PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

Thanks, Weber. I've added the above link to the index.
friendnb2 wrote: Sun, 31 Jan 2021, 05:44 I made default settings using Watchpower and see- my original firmware is 74.10, not 72.20!! Is it possible that default setting made this change of firmware?
No, firmware version numbers are burned into the firmware. A few models have firmware that can run in different modes, e.g. a 48 V and a 24 V model could use the same firmware, and change "identities" by reading a voltage on a pin at start-up. But I don't believe that the 74.XX and 72.XX series ever merged like this.

The 72.20 firmware, and all 72.XX since about 2016 (there is version number overlap :evil: ) are for PF1 64 V.
The 74.40 firmware, and all 74.XX versions, are for PF1 58.4 V.
So the difference between these two is the maximum battery voltage, and this is related to a difference in the hardware: the transformer turns ratio is different. There are constants in the firmware directly related to the transformer turns ratio, so it's important to get the right firmware version.
Or I was blind when I read it first time.
Confirmation bias perhaps? I can't say. Unfortunately, some models don't reveal their "64-voltness" by something as obvious as saying so on the big sticker on the side with other important information (such as the colour of the case, sheesh). Some (most?) have "64" near the end of the model number, if they are a 64-V model. You could find out for sure by checking the waveform of the output at low battery voltages; see this post. Or maybe find a photo on the web of the 64 V version your model, and finding that it has "64" in the model number (where yours doesn't). It's sad that they indicate the 58.4 V models (which suit most 48 V nominal batteries much better) by the absence of a number, and that absence isn't always proof that you have a 58.4 V model.
Anyway, is patched fw for this case 74.40e? Shall I use it instead old 74.10?
Yes, if you're sure that your machine is a 58.4 V model (e.g. perhaps you recall that you could never get any battery voltage settings past that value, or you find no clipping with a 47 V battery), then you need to reflash to a 74.XX firmware, and yes 74.40e is the fully patched firmware (feature equivalent to 72.20e) for this series.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by friendnb2 »

Hallo boys, at first, many thanks for helping me!
When I changed patch firmware to 74.40, flashing was going well and successful without any problems.
The main reason why I wanted to do that flashing, is because I have small ("small") issue vith inverter and hoped flashing to newer firmware will help.
Unfortunately did not.
The issue I posted in "IP inverter repair and hardware..", hopefully it is better then to be here.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by viden82 »

Hi, I'm new to the forum. I have a 5048MS PIP from 2017 (basic version of the processor 74.10), yesterday I received a 5048MS 64V (72.40). A parallel map also arrived. Will it be a problem that they have different firmware? Please help. Thanks in advance .
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

viden82 wrote: Wed, 03 Feb 2021, 03:14 Hi, I'm new to the forum. I have a 5048MS PIP from 2017 (basic version of the processor 74.10), yesterday I received a 5048MS 64V (72.40). A parallel map also arrived. Will it be a problem that they have different firmware?
It is if you intend to parallel them. 64V models can't parallel with non-64V (58.4V) models. The extra voltage setting options needed by the 64V models means that the CAN packets they use are not compatible with 58.4V CAN packets, so they have different paralleling constants, so they can't be paralleled.

It's terrible support for the older models, especially from MPPSolar, who refuse to carry 58.4V models if a 64V model exists. If you want to parallel your present two inverters, you'll have to sell one, carefully select its replacement, and you might still need to update the firmware on one of them.

Edit: see Parallel compatibility of various firmwares.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk »

coulomb wrote: Wed, 03 Feb 2021, 06:33 If you want to parallel your present two inverters, you'll have to sell one, carefully select its replacement, and you might still need to update the firmware on one of them.
I have been told that people are looking for the older inverters to make parallel sets so they may fetch reasonable money second hand.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by teba »

Hi there!

I have a question about behavior of the inverter depending on the PBCV (battery voltage back to utlity / 12) and PSDV (battery cut off voltage / 29) voltages and the availability of the utility.

Will the inverter run when no utility/grid voltage is available and the battery voltage drops between PBCV and PSDV?

PSDV < battery voltage < PBCV
47.6V < 48.0V < 48.7 V

I know I could thest this, but my battery voltage is above PBCV right now.

Thanks
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

teba wrote: Sat, 06 Feb 2021, 17:26 Will the inverter run when no utility/grid voltage is available and the battery voltage drops between PBCV and PSDV?
Yes.
PSDV < battery voltage < PBCV
47.6V < 48.0V < 48.7 V
Those are too close for non-fully-patched firmware. With those figures, your effective back-to-grid voltage will be 49.6 V (factory firmware).

See FAQ #1.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by teba »

Hi coulomb,

I use your patched firmware for LFP batteries. So the values would work, when I understood it correctly.

The reason I ask is, I want the batteries not to drop below 25% when the grid is available to have some energy left in the case the grid becomes unavailable (kind of UPS mode).
Batt voltage of 48.7V means around 25% SOC of Pylontech US2000 batteries which can be discharged down to 10% (nearly 47.6V).

Thanks
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

teba wrote: Sat, 06 Feb 2021, 23:46 I use your patched firmware for LFP batteries. So the values would work, when I understood it correctly.

Yes, since you have more than 0.5V gap between the relevant thresholds, the values should work as expected.
The reason I ask is, I want the batteries not to drop below 25% when the grid is available to have some energy left in the case the grid becomes unavailable (kind of UPS mode).
Yes, that should work.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by teba »

Great!
Thanks.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Cactus »

Hi all,

It's been a while since I had anything to say around here until now.

As I posted some time ago I have a rather unusual 4Kva/4Kw PF1 58.4v version of these inverters (MKS 4K-48) running firmware version 54.10 that I populated with the missing mosfets (making it physically capable of 5Kva/5Kw) when I repaired it a few years back.

I was fortunate enough to purchase a broken (error 9) 5Kva/5Kw PF1 58.4v Mecer SOL-I-AX-5M firmware version 74,10 which was built only a few months later than my 4K unit making it almost the same except for a slightly later revision main PCB. I'm in the process of repairing the 5K unit but took the opportunity to first update the firmware to Coulomb and Weber's patched version 74.40e, I then put the updated control card into my 4K machine to check if it would work properly and I'm happy to report that it works perfectly. I then proceeded to update my 4K (firmware version 54.10) units firmware to version 74.40e and it too works perfectly. The reason I did the update in such a round about manner was for fear of bricking the inverter and not having a fallback plan.

The lesson learned here is that firmware version 54.10 machines can be upgraded to patched firmware 74.40e in my experience.

Regards Luke.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

Cactus wrote: Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 00:20 The lesson learned here is that firmware version 54.10 machines can be upgraded to patched firmware 74.40e in my experience.
Interesting, thanks for the post. I worry however whether the 4 kW model can handle 5 kW through the transformer.

But you have a 4 kW and a 5 kW more or less side by side; can you compare the dimensions of the two transformers, please? If they're the same, then it looks like the fewer MOSFETs really is the only difference. Could you also check the ratings of the IGBTs? It may be that they were able to use lower current devices in the 4 kW model. I suspect that the four IGBTs at the higher voltage end of the DC-DC converter have higher specifications in the PF1.0 models than in PF0.8 models (the latter only need to pass about 4 kW, even when supporting 5 kVA via the full bridge IGBTs.

It seems crazy to release a model that is missing only 4 ≈AUD8 devices, but maybe they did.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Cactus »

Indeed the transformers look to be physically the same size, short of completely stripping the 4kw unit to measure it I'm going to guess that it's the same.

The only difference I can actually see is that the heat sinks on the 5kw unit are slightly wider (beefier) above the flat plane where the mosfet's and IGBT's mount on to them, I believe this has more to do with the later revision main PCB (the 4Kw being an -01G vs the 5Kw -02G) as an older 5Kw unit I repaired some time ago for a friend had the same size heat sinks as my 4kw as far as I could tell.

The original parts in the 4Kw are as follows:
Mosfets Q13,Q18,Q23,Q11,Q17,Q20,Q12,Q22,Q21,Q26,Q25,Q14 Were IRFB3077ZPBF (all replaced with SUP70040E)
IGBT's Q27,Q28,Q29,Q30 Were IRGP4063DPBF (all replaced with IRGP4066DPBF)
IGBT Q32 (Q31 does not exist on this PCB) STW45NM60 I think, it's been a few years since I worked on it (Replaced with IRGP4066DPBF)

I imagine it's cheaper to use a common part rather than have a special (lower rated) part for the few lower spec units built?
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by ThomasHaller »

Hi all,
Need some help again:
I have 4 PIP5048 attached to my 14S 58V 18650 powerwall.
1st unit is in 220V single unit mode and has a 145V MPPT charge controller. This in operation since 3 years now and every morning ist starts charging my powerwall from Solar (Mode SBU).
Now I added 3 more 5048 units (with PWM charge controllers, 105V max) to produce 11kW 3phase 380V for rapid EV charging. I had no solar attached to the 3phase units so far. All works fine.

This weekend I mounted 4 flexible Solar panels 70W each to a wall of the house to capture low standing evening sun (and to see if these super cheap panels do actually work)
I connected them to PV input of phase1 PIP.
Unit shows 90V on input, but no charging of my battery starts ....
I have checked with modes SBU and SOL ...
I tried parameter 30 on ALL and on ONE.
No power transferred to battery ...

If I connect the 90V from the 4S flexible solar string to the input of PIP 1 (220V single unit, MPPT), charging starts immediately.
If I connect the string to a standalone 30$ PWM charge controller it also charges battery with 4 Amps.

Now my questions:
When having PIP units in 3phase mode, can I still use the inbuilt charge controllers ?
Can I connect independent sets of panels to each of the 3 units ?
Or do I need to connect the same PV array in parallel to all PIPs PV input and effectively make the 3 charge controller one big one ?
Or is there a lower power threshold to get the PWM started (is 280W 90V not enough)?

Any thoughts welcome !

Thx in advance for any suggestions,
Thomas
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

ThomasHaller wrote: Mon, 01 Mar 2021, 01:31 This weekend I mounted 4 flexible Solar panels 70W each to a wall of the house to capture low standing evening sun (and to see if these super cheap panels do actually work)
I connected them to PV input of phase1 PIP.
Unit shows 90V on input, but no charging of my battery starts ....
I have checked with modes SBU and SOL ...
I tried parameter 30 on ALL and on ONE.
No power transferred to battery ...
You will definitely want setting 30 set to ONE, when you only have one inverter-charger connected to PV. Though this might only have effect when using SOL output source priority.
What about setting 16, Charger Source Priority? Though I think all settings would allow solar charging.
When having PIP units in 3phase mode, can I still use the inbuilt charge controllers ?
I don't know the PWM models well, but I can't see why not, and I'd certainly expect that you could.
Can I connect independent sets of panels to each of the 3 units ?
Yes. They don't have to be the same power, and you can leave some completely unconnected.
Or do I need to connect the same PV array in parallel to all PIPs PV input and effectively make the 3 charge controller one big one ?
No. It's probably not such a huge bad on your model, but on some other models, this would cause big problems. Like shorting out mains (via some internal rectifiers).
Or is there a lower power threshold to get the PWM started (is 280W 90V not enough)?
Again, I don't know, but I can't see why. PWM just connects the panels across the battery, after the solar charge controller connects. I assume that you've been careful with PV polarity.

Are the three PWM inverters perhaps clones?

Are the three inverters supplied with paralleling cards?

Did you try connecting the 90 V PV to the other inverter-chargers? It's not clear to me whether the one showing P1 is always the "master" as far as charging is concerned (the master inverter calls the shots for all of them). It should be able to co-ordinate charging from slaves...

Anyone else running three-phase care to comment about PV charging?
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by ThomasHaller »

coulomb wrote: Mon, 01 Mar 2021, 09:48
ThomasHaller wrote: Mon, 01 Mar 2021, 01:31 This weekend I mounted 4 flexible Solar panels 70W each to a wall of the house to capture low standing evening sun (and to see if these super cheap panels do actually work)
I connected them to PV input of phase1 PIP.
Unit shows 90V on input, but no charging of my battery starts ....
I have checked with modes SBU and SOL ...
I tried parameter 30 on ALL and on ONE.
No power transferred to battery ...
You will definitely want setting 30 set to ONE, when you only have one inverter-charger connected to PV. Though this might only have effect when using SOL output source priority.
What about setting 16, Charger Source Priority? Though I think all settings would allow solar charging.
When having PIP units in 3phase mode, can I still use the inbuilt charge controllers ?
I don't know the PWM models well, but I can't see why not, and I'd certainly expect that you could.
Can I connect independent sets of panels to each of the 3 units ?
Yes. They don't have to be the same power, and you can leave some completely unconnected.
Or do I need to connect the same PV array in parallel to all PIPs PV input and effectively make the 3 charge controller one big one ?
No. It's probably not such a huge bad on your model, but on some other models, this would cause big problems. Like shorting out mains (via some internal rectifiers).
Or is there a lower power threshold to get the PWM started (is 280W 90V not enough)?
Again, I don't know, but I can't see why. PWM just connects the panels across the battery, after the solar charge controller connects. I assume that you've been careful with PV polarity.

Are the three PWM inverters perhaps clones?

Are the three inverters supplied with paralleling cards?

Did you try connecting the 90 V PV to the other inverter-chargers? It's not clear to me whether the one showing P1 is always the "master" as far as charging is concerned (the master inverter calls the shots for all of them). It should be able to co-ordinate charging from slaves...

Anyone else running three-phase care to comment about PV charging?
Thx a lot for your response Coulomb !
I found the root cause: my impatience! :?
I left the string attached last night an turned off all 3phase inverters.
This morning I went into our cellar .. and the one 3phase inverter with the string attached had the display lit up and shows charging :D :D

So it all works as I expected. Only strange thing is it does not start charging immediately after connection is made ... But I can live with that on a PIP for 350 US$ 8-)
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by ThomasHaller »

ThomasHaller wrote: Mon, 01 Mar 2021, 15:10
Thx a lot for your response Coulomb !
I found the root cause: my impatience! :?
I left the string attached last night an turned off all 3phase inverters.
This morning I went into our cellar .. and the one 3phase inverter with the string attached had the display lit up and shows charging :D :D

So it all works as I expected. Only strange thing is it does not start charging immediately after connection is made ... But I can live with that on a PIP for 350 US$ 8-)
I was celebrating too early. Under full sunlight the PWM charger switched off again and showed 92V on PV input while battery was on 54V.
Maybe the voltage delta is too high. Wasn't used to such limits with my MPPT unit ...
Trying with 3S solar string tomorrow.

At least that explains why it did not start charging yesterday.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

ThomasHaller wrote: Tue, 02 Mar 2021, 02:07 I was celebrating too early. Under full sunlight the PWM charger switched off again and showed 92V on PV input while battery was on 54V.
...
Trying with 3S solar string tomorrow.
I would not attempt 3S with the PWM solar charge controller! You'll have some 138V, which is well over the rated maximum of 105V. They must be using MOSFETs rated at low voltages, and could well be damaged by that sort of voltage. [ Edit: I was assuming 72-cell or 60-cell panels, which is not the case. Duh. ]

I note that PWM controllers are not well suited for modern 72 cell panels; their typical Vmp of 36V is too low to charge a 48V nominal battery, but two of them in series will see half the battery voltage each, which is about 25V. So most of the time they will be operating at a long way below the maximum power point, so production will be just a bit more than 25/36 = 70% of what you could get with a good MPPT controller. 60 cell panels would perform much better with these simple PWM controllers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by ThomasHaller »

coulomb wrote: Tue, 02 Mar 2021, 06:12
ThomasHaller wrote: Tue, 02 Mar 2021, 02:07 I was celebrating too early. Under full sunlight the PWM charger switched off again and showed 92V on PV input while battery was on 54V.
...
Trying with 3S solar string tomorrow.
I would not attempt 3S with the PWM solar charge controller! You'll have some 138V, which is well over the rated maximum of 105V. They must be using MOSFETs rated at low voltages, and could well be damaged by that sort of voltage.

I note that PWM controllers are not well suited for modern 72 cell panels; their typical Vmp of 36V is too low to charge a 48V nominal battery, but two of them in series will see half the battery voltage each, which is about 25V. So most of the time they will be operating at a long way below the maximum power point, so production will be just a bit more than 25/36 = 70% of what you could get with a good MPPT controller. 60 cell panels would perform much better with these simple PWM controllers.
Hi Coulomb,
I failed to mention that the panels are small 18V panels!
But without load it seems 4 of them in series make it up to above 93V.
Switching to 3S string, Vmax should stay below 70V max.
But thx for the tip regarding large panels attached to PWM!
Rgds,
Thomas
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Actual Firmaware for Steca Solarix PLI 5000-48

Post by free_otto »

Hy, i have a new
Steca Solarix PLI 5000-48 bought in January
with this Firmware: 72 40

Is it usefull to flash the patched one`s from here. ( 72.20e? / 72.40e?)
The behavior of the charging algorithm is sometimes crazy.
There is enough power from PV and the Battery is nearly full,
but the inverter still use power from grid.

Greetings, Chico
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by ThomasHaller »

ThomasHaller wrote: Tue, 02 Mar 2021, 13:36
coulomb wrote: Tue, 02 Mar 2021, 06:12
ThomasHaller wrote: Tue, 02 Mar 2021, 02:07 I was celebrating too early. Under full sunlight the PWM charger switched off again and showed 92V on PV input while battery was on 54V.
...
Trying with 3S solar string tomorrow.
I would not attempt 3S with the PWM solar charge controller! You'll have some 138V, which is well over the rated maximum of 105V. They must be using MOSFETs rated at low voltages, and could well be damaged by that sort of voltage.

I note that PWM controllers are not well suited for modern 72 cell panels; their typical Vmp of 36V is too low to charge a 48V nominal battery, but two of them in series will see half the battery voltage each, which is about 25V. So most of the time they will be operating at a long way below the maximum power point, so production will be just a bit more than 25/36 = 70% of what you could get with a good MPPT controller. 60 cell panels would perform much better with these simple PWM controllers.
Hi Coulomb,
I failed to mention that the panels are small 18V panels!
But without load it seems 4 of them in series make it up to above 93V.
Switching to 3S string, Vmax should stay below 70V max.
But thx for the tip regarding large panels attached to PWM!
Rgds,
Thomas
Resolved: was indeed a max PV voltage issue.
On an MPPT PIP you can go up to the max PV voltage of 145V without problem, if you go 1V above it switches off.
On a PWM PIP the charger disconnects much earlier than the specified Vmax of 105V. Disconnected at 92V (in my case 4S) and works now fine at 72V (3S).

Wishing you all very sunny days!
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Re: Actual Firmaware for Steca Solarix PLI 5000-48

Post by coulomb »

free_otto wrote: Tue, 02 Mar 2021, 19:33 Hy, i have a new
Steca Solarix PLI 5000-48 bought in January
with this Firmware: 72 40

Is it usefull to flash the patched one`s from here. ( 72.20e? / 72.40e?) 😔

Your inverter appears to be a 64V model, so the applicable fully patched firmware is 72.20e, not 74.40e.
The behavior of the charging algorithm is sometimes crazy.
There is enough power from PV and the Battery is nearly full,
but the inverter still use power from grid.
That sounds like a sudden heavy load is causing the inverter to switch to line mode. Could your battery be under-sized for your loads? Could your battery cables be too thin? If neither of these is the case, then hopefully the KettleKomp™ feature will help.
MG ZS EV 2021 April 2021. Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

ThomasHaller wrote: Wed, 03 Mar 2021, 02:32 On an MPPT PIP you can go up to the max PV voltage of 145V without problem, if you go 1V above it switches off.
I would not say "without problem". From 130V and above, it's been reducing its maximum power to protect itself, and by 145V, its absolute maximum voltage, the power has fallen to zero. Above 145V, permanent damage could occur.

Thanks for the undocumented information about the PWM solar charge controllers. It is fortunate indeed that you are using such low voltage panels. I can imagine a situation where two large panels is too high a voltage, and one panel would be too low for any charging to occur most of the time.

My apologies for not registering your panel voltage. On rereading your first post on this, you state that 4S produced about 90V, which should have alerted me. I guess I'm so used to 72-cell panels or the now less common 60-cell panels, or even more than 72 cells in some cases.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by nonlinear »

Hi Everyone,

I've only recently joined, but have been reading this forum for a long time now. There is a huge amount of useful information here and I've benefitted from it, thank you to all.

I've recently replaced my quite old 0.8pf inverters with the 1.0pf 5kW variant. The manufacture date shows mid-2020 which says to me they are relatively new. To put it mildly, the premature float bug is annoying me and I would like to utilise the firmware provided by @coulomb and others (which I have used to great effect on the older model). However, upon reviewing the factory firmware within the inverters I note that it reports as 74.50. I have not seen mention of any firmware revision beyond 74.40 on this forum. Thus my question: can I safely downgrade from 74.50 to 74.40e?

Any suggestions or experience from forum members would be appreciated.

Thanks.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

nonlinear wrote: Thu, 04 Mar 2021, 13:25 I've only recently joined,
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the kind words.
However, upon reviewing the factory firmware within the inverters I note that it reports as 74.50. I have not seen mention of any firmware revision beyond 74.40 on this forum. Thus my question: can I safely downgrade from 74.50 to 74.40e?
You can, but no-one knows what changes were made between 74.40 and 74.50 that you would be losing. If only there were release notes!
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