PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by joaquinsfy » Wed, 26 Apr 2017, 02:44

@weber, @coulomb, thanks guys,

Sorry i make a mistake "lithium ion", and understood that also it's not so accurate.

i will say "18660 batteries" :-)

I will install the PB version, and set the 29 parameter to 46.2, that means 3.3 volts * cell, it's ok for now... but many people set to 3V the cell cutoff.

Thanks again Guys. i will keep you posted with my progress.

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Post by paulvk » Thu, 27 Apr 2017, 04:20

I have a ESR meter on the way.
I will measure the various caps and see what the results are.
Note it can measure at 100kHz
Looking at two cases of smoking caps high current is involved.
The vacuum cleaner with commuter in a shorting position (almost a short).
Howard with probably nearly 90amps on 48v side.
In my opinion the ripple current is the problem, draw a lot of current from the batteries the ripple becomes too much for the caps heating them.
Once the caps are gone high ripple & voltage spikes, because of this the MosFets fail.

I can only recommend that the resistance to the batteries be kept very low.
I have 500mm of 35mm2 cable to my positive 1 meter long 100mm2 buss bar which the batteries positives are connected (I have a positive earth system) and 1 meter of 35mm2 to my negative shunt on the other side of that is 11 25mm2 cables from the battery banks via circuit breakers.
There is more than 30kg of copper in the cables!

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Post by coulomb » Thu, 27 Apr 2017, 14:08

paulvk wrote: I have a ESR meter on the way.
I will measure the various caps and see what the results are.

Excellent. I hope you saved some failed capacitors to check your theory. I'm pretty sure it will be validated.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by weber » Thu, 27 Apr 2017, 17:24

I am aware of at least 3 different failure modes involving battery-side caps and/or MOSFETs. They might be called slow, medium and fast failures.

The slow mode has no obvious venting of the caps, but has the MOSFETs fail after 3 months or more of operation. This seems likely to be due to the caps having high ESR due to reaching the end of their 2000 hour life due to running constantly near their maximum temperature (due to ripple current) and near their maximum voltage.

The medium-speed mode involves venting of caps. If this is noticed early, the MOSFETs may not fail. It seems obvious to me that it is caused by heating of the caps to well beyond their rated temperature, by ripple current. Is there any alternative hypothesis as to what would cause the caps to vent?

The fast mode is the one observed with the vacuum cleaner, which was all over in less than a second. The MOSFETs failed as soon as the vacuum cleaner was turned on. The motor didn't even spin. The same vacuum cleaner had been used many times previously, and has been used many times since. The inverter had been in service for less than 3 months and had been only lightly loaded for most of that time, and was lightly loaded at the time of the failure.

However it had been a very hot summer and the inverter was not in air conditioning. So the capacitors may have aged significantly and so increased their ESR, and so although not at end-of-life they may have been less capable of controlling an unusually high voltage spike when it arrived. It is only in this case that it would be interesting to measure the ESR of the caps from the failed unit and compare it with new ones.
Last edited by weber on Thu, 27 Apr 2017, 07:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by weber » Thu, 27 Apr 2017, 17:28

In the vacuum cleaner case, the cabling between the battery and the inverter consists of 2 metres of 100 mm² (2 x 50 mm² in parallel) and 800 mm of 50 mm².
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Post by christians » Sun, 30 Apr 2017, 17:29

hey guys. i got firmware version 52.30 and 1.24 and i think its working pretty well. what am i missing with the latest firmware?

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 01 May 2017, 16:14

christians wrote: what am i missing with the latest firmware?

In short, not much. Since you're not using a patched firmware, you could be affected by the "too early to float" bug. This bug can be a bit subtle, as it only shows up when the charge current is low. So you might have it, and it might be undercharging your battery, and you might not know it. As far as I can tell, the charge bug has existed at least from firmware versions 52.02 to 73.00.

[ Edit: the latest official firmware, 73.00, still has the bug. ]

Changes to the official firmware have been fairly modest, usually minor changes here and there, often to take advantage of changing hardware capability, such as a higher maximum charge current of 60 or 80 A. So that won't affect you.

One exception to this is 72.70, which introduced some extra settings designed for occasional equalisation of lead acid batteries.

Edit: 73.00 has introduced a new option for setting 04, Power Saving Mode. It is also the default, and has the label "NOr". Does anyone have firmware 73.xx, and if so does the manual indicate what this setting is about?

[ Edit: reworded first paragraph, since it could be read as saying that the latest firmware fixes the charging bug. ]

[ Edit 2: NOr or NOk -> NOr. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Mon, 08 May 2017, 08:57, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by Ian60D » Thu, 04 May 2017, 18:28

Hi My name is Ian,
Well I have read all 67 pages and have learnt a lot.
I am looking to use 3 x PIP-4048's in a 3 phase configuration.
I will be using this to power equipment in my shed. Plus powering the house.
System is will be RAPS. No mains.
I read a comment that there could be problems with unbalanced loads.
Has anyone used this configuration? Any problems?
An alternative would be a 4th unit just for the single phase stuff but don't really want to spend the money if I don't have to.
I had a look at the Giant site but it appears from the site that they only offer full systems now?
Thanks in advance.
Cheers Ian

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Post by Ian60D » Thu, 04 May 2017, 18:54

solamahn wrote: It's actually running in single phase now. Had some problems balancing the loads with the 3 phase plus they are using a single phase generator for backup. It runs an office block and a workshop


Found the original comment. Any more details Solamahn? The other person looking at this was Kurt in Brisbane. How did you go Kurt?
Cheers Ian

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Post by andys » Thu, 04 May 2017, 19:06

I'm also working on a shed+house setup and it just seemed too hard to balance loads, so I'm attempting to stick to single phase.

Also I've discovered you can single phase 4 pole electric motors in up to 3.7kW (5HP) so I can't see single phase ever being a problem for me.

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Post by solamahn » Thu, 04 May 2017, 19:33

With 3 4048's in single phase parallel, you have a pool of 12kw to run all your single phase appliances on and will not overload until your demand exceeds 12kw. If you are running a 3 phase appliance, then you have to have the 4048's setup for 3 phase. If you only have single phase appliances and have the 4048's set up for 3 phase, then it is easier to overload a phase because now you have 3 pools of 4kw so if a phase demand exceeds 4kw, you have an overload situation. Your utility or generator supply being either single phase or 3 phase also requires your 4048's to be programmed the same way.
I am installing 2 4048V in single phase parallel at the moment. 30 x 300w panels and 16 x 700Ah Lifepo4
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Post by xenonhost » Thu, 04 May 2017, 21:31

I bought 48 Winston cells 40Ah and I need to know how to connect them in series/parallel to PIP4048, and what voltages I have to put into PIP. I have no BMS, I couldn't find one in Europe. please help!

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Post by solamahn » Thu, 04 May 2017, 22:03

Don't bother with BMS. Connect 3P16S. 16 sets in series, each set is 3 in parallel. Set your low voltage disconnect to 48, float to 54v and bulk to 54.6. Connect a load of about 1kw and bring the battery bank down to 48v checking every now and then to make sure that no group of 3 cells in parallel goes too much below 3v. 2 cellog 8's would make the monitoring easier. After the interverter turns itself off because it has reached 48v, measure the voltage of each of the 16 parallel groups and write it down. Then charge up to 54v and take a note of each group of 16 while not much current is going into the battery. Groups with a higher low voltage and higher high voltage need some energy removed. Groups with lower low voltage and lower high voltage need some energy added. Lower low voltage and higher high voltage leave. Same with higher low voltage and lower high voltage. Discharge the bank to 48v again and do you cell group energy adjustments. When you have your system running you could adjust float and bulk. If your battery is usually full, then lower float to 53.7 and see how it goes.
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Post by xenonhost » Thu, 04 May 2017, 22:12

And how to add energy for groups with low voltage and remove for the ones with high?

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Post by solamahn » Thu, 04 May 2017, 22:57

I use a lab power supply to add energy and a 100m roll of cable to remove. It would also be nice to group your 3 cells so that the total Ah capacity was very similar but it would require a lot of effort.
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Post by paulvk » Fri, 05 May 2017, 03:16

I now have the ESR meter and Howards 4 caps
They measure close to 2700uF on my capacitance meter and between 0.026 to 0.024 ohms on the ESR meter.
Now the question is are they really 3300uF very strange they all measure very close to 2700uF , my meter is home made but is accurate.
Will be interesting to see what I get for the ones in my inverter but this may take a couple of weeks.

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Post by coulomb » Fri, 05 May 2017, 04:21

paulvk wrote: Now the question is are they really 3300uF very strange they all measure very close to 2700uF , my meter is home made but is accurate.

I think it may be because 3300 - 20%(3300) = 2640 μF, so 2700 is just over the -20% lower tolerance limit for capacitors this size. I think that perhaps they can control the capacitance way better than when the standard tolerance was set at ±20%, so they can save material by aiming near the lower end of the tolerance range. Evil, but legal.

I've sometimes noticed that capacitors read low, and often near the low end of their tolerance range.

Of course, it could be that they all suffered a reduction in capacitance from new, along with an increase in ESR that contributed to the failure. I note that the 2013 originals and replacements are supposed to be 15 and 17 mΩ respectively, and you measured 24-26 mΩ. I'm guessing that the increase in ESR (25/16 = 1.56) could be a problem.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by Ian60D » Fri, 05 May 2017, 06:09

solamahn wrote: With 3 4048's in single phase parallel, you have a pool of 12kw to run all your single phase appliances on and will not overload until your demand exceeds 12kw. If you are running a 3 phase appliance, then you have to have the 4048's setup for 3 phase. If you only have single phase appliances and have the 4048's set up for 3 phase, then it is easier to overload a phase because now you have 3 pools of 4kw so if a phase demand exceeds 4kw, you have an overload situation. Your utility or generator supply being either single phase or 3 phase also requires your 4048's to be programmed the same way.
I am installing 2 4048V in single phase parallel at the moment. 30 x 300w panels and 16 x 700Ah Lifepo4


So If I spread my single phase loads (which are generally small) across the phases then I should be OK?
Do the pips handle a load, less than 4kw, on one phase but not on the others OK?
No good running it all in single phase as I need 3 phase for my machines. ie I have a mix of 3 phase and single phase loads.
Thanks for the info
Cheers Ian

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Post by solamahn » Fri, 05 May 2017, 12:17

Yes. If you can spread your single phase loads across each of the 3 phases without ever overloading any phase then you will be ok.
The problem I had on the particular job I am referring to had 3 air conditioners which I allocated one to each phase but I could not control what was connected to the GPO's. I ran 3 circuits for the GPO's and spread them out as best as I could. In the end I changed to single phase and connected a single phase 15kva generator which was also on site and set the utility battery charging to 10A per inverter.
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Post by Ian60D » Sat, 06 May 2017, 00:57

Thanks for you advice Solamahn. Image
Cheers Ian

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Post by JvdSpoel » Wed, 10 May 2017, 03:06

Hi all,

Just a quick question about the charger of the Axpert inverter. Anybody experienced any issues with the charger - hardware for example ripple which might damaged batteries, or is this nonsense?

Was talking to a supplier who said that they found that their batteries was damaged by the inverters charger. (AGM) Personally I have not experienced it but got a client who's batteries seems to have failed after 2 years.

Kind Regards,
Johan
   
JPS

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Post by coulomb » Wed, 10 May 2017, 19:00

JvdSpoel wrote: Anybody experienced any issues with the charger - hardware for example ripple which might damaged batteries, or is this nonsense?
I've not heard of problems with ripple. I would think that batteries wouldn't care much about ripple, but that's just a gut feeling.
Was talking to a supplier who said that they found that their batteries was damaged by the inverters charger. (AGM) Personally I have not experienced it but got a client who's batteries seems to have failed after 2 years.
Well, there is the documented charging bug, where batteries can end up not getting charged fully a lot of the time, despite available solar energy. Chronic undercharging could shorten the life of any battery, particularly lead acid types. Our patched firmware fixes this charging bug. So far, I see no sign of the manufacturer fixing their code, and ironically it's a very simple fix.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, PIP-4048MS inverter, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by paulvk » Thu, 11 May 2017, 01:07

The problem I see all the time is the poor understanding of how sealed lead acid batteries are to be charged and discharged.
Most people think they can treat them the same as flooded batteries so they charge and discharge at too high currents drying them out.
I would be wanting to know the size of the batteries in amper hours and the settings on the inverter for charging.
Note to use the full power rating of one 4000 watt inverter you would need more than 800Ah of sealed lead acid battery.

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 11 May 2017, 03:36

I have a question regarding the AC to DC charging from the PIP4048. Today was playing around with my later model PIP unit that has the upgraded on board AC/DC charger limits.

I had AC input wired to my 8kva generator to test it battery charging at 60A output. What I found was that it loaded up the generator slowly ramping up the charge current but when it got to about 40A just dropped back and started from zero again and repeated this process.

I then set the AC charge limit to just 30A max and it slowly increased the charge amps up and maintained 30A steady and was happy with that.

So I wired the generator back to my other Selectronic inverter/charger and set the charge limit to 100A and it had no trouble at all loading the generator to 100A and charging at over 5000w.

I wired the gen back to the PIP and dug around in the setting of the PIP to try and find a reason why I couldn't get anywhere near the full AC/DC charge potential out of the PIP but didn't have any success.

It was really just a reason to burn some 2 year old fuel and splash some oil around the generator motor as the generator doesn't really get used. Though I do feel a little ripped off that the new pip was limiting charge to just 30A.

Kurt.

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Post by weber » Thu, 11 May 2017, 03:50

Hi Kurt,
Try setting parameter 03 ("AC input voltage range") to "APL", not "UPS".
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