PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by solamahn » Sun, 25 Dec 2016, 23:58

No. Main pcb. Old and new type. SCC pcb. Old and new type
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Post by solamahn » Mon, 26 Dec 2016, 00:28

What does automatic do
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Post by Tejota » Mon, 26 Dec 2016, 01:59

solamahn wrote: What does automatic do


The same as previous firmwares.
32 param is only setup if param 5 is in USE mode.

Time in 32 param is to equalization batt. If you want to equalizer batt bank manually you can set up param 5 to USE, param 26 to equal voltage and param 32 to time to equal voltage.
Of course param 1 to Uti to constant equal. voltage.

At the end manual equalization you must restore normal param to bulk voltage.

I mean 32 param is to manual equalization when you set up time.

[ Edit Coulomb: removed earlier edit. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Wed, 28 Dec 2016, 04:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by paulvk » Mon, 26 Dec 2016, 02:55

The 38 param is important if you have it plugged into a utility supply with an earthed neutral as it disconnects the utility neutral when in inverter mode so you need to connect one to its neutral output but when it switches to utility you need to remove that earth so you do not have two earths on the neutral.
I sent them a long explanation and links to other manufactures and rules here & other countries to show them why they need this.

Note other units made here do not switch the neutral which is ok if its hard wired.

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 26 Dec 2016, 22:52

paulvk wrote: I sent them a long explanation and links to other manufactures and rules here & other countries to show them why they need this.

Good to know that they are willing to change the firmware [ Edit: and perhaps the hardware ] if the argument and need is clear enough. Good on you for doing that.
Last edited by coulomb on Mon, 26 Dec 2016, 11:53, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
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Post by joaquinsfy » Wed, 28 Dec 2016, 06:02

Sorry, if this question is too silly... i spend a lot of time looking for the answer and i can't find it.

I have a new PIP4048MS, and i want just test it without batteries and without PV input, i connected 220v AC input, and when i press the button to power on, nothing happens, it's normal?

Thanks guys.

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Post by coulomb » Wed, 28 Dec 2016, 18:41

joaquinsfy wrote: Sorry, if this question is too silly... i spend a lot of time looking for the answer and i can't find it.
It confuses me too.
I have a new PIP4048MS, and i want just test it without batteries and without PV input, i connected 220v AC input, and when i press the button to power on, nothing happens, it's normal?

That's about right. The processor is actually running when there is power from either or both utility or PV, but for whatever reason it doesn't turn the display on.

The firmware actually checks if the battery reads under 30.0 V, and if so it sets a variable called g_uwStartupWithoutBattery. But all that seems to do is to make sure the machine runs in bypass mode (if it's a single machine, parameter 28 is SiG). So you might hear a faint click from the relay.

The best way to test it without having to build a battery and fuses and all that is to use a dual 30 V current limiting power supply, with each half in series, set to around 25 V per half (the total needs to be at least 36.0 V). Use this on the battery terminals to allow the LCD to come on. Alas, many people don't have one of these laying around, and they are a bit expensive (~ $200) to buy just to test the machine.

I agree that it's frustrating, and I don't know why they do this.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
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160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
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Post by joaquinsfy » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 00:48

@coloumb, of course, you are right, i use a battery 48vdc (13s4p 18650 ) and the display turns on, and the PIP works, first step acomplish with your help, thanks.

Now, i will read again the 58 pages, to know what kind of firmware i will need to charge my 18650 powerwall, 14S80P 200aH, Thanks again and Happy New Year

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Post by rinaldoparaipan » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 11:05

Tejota wrote:
solamahn wrote: New firmware 72.70 has 2 extra programs. 32 and 38. Anyone know what they do


32 param is bulk charging time. Options: Automatic (default) or time (5-900 minutes)

That is a good information.It seems that we had a good feed-back to our emails sent to MPP Solar.We asked them to include that parameter.
Unfortunately, my last inverters installed has 72.60 CPU version.
I will try an upgrade. Image Image

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Post by Tejota » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 12:05

rinaldoparaipan wrote:
Tejota wrote:
solamahn wrote: New firmware 72.70 has 2 extra programs. 32 and 38. Anyone know what they do


32 param is bulk charging time. Options: Automatic (default) or time (5-900 minutes)

That is a good information.It seems that we had a good feed-back to our emails sent to MPP Solar.We asked them to include that parameter.
Unfortunately, my last inverters installed has 72.60 CPU version.
I will try an upgrade. Image Image
Have you got 72.70 firmware to upgrade?

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Post by coulomb » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 13:44

joaquinsfy wrote: Now, i will read again the 58 pages, to know what kind of firmware i will need to charge my 18650 powerwall, 14S80P 200aH

Sounds painful! I would say you need the lead-acid patched firmware, using custom voltages of course (parameter 05, battery type = USE). The lead-acid patch should really be called the "non-LiFePO₄" patch, but it doesn't fit on the display as nicely as Pb Image

As Weber has noted. the essential difference is that LiFePO₄ has the very flat voltage versus SOC curve, and practically every other chemistry has a wider variation of voltage with SOC.

But perhaps your machine is new enough to have the 72.70 DSP firmware, and maybe they've fixed the charging bug by now. You can find your DSP firmware revision by powering up the LCD and cycling to the U1 display page.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
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Post by lopez » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 14:11

Just wanted to know how much power the PIP4048MS draws from the grid?

EDITED: under no load? just trying to find out how many kwh/day it imports from the grid just from simply connecting to the grid but not using it to power the house load. Does anybody know? Thanks.
Last edited by lopez on Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 07:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by coulomb » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 15:32

Have you got 72.70 firmware to upgrade?

I don't, and I for one would be interested in any pointers.
Last edited by coulomb on Fri, 30 Dec 2016, 05:56, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by coulomb » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 15:48

lopez wrote: Just wanted to know how much power the PIP4048MS draws from the grid?

Worst case, it could be bypassing 40 A and utility charging 60 A @ 55 V with 220 V utility, so that's 40 + 15 = 55 A. I think it's safe to say that this combination is unusual, so 6 mm^2 cable via a 40 A breaker should be sufficient.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by lopez » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 18:17

Sorry Coulomb, I meant under no load. How much power it would draw from the grid without the bypass being active.
Last edited by lopez on Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 07:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lopez » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 19:15

coulomb wrote: As Weber has noted. the essential difference is that LiFePO₄ has the very flat voltage versus SOC curve, and practically every other chemistry has a wider variation of voltage with SOC.


By data logging I created a graph (using Excel) of SoC vs volts for a 48V, 5.6kwh Li-NCM battery pack using 18650 cells. The curve is very linear and an accurate SoC can be attained simply by reading the battery volts. Unlike Lifepo4.

Li-NCM 18650 cells GRAPH - SoC vs volts
Last edited by lopez on Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 08:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by coulomb » Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 19:25

lopez wrote: I meant under no load. How much power it would draw from the grid without the bypass being active.

I would assume zero, while there was enough PV to cover the loads and ~50 W of losses. Otherwise, the ~50 W of losses. But I'm not sure about the priority. The processor and control electronics have diodes to allow power from the battery or utility. PV power always goes to the battery, so as long as there is 50 W of PV power, it will supply the losses. Which one of utility or batter takes the load when there is no PV depends on the relative voltages.

[ Edit: but if utility charging, it could of course go up to 60 A x 60 V + losses, perhaps 3700 W. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Thu, 29 Dec 2016, 08:34, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by rinaldoparaipan » Fri, 30 Dec 2016, 03:08

Have you got 72.70 firmware to upgrade?

Not yet, I'll send a mail to MPP Solar

[ Edited Coulomb: repaired formatting ]
Last edited by coulomb on Fri, 30 Dec 2016, 02:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by KG666 » Sun, 01 Jan 2017, 05:30

hoi,

i'am new here (from belgium , new to off-grid) and have read almost the 60pages, what is intressting is the acid new firmware.. but i have a problem (i think)

my inverter (pip4048MSD , mppsolar):
Image
my inverter is from 2016-04


i think this is my firmware (yes?):
Image

why are you all talking about 72.40 or .60 or 70? do i have 75.10??

i'am confused

someone has a changelog of this one?
save to go back to coulomb firmware?

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 01 Jan 2017, 14:58

KG666 wrote: i'am new here (from belgium , new to off-grid)
Hi and welcome.
and have read almost the 60pages
Well done.
my inverter is from 2016-04

i think this is my firmware (yes?):
Yes, you have firmware version 75.10.
why are you all talking about 72.40 or .60 or 70? do i have 75.10??
Interesting. Well, most of us have the single MPPT models. Yours is a Dual MPPT model (PIP-4048 MSD), with the 120 A of solar charging (ours are 60 A, and I think models from a few years ago had less than that). There were a few changes in 72.60 that accommodated the multiple MPPT models (there is also a triple MPPT version, and they seem to be making provision for future models as well).

I have to admit I was surprised that there weren't more changes to handle the multiple MPPTs. Now it looks like models that actually have the multiple MPPTs come with a different firmware than the single MPPT models. Now that this is mentioned, perhaps SolaMahn or another user has mentioned this already.

This brings up an important point. With the patched firmware (both types), we have demonstrated a fix one major problem (the inability to charge properly) and several minor ones (many thresholds are not lithium suitable). The fact that many people are using or asking about this firmware indicates that there is a genuine need, it's not just a few isolated users having a problem due to some unusual environment or other detail. We can't keep patching more and more versions, and we're at the mercy of the manufacturer for supplying the raw materials that we need to generate the patch.

So I think it's time to get the manufacturer to incorporate the main fixes into the official firmware. Others have demonstrated that the manufacturer is willing to listen to users' needs and incorporate them into new firmware, so it's a matter of setting up communications with them to make this happen.
someone has a changelog of this one?
I've never seen a change log of the firmware. It would be good to have, and most software (firmware is software that is stored in hardware, so it's still software) have change logs.
save to go back to coulomb firmware?

No, it's almost certainly not safe to use a 72.XX based firmware (patched or not) in a machine that comes with 75.XX firmware. The first two digits are the major version numbers, which when changed usually indicates a major change with some compatibility loss. At minimum, I'd expect that you would not be able to see the two MPPTs' icons on the LCD screen. It's possible that they have a completely different LCD display, so the screen may make no sense at all.

Plus, until the manufacturer releases the 75.10 update files, it won't be possible to go back to the original software, in case there is any sort of problem. For whatever reason, it's getting harder to find these software update files.
Last edited by coulomb on Tue, 03 Jan 2017, 04:22, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by KG666 » Sun, 01 Jan 2017, 18:10

okidokie coulomb, thats as clear as it can be ;)
thanks for the post! i will not try to "downgrade" to yours, hope that the "acid bug" is not for my version...

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Post by solamahn » Mon, 02 Jan 2017, 15:48

4048mst that i installed at Inauaia village in Mekeo uses 75 00 for U1 and 01 01 for U2 - U4 for a 12/15 manufacture date. Works really good
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Post by Solar Junky » Tue, 03 Jan 2017, 11:58

Happy new year to all!!!!!!

Found one of my comm boards is bad on my older unit, so have not been able to do the firmware update...

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Post by KG666 » Mon, 09 Jan 2017, 01:53

hoi,

I have an other question,

what would be beter for the pip4048MSD?

you can have 145v VOC and 60A max input current, so

2 panels in serial and than 4 parallel? (130v / 26A)
or all in parallel?

every panel is VOC : 65v and 6.58A Isc (333wp) (8 panels on one string, i have 2 string inputs and so i have 16 panels of 333wp)

i want to have the max to load my 840ah acid battery

grtz kristof

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 09 Jan 2017, 03:28

KG666 wrote: every panel is VOC : 65v and 6.58A Isc (333wp)

You have not stated what the Vmpp voltage or Impp current is. I'll guess the Impp at 6.0 A; in that case the Vmpp is 333/6 = 55.5 V. This is less than the battery voltage at the end of bulk charging. You need at least 1 V more than the battery voltage from the panels. So you'll definitely need at least 2S (two panels in series for each string).

Hopefully your panels when cold (I imagine Belgium gets pretty cold) won't have a combined Voc over 145 V. But you definitely can't go 3S at any temperature.

So your only option is 2S, so 2S4P for each MPPT.

[ Edit: Vmppt -> Vmpp . ]
Last edited by coulomb on Mon, 09 Jan 2017, 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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