum array power the manufacturer specifies.

Even if the SCC never has an overcurrent event, the fact that it is operating near its maximum current for a greater percentage of the time, will cause its components to age faster than they otherwise would.
In addition if you only draw half (say) the rated amps from the panels wouldn't the panels last longer?
Not necessarily. When you don't use all the power available, most of the unused power is turned to heat in the panels, so they run a little hotter than they otherwise would. This could age them more rapidly. But it's probably nothing to worry about with a 40% oversized array.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

jds686868 wrote:
Wed, 08 Apr 2020, 05:43
In the PIP4048/5048s you can limit the max charging current (solar + grid - option 2), lets say 60A. If you set max grid charging to say 2A (option 11), then max solar charging should be 58A. Is my assumption here correct?
You'll be allowed to charge up to 60 A from solar, as long as the Utility isn't already charging at that time and has higher priority. If you happened to have enough solar for 59 A, then the utility charging would be limited to 1 A (depending on other settings, as Weber has stated).
What are the implications if you connect say a 10kw array to the SCC? I would assume the maximum current drawn will be 58A, even if the array could technically deliver more.
Is there any risk of damage to the SCC?
I believe that there is risk of damage to the SCC, and depending on many factors, there may be risk of damage to your battery, and to other parts of the inverter.

There are two issues. One is that the control constants are tuned for a maximum array size as specified, usually 3 or 4 kW for 5 kVA models. As Weber mentioned, it may not be able to throttle back power fast enough, but also the Integral part of the PI (Proportional-Integral) control loop may cause the power to wind back over the course of something like 30 seconds, which is plenty time to cause damage.

The other issue is the resolution of the Pulse Width Modulation channel. If it's designed for 4 kW, then every step change of the PWM ratio will cause a certain increase or decrease in power through the solar charge controller. With a 10 kW array attached, in some conditions it will have 2.5x the power change that it was designed for. So at minimum the control loop will be twitchy; at worst it may become unstable. The control systems in these inexpensive inverter-chargers is marginal at best; provoking it with 2.5x the design power is asking for trouble.

However, if you have access to cheap panels, there is no harm in connecting external MPPTs that are rated to handle the PV panels you connect them to. You may have to be a little careful to set the voltage thresholds on the external MPPTs a little lower than that of the inverter-charger, so the latter gets to finish the charge on its own, and change successfully from absorb to float stage.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by jds686868 »

Thanks for the feedback guys, really do appreciate your help and knowledge... The reason I ask is that because I have 2 out of 3 inverters (5048MSD) not working I thought I would add a few of the unused arrays together onto the remaining working inverter. Total for each is around 4.5kw - 5kw atm. This has been working ok for now, I have dialed back the max charging current to 100A (2A for grid) from 120A (2 x 60A), Option 1 is SBU, 16 is CSO, theory is that when in bypass mode the grid only charges the battery enough to keep it from going lower. So will use grid until the battery is charged up enough to revert back to battery mode.

I have ordered a couple of external SCCs so will be moving all/most of the charging external pending testing. This is in part to not stress the PIP SCCs but also to allow for a single larger 12-15kw inverter that just does "inverting". My original plan was to have all 3 inverters in parallel, however an overvoltage charging event has led to a sequence of failures in the other inverters. I read that others have had multiple failures in parallel operation when one inverter goes astray. I am waiting replacement main boards and SCC's (these had 3kw arrays connected at the time) from MPP Solar and hopefully they will arrive in the next month or so (yes they are very slow but seem to get there eventually).
No. I would not connect a 10 kW array. A problem may occur when a cloud passes away from the sun. The SCC will attempt to protect itself against the rapidly rising input current by changing the voltage ratio of its DC-DC converter so that the voltage of the PV array rises, causing its current to fall. But it may not do it fast enough.
My observations so far is that it is quite slow to ramp up the charge current either when the sun comes out or an additional load comes on line. I haven't timed it but it would take somewhere between 10 and 20 seconds to reach full charging current. Obviously dependent on battery SOC.
Even if the SCC never has an overcurrent event, the fact that it is operating near its maximum current for a greater percentage of the time, will cause its components to age faster than they otherwise would.
I have dialed back the max charge current, but was wondering how the 2 controllers would go with this setting......

I am now going through your posts and schematics to see if I can fix the failed main boards that I currently have (Blown IGBT's, erroneous battery voltage readings, etc). I have managed to get one working which had an out of spec NTC1, error 2 over temp. So apologies in advance I post some dumb questions about troubleshooting various problems.
cheers
John

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by djonexx »

weber wrote:
Wed, 08 Apr 2020, 06:01
djonexx wrote:
Wed, 08 Apr 2020, 01:43
is there any way to get the ID (0-9) of the machine?
Send commands QPGS0, QPGS1, QPGS2, ... QPGS8. The first field of the response will be 1 if a machine with that ID exists, and if so, the second field will be its serial number.
Thank you, weber, for pointing that out!

Finally got the Dynamic Charge Current Control working for me after ironing out a bug in the comm library which would not send command strings longer than 8 bytes (and MNCHGCmNNN plus 2 + CR has 13). I set the absorb and float voltages to 57.7V that being the maximum, and a while after the SOC reached 100% the BMS reported the charge current should be set to 0, again, rather abruptly (86A - 62A - 0A, within a few consecutive iterations). Now with the current set to zero, the battery maintains 57.7V and SOC 100%. Today was a sunny day and the charger was solar only, and I still need to see if there is any difference when charging from utility, as there are slight voltage differences between the two chargers.

Code: Select all

Apr 11 17:30:34 pvplant mono: Sending commmand QMAX
Apr 11 17:30:35 pvplant mono: Got response BMSMAX 57.70 0.00 86.50
Apr 11 17:30:35 pvplant mono: Device LGRESU 10L refreshed, sending notifications
Apr 11 17:30:35 pvplant mono: Setting dynamic charge current to 0.00
Apr 11 17:30:35 pvplant mono: Sending command MNCHGC1500
Apr 11 17:30:35 pvplant mono: Response: (ACK
Apr 11 17:30:35 pvplant mono: Sending command MNCHGC0500
Apr 11 17:30:36 pvplant mono: Response: (ACK
Apr 11 17:30:36 pvplant mono: Sending command MNCHGC2500
Apr 11 17:30:36 pvplant mono: Response: (ACK
I've considered implementing the Dynamic Load Control as well but doesn't make much sense for a 3-phase configuration with no paralleled inverters.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

I assume that the max current is the second number, after the max voltage, and that this the total current for all your paralleled battery modules.

Do you divide that by 3 before sending to the 3 inverter-chargers? Or maybe by other factors if your PV capacity isn't equal? Sending 10A to each inverter-charger would allow 30A, which is not what you want if the BMS limit is 10A.

Edit: well done getting it going. It seems that your cells are pretty well balanced, suggested by the abrupt current cutoff.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by djonexx »

Code: Select all

Apr 11 17:30:35 pvplant mono: Got response BMSMAX 57.70 0.00 86.50
Yes, the second field in the report is the maximum charge current.

I divided that by 3, round it down to an whole number and such each charger gets 1/3 of the total max charge current of the battery pack. The PV capacity is in theory equally distributed across all three chargers, however in practice the currents are not the same, for obvious reasons. All in all, I make sure the charge current is at any time less than the max current wanted by the BMS.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by daimyo »

Hi again ;)

Is there any way to "calibrate" battery charging icon on display...? Even when my batteries are full, icon still show that it is charging empty battery (icon is with no bars, then one, than two,...and so on)

It is different battery status on each inverter (total 3) :shock:

Thank You.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

daimyo wrote:
Tue, 14 Apr 2020, 05:07
Is there any way to "calibrate" battery charging icon on display...? Even when my batteries are full, icon still show that it is charging empty battery (icon is with no bars, then one, than two,...and so on)
Huh. The firmware checks to see if either PV or utility charging is happening to decide whether to display the graph as charging (sequence of zero, one,... bars [ edit: see last paragraph ]), or the fixed number of bars, usually based on battery voltage, but sometimes obtained from a BMS. All the paralleled units should agree about whether charging is happening, it seems to me. What version of main (U1) firmware is this happening with?

Edit: On re-reading the firmware (and as many will be aware from watching the LC Display while charging, something I rarely do), when charging, the minimum number of bars the bar graph starts with depends on the inverter's idea of SOC, usually based on battery voltage. So it doesn't always start at zero bars, as I implied above.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber »

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 14 Apr 2020, 07:09
Huh. The firmware checks to see if either PV or utility charging is happening to decide whether to display the graph as charging (sequence of zero, one,... bars), or the fixed number of bars, usually based on battery voltage, but sometimes obtained from a BMS. All the paralleled units should agree about whether charging is happening, it seems to me. What version of main (U1) firmware is this happening with?
By looking at daimyo's earlier posts we can see that he has PIP-4048MS's so there is no way they can be obtaining the SoC from a BMS. And we see he is running firmware version 73.00e (on 3 inverters operating in parallel mode).
daimyo wrote:
Tue, 14 Apr 2020, 05:07
Is there any way to "calibrate" battery charging icon on display...? Even when my batteries are full, icon still show that it is charging empty battery (icon is with no bars, then one, than two,...and so on)
The only explanation I can think of, is a difference in voltage calibration between the 3 inverters. See this post:
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=71631#p71631
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

weber wrote:
Tue, 14 Apr 2020, 09:54
The only explanation I can think of, is a difference in voltage calibration between the 3 inverters.
I wasn't reading the firmware correctly, and assumed that when charging, the battery icon always cycled between 0 and 4 bars. But I now see that the minimum number of bars depends on the inverter's idea of state of charge, which for 73.00e is always based on the battery voltage, as Weber stated.

So I also agree with Weber that any battery icon difference would (should?) be due to a difference in battery voltage calibration.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by daimyo »

Thank You for explanation, but is there any way to fix this?

I can make video so that you can see what is happening during charging when batteries are almost full or full.

On older FW battery icon was working fine, not always perfect but icon was not showing charging from 0 bars when batteries was full.

Best regards

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber »

daimyo wrote:
Tue, 14 Apr 2020, 18:53
Thank You for explanation, but is there any way to fix this?
I already told you how to fix it, if it is due to a difference in battery voltage calibration.

Follow the link in my previous post.

If you get all three inverters reading the same battery voltage within ±0.1 V and the problem still occurs, another possibility is that you haven't set up "Kettle Compensation" correctly. See the section of that name in http://dkeenan.com/AussieView%20and%20K ... Manual.txt
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by daimyo »

weber wrote:
Tue, 14 Apr 2020, 19:57
daimyo wrote:
Tue, 14 Apr 2020, 18:53
Thank You for explanation, but is there any way to fix this?
I already told you how to fix it, if it is due to a difference in battery voltage calibration.

Follow the link in my previous post.

If you get all three inverters reading the same battery voltage within ±0.1 V and the problem still occurs, another possibility is that you haven't set up "Kettle Compensation" correctly. See the section of that name in http://dkeenan.com/AussieView%20and%20K ... Manual.txt
OK, will try to adjust kettlekomp, thank you.

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PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by teba »

Hi there!

I'm an owner of two "ISolar SM 5KW" from EASunPower living in Germany. The inverters seems to be rebranded Axpert MKS 5K.
The running firmware is version 72.30. The installed system uses pylontechs US2000b LFP batteries.

After reading this really informative and extraordinary well intra linked thread I learned a lot about this inverter and battery charging in general.

I think about down-upgrading the firmware of my inverters to version 72.20e.

My problem is: I don't have access to a windows machine. I think about using the windows emulator for flashing the firmware.
Is there anybody who has tried this before?

What does this ReflashTool_AxpertHV64V.exe exactly do? Could I achieve this with another (unix) tool too? Maybe someone has sniffed the serial line during the flashing and knows about this?

Many thanks to coulomb and weber for this great achievement and especially for making the result available!

One more question: My inverters are not or only partial reachable when the mppt (SCC-board) has a lot to do. I often get timeouts or uncomplete answers via the serial line at high noon. Is this normal? Do you have such experiences too? Or is this the price I pay for buying this cheap brand?

Cheers,
Lars
Last edited by teba on Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

teba wrote:
Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 13:59
I think about down-upgrading the firmware of my inverters to version 72.20e.
Of course, you realise that you would be missing out on whatever improvements are present in factory 72.30 as opposed to factory 72.20.
My problem is: I don't have access to a windows machine. I think about using the windows emulator for flashing the firmware.
I use Windows myself, so I've not tried it. But I can't see why it would not work.
What does this ReflashTool_AxpertHV64V.exe exactly do?
It sends special commands to the inverter-charger, essentially sending the hex file in bits and pieces with checking.
Could I achieve this with another (unix) tool too?
No. It's complex enough that it's not worth attempting this.
Many thanks to coulomb and weber for this great achievement and especially for making the result available!
Thanks, good to know we're appreciated.
One more question: My inverters are not or only partial reachable when the mppt (SCC-board) has a lot to do. I often get timeouts or uncomplete answers via the serial line at high noon. Is this normal? Do you have such experiences too? Or is this the price I pay for buying this cheap brand?
I'd suspect temperature more than overload from the SCC processor. The SCC processor only communicates with the DSP at 2400 bps, or about 4 ms between characters. The DSP can execute some 10⁵ instructions in that time. A command likely arrives only every second or so; it's not likely to trouble the DSP.

My guess, confimed slightly by faint memory of others having this problem, is that it could be the temperature of the communications board. If so, it's worse at noon not because it has more to do, but because it's hotter. Some communications boards seem marginal at best sometimes. When it's playing up near noon, try squirting the comms board with a "can of cold" to see if it comes good. I suspect that the opto couplers are sometimes a bit slow or low gain. It might be worth replacing the opto isolators on the comms board with better spec replacements.

Better yet, since you have two comms boards, swap them, so that you are using the good one for serial commands (assuming you didn't get two bad ones). This is more easily achieved by talking to the other inverter-charger's serial port. [ Edit: I mean, simply plug the RJ-45 plug into the RJ-45 socket for the other inverter-charger. ] All the commands should work just as well from one or the other (i.e. master or slave should not matter).

I note that while commands operate at 2400 bps, the reflash tool switches the serial communications to 9600 bps for most of the reflashing, so if the board is marginal at 2400 bps, it may be so poor at 9600 bps as to not be reliable or even usable at all. I don't believe that this is because of the EASun brand; many of the PIP/Axpert/Other branded Voltronic Power inverter-chargers seem to have this problem. It's just the luck of the draw, sadly.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by teba »

coulomb wrote:
Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 19:40
Could I achieve this reflashing with another (unix) tool too?
No. It's complex enough that it's not worth attempting this.
OK, I wont try to.
One more question: My inverters are not or only partial reachable when the mppt (SCC-board) has a lot to do. I often get timeouts or uncomplete answers via the serial line at high noon. Is this normal? Do you have such experiences too? Or is this the price I pay for buying this cheap brand?
I'd suspect temperature more than overload from the SCC processor. The SCC processor only communicates with the DSP at 2400 bps, or about 4 ms between characters. The DSP can execute some 10⁵ instructions in that time. A command likely arrives only every second or so; it's not likely to trouble the DSP.

My guess, confimed slightly by faint memory of others having this problem, is that it could be the temperature of the communications board. If so, it's worse at noon not because it has more to do, but because it's hotter. Some communications boards seem marginal at best sometimes. When it's playing up near noon, try squirting the comms board with a "can of cold" to see if it comes good. I suspect that the opto couplers are sometimes a bit slow or low gain. It might be worth replacing the opto isolators on the comms board with better spec replacements.

Better yet, since you have two comms boards, swap them, so that you are using the good one for serial commands (assuming you didn't get two bad ones). This is more easily achieved by talking to the other inverter-charger's serial port. [ Edit: I mean, simply plug the RJ-45 plug into the RJ-45 socket for the other inverter-charger. ] All the commands should work just as well from one or the other (i.e. master or slave should not matter).

I note that while commands operate at 2400 bps, the reflash tool switches the serial communications to 9600 bps for most of the reflashing, so if the board is marginal at 2400 bps, it may be so poor at 9600 bps as to not be reliable or even usable at all. I don't believe that this is because of the EASun brand; many of the PIP/Axpert/Other branded Voltronic Power inverter-chargers seem to have this problem. It's just the luck of the draw, sadly.
Seems I got two bad ones. Both inverters show the same behaviour.
In my situation it would be strange if it would be the temperature. Isn't the comm board on the lowest position just beside air intake? The inverter is attached to an aluminium plate on a cool basement wall. The basement has nearly the same temperature all year long.
The temperature I get with the QPIGS command has always (nearly half a year now) been between 27°C and 41°C with two spikes up to 46°C for up to one minute.

I'm afraid to solder anything on these electronics.
Could it be something else? How do I test possible causes?

There is another question I'd like to ask.
VoltricPower seems to have our kind of inverter in an 19" rack format too:
http://voltronicpower.com/en-US/Product/Detail/EPS
I tried to get some of these here in germany without luck. They would have been fit to my pylontech US2000b much more, because they are in a rack too.
Is there anyone out there using this type and could confirm that these are the same kind of inverters?

I asked the EASun sellers and the MPPSolar sellers if I could get this type of inverter from their brand but got only warm words.

Cheers,
Lars

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coulomb
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

teba wrote:
Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 20:42
VoltricPower seems to have our kind of inverter in an 19" rack format too:
http://voltronicpower.com/en-US/Product/Detail/EPS
...
Is there anyone out there using this type and could confirm that these are the same kind of inverters?
My guess is that these are UPS only; the manual doesn't mention PV at all. The brochure mentions an optional MPPT solar charge controller. I'd say that's the equivalent of the external MPPTs you can get from Voltronic, probably packaged into a 19" rack format. It's not clear to me that these two units (the UPS and the solar charge controller) would talk to each other or integrate in any way.

So in short: I'd say no, it [ edit: the EPS-5K ] is not the same as a PIP / Axpert / EASun in a 19" format.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

teba
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by teba »

coulomb wrote:
Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 21:31
teba wrote:
Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 20:42
VoltricPower seems to have our kind of inverter in an 19" rack format too:
http://voltronicpower.com/en-US/Product/Detail/EPS
...
Is there anyone out there using this type and could confirm that these are the same kind of inverters?
My guess is that these are UPS only; the manual doesn't mention PV at all. The brochure mentions an optional MPPT solar charge controller. I'd say that's the equivalent of the external MPPTs you can get from Voltronic, probably packaged into a 19" rack format. It's not clear to me that these two units (the UPS and the solar charge controller) would talk to each other or integrate in any way.

So in short: I'd say no, it's not the same as a PIP / Axpert / EASun in a 19" format.
The version with solar charger seems to be named differently.
Here is the manual for an "EPS-M 5K". It differs from the "EPS 5K" that can be downloaded from the website.
The programm codes seem to be identical to the codes for our inverters.
EPS M5K manual 20170418.pdf
Manual for VoltronicPower EPS-M 5kW
(3.64 MiB) Downloaded 19 times

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

teba wrote:
Sat, 18 Apr 2020, 04:48
Here is the manual for an "EPS-M 5K". It differs from the "EPS 5K" that can be downloaded from the website.
Ah! It does seem quite similar to a PIP-5048MS / Axpert MKS. The main difference seems to be with the display; it only has two sets of numeric segments. That means that the firmware for these will always have to be at least slightly different to the firmware for the standard models. That leaves open the possibility that they might lag in firmware updates.
The programm codes seem to be identical to the codes for our inverters.
Yes, yet the EPS 5K model has completely different settings numbers. That's one of the reasons I considered the EPS 5K models to be so very different.

Considering that these would be primarily intended for industrial installations, as opposed to domestic installations, I wonder if they populate them with higher spec parts, leading to better reliability, at a slightly higher price point. That would be very welcome from many customers.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

teba
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Joined: Thu, 16 Apr 2020, 18:12

Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by teba »

I've done it. My first inverter has firmware 72.20e.

It worked with wine-3.0-1ubuntu1 on ubuntu 18.04.4 LTS with a prolific usb2serial adapter. I had to symlink /dev/ttyS0 to /dev/ttyUSB0, because my symlink in ~/.wine/dosdevices/com1 was rewritten to /dev/ttyS0 every time I started the flash programm.
The proper solution is to define the COM1 port in the wine registry.

Is it correct, that I can't disable KettleKomp™?
Are there other differences between 72.20e and 72.20c besides KettleKomp™? If not I simply have to reflash to version 72.20c to disable it?

I'm unsure if I like KettleKomp™ (they way I understood it) or not. I'll have an eye on the voltages told by the inverter and these told by the batteries.

For my installation with 5 (yet) Pylontech US2000b I use the voltage settings suggested here.
What would be the suggested cut-off voltage for 15s LFP batteries (without KettleKomp™)?
It was 47.5V in the original firmware. Is this a good value?

Thanks again for your great work!

Cheers,
Lars

[Edit: proper solution for com1 definition]

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by teba »

There is a new question.
What does this PF1 really mean?

I thought it is the ratio of real power tor apparent power. But I understand this only for power consuming devices.
What does this mean for an inverter?

My inverter provides an apparent power of e.g. 598VA when the real power is 446W. The inverter is sold as a PF1 version. Shouldn't the apparent power be the same as the real power? I thought the inverter compensates a ratio unequal to 1.

Thanks,
Lars

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

teba wrote:
Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 02:58
What does this PF1 really mean?
It's more or less a marketing term. It's the ratio of maximum real power to maximum apparent power. Equivalently, it's the minimum power factor for the load that will maximise real power from the inverter.

Consider 5 kVA models. A PF0.8 model has a maximum real output power of 4000 W. That's because the DC-DC converter (battery to bus) is limited to just over 4000 W. A PF1 model is rated at 5000 W; its DC-DC converter is rated at just over 5000 W.

[ Edit: in both cases, the inverter proper (the DC to AC converter) is capable of passing 5 kW, as long as it is into a load with a power factor of 1. 5 kW at PF1 is the same current, and therefore the same strain on the IGBTs, as a 5 kVA load at any power factor. So the inverter proper didn't have to be beefed up, only the DC-DC converter. ]
I thought the inverter compensates a ratio unequal to 1.
I don't believe that it's possible to do that. A grid interactive inverter can do that, but it has the mains to "push against". By timing its voltage, it can manipulate the phase of the current, and hence affect the overall power factor. With a passive load, that's not possible. These "off-grid" inverters are not supposed to push power (of any phase) into the mains.

In any case, these inverters don't attempt to correct the power factor of the load, as you've found.

[ Edit: "Equivalently, it's the power factor" → "Equivalently, it's the minimum power factor". Thanks for pointing out the error, Weber. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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