PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 12 May 2017, 01:15

Thanks Weber,
              I gave that setting a try today but I get the same behavior from the PIP.

30A works perfect but set it at anything more and it will fall back (typical around 38 - 43A. Voltage and frequency from the generator all look stable. No errors I can see each time it drops to 0 amps and starts ramping up again.

I guess one experiment I could try is connecting the new PIP to a separate 40ah 48v lithium bank to power it and then feed it AC input from a 15A wall outlet (That's powered by my selectronic inverter) and see if it will then charge the 40Ah 48v bank at over 30A stable. This would eliminate any fussy Ac input issues it could have with my generator.

A bit of messing around but only option now I am full time offgrid.

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Post by solamahn » Fri, 12 May 2017, 01:55

Another consideration with completely off grid systems with no generator backup and Pb is to not have the battery bank too big, otherwise the batteries might not get fully charged often enough to prevent sulphating. I always set LVD to 48v. PV wattage and total daily power use would also influence my choice of battery bank size. Sometimes smaller is better.
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 12 May 2017, 04:24

I only run 400ah lithium and just over 10,000w of PV. So no issues with stagnating pb.

Opening the generator room the other day was like breaking open a tomb spider webs every where and a thick layer of dust. My wife mentioned we should burn the fuel as it was a few years old. Had a bit of algy growing In it but burned ok.

I have considered selling it as it's going to wast.



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Post by solamahn » Fri, 12 May 2017, 10:31

Sounds to me like your problem is with the speed of the generator. As the generator is loaded up, it's speed and frequency are reduced below the low frequency cut off threshold of the pip and the pip then disconnects from the generator. The generator speed then increases to its no load speed and the pip reconnects. Try the test again and monitor the ac frequency on the LCD screen of the pip.
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 12 May 2017, 13:14

I will have another look at that. Though a 60A...3000w load on a 8kw generator (3 cyl diesle Kubota) doesn't slow it down much.

Actually I tested the pip charging happy at 30A. Then plugged my electric car into the generator at the same time 3200w load (total 4700w)

The pip was happy to continue charging. So I am almost certain it's not load.




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Post by andys » Fri, 12 May 2017, 13:40

With my much smaller (single cylinder Honda) generator I experienced the same thing.

The generator is rated for over 3kW output, but once I go above around 2.2kW the voltage at the PIP input sags below about ~220VAC, the PIP cuts out and starts ramping up from zero again.

I can trigger this pretty reliably if I add any extra loads. So I'm stuck with lower charge rates just in case the fridge motor kicks in, which is annoying.

Really wish the PIP had a constant grid input mode where it adjusts charge rate based on loads connected.

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Post by solamahn » Fri, 12 May 2017, 14:28

The only other thing I can think of is the quality of the generator AC output which might have something to do with the length and size of the cable between the generator and pip
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 12 May 2017, 14:37

I will test again today (perhaps make a short youtube video) but from memory my generator was feeding about 248v at 3000rpm no load and dropped to about 246v under load and over 240v even at 5000w (PIP at 30A and 3200w car charger combined load). So I don't think my situation is overloading the generator.

Though funny your dropping out at almost the exact charge rate that I was experiencing around 2200w or just over 40A.



Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 12 May 2017, 04:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by coulomb » Fri, 12 May 2017, 15:14

Earlier:
offgridQLD wrote: So I wired the generator back to my other Selectronic inverter/charger and set the charge limit to 100A and it had no trouble at all loading the generator to 100A and charging at over 5000w.
Was that to the same small battery pack? Maybe 40 A into a small battery pack on the PIP is increasing the battery voltage to the point where the PIP decides it's full. If you have a much larger battery on your Selctronic, it would not have this issue.

However, I would expect the PIP to merely back off the current, not reduce it to zero.
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Post by xenonhost » Fri, 12 May 2017, 15:28

Quick question: I have 5 pip4048 connected in parallel; when I put 10A charging current in watchpower, each PIP will charge with 10 amps, or the total charging will be 10A?

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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 12 May 2017, 15:33

No Coulomb I was testing the PIP on the same 400ah bank as the Selectronic.

That said I did think along the same lines yesterday. As in...Was the battery voltage increasing high enough to have that effect on my 400ah bank?

Based on my setting in the PIP and the voltages of the 400ah bank at about 70%SOC while charging it wasn't.
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Post by Johny » Fri, 12 May 2017, 15:35

I wonder if the PIP has a PFC front end on its charger. If not, it could be the high harmonic content that is causing grief.

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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 12 May 2017, 15:42

solamahn wrote: The only other thing I can think of is the quality of the generator AC output which might have something to do with the length and size of the cable between the generator and pip


I have about 15m total length underground of 10mm2...(could even be 16mm2) 3 core cable so no voltage drop worth worrying about.

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Post by andys » Fri, 12 May 2017, 15:46

I should add that the exact same thing happens to me when charging on mains (grid). Due to high cable length and poor quality, the voltage drops to 220V and below, and the pip cuts out at around the same point.

I always assumed it was just a low voltage cut-out but maybe something else is going on.

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Post by coulomb » Fri, 12 May 2017, 16:06

xenonhost wrote: Quick question: I have 5 pip4048 connected in parallel; when I put 10A charging current in watchpower, each PIP will charge with 10 amps, or the total charging will be 10A?

I don't use Watchpower, but my guess is that it will send a 10 A command to the PIP it is connected to, which will immediately broadcast the message to the 4 slaves, so they will all contribute 10 A.

[ EDIT: I no longer believe that this is correct. All current limits are separate for each inverter; they can all have different limits. With watchpower, I believe that you will get and change the setting for the inverter that is selected in the leftmost column, described as the "inverter navigation" pane in the manual. So read and set each one separately; the maximum total charge current will be total for the maximum charge currents of each inverter. ]

The master seems to be aware of what the slaves are doing, so I suspect that if you have 10 A per PIP and say two of them have no panels connected, the others will contribute more to make the total 50 A. So effectively, what you put into Watchpower will be "per inverter/charger".

This means that you will have coarse control over the total charge current (e.g. 50 A steps of total charge current), but with 5 paralleled units, you'll need a quite large battery anyway, capable of a large charge and discharge currents, so it evens out somewhat.
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 12 May 2017, 18:02

andys wrote: I should add that the exact same thing happens to me when charging on mains (grid). Due to high cable length and poor quality, the voltage drops to 220V and below, and the pip cuts out at around the same point.

I always assumed it was just a low voltage cut-out but maybe something else is going on.


I don't think its low voltage with my issue as my generator input voltage to the PIP never dropped below 248v. Though hz always was just over 50hz (my guess is it would be lower hz under say a 75% generator max capacity load like 110A..6000w

Edit: I will check my generators RPM (as i have a feeling it could be a tad over 3000rpm and that's why the HZ and voltage is a tad high.

I made a small youtube video of my PIP charging via the generator. PIP set at 60A and showing the drop out issue + showing the PIP happy charging at 30A..link to video below.


Youtube video of PIP charging issue
https://youtu.be/pDvkEumI28U

Pic of generator and spec sticker.
Image

Image
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Post by andys » Fri, 12 May 2017, 18:50

Similar behaviour to mine, but yours is triggering quickly at 30A, mine can go up to 40A and sit there for 5-10 minutes (less if I'm running loads too).

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Post by paulvk » Sat, 13 May 2017, 02:44

With watch power you have to set the charge on each PIP individually.

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Post by paulvk » Sat, 13 May 2017, 02:57

I watched your video 54 hertz is a bit too high and it appeared to drop the load on the generator when the frequency dropped, with the grid a 1 hertz drop would be a big problem.

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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 13 May 2017, 03:43

Will test it on mains power if it's happy to charge at more than 30a from that then I will move on to tweaking generator settings to get closer to 240v and 50hz.


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Post by weber » Mon, 15 May 2017, 00:57

Kurt,

There are some interesting specs on generator inputs, from Giant Power here:
http://www.giantpower.com.au/technical-faq
Pretty much the only one it could be violating, with the APL setting, is the frequency slew rate, although we certainly didn't see that on the display.
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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 15 May 2017, 04:02

Thanks Weber,
              I spent some time with the generator this weekend and using the fluke87v I was able to set the output to spot on 50hz with 246v. With very little fluctuation between 25-75% load.

One thing I did notice was the 20+ pages in the selectronic manual referring to a number of generator based settings that can be tweeked to ensure transitional loading, frequency balancing and so on work with a variaty of generators. I also noticed the accepted input specs were resonbly relaxed for the selectronic just like the PIP.

So with the gens output fine tuned a gave it another go on the pip without success.

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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 15 May 2017, 04:11

One thing to note​ is just before the pip disconnects the gen the last few seconds that the pip is charging as it aproches 40A it gets a harmonic noise that sounds loader and lower frequency Than It's typical fiant high frequency noise.

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Post by paulvk » Tue, 16 May 2017, 02:27

You also need to look at what the power factor is with the generator
How old is the generator?
Also if you can get to it without too much trouble test the capacitor in the generator they have a habit of slowly dying.
Having an oscilloscope across the output it would be good to see the waveform.
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 16 May 2017, 04:57

The generator was two years old when we purchased the home 6 years ago. The generator has been run about 1hr pr year over that 6 years just to spash oil around it. So it's like new. I did pull the brush set out and inspect it and yes I did see the capacitor when doing so.

Im not concerned with power factor as it's 8kw at pf of 1 is is almost capable of running the litte 3000w pip charger load three times over.

To be honest I think the PIP is the issue not the genset as it behaves perfect at any load when feeding it to the selectronic inverter charger

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