PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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vast
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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by vast » Tue, 22 Nov 2016, 13:14

Hi Coulomb.
I don't have mains power at all. I have a generator, but is not connected to the inverter. So, nothing is connected to the AC input.

I asked especially for menu #12 and #13. Initialy, I setup only menu for Bulk, Float and Low DC disconnect (#12 and 13 was default), but I observed that inverter start to warning beep when the voltage drop below 50V and was annoying for me. Then, I modified #12 to 48V and #13 to 50V and was much better.

Another point which I don't understand: warning beep stoped when the voltage is +4V over the #29 Low DC disconnect.


P.S. If I make grammar mistake, please forgive me and help me to improve my english.

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Post by paulvk » Tue, 29 Nov 2016, 02:40

Some observations of early cut off of bulk charge:
System 1 two PIPs 72.40 cuts off early on occasion
System 2 one PIP 52.30 cuts off early often
So they made improvements as I said before when the warranty runs out in Jan next year I will load the modded software.
Also got myself a Esmart 40A LCD MPPT Solar Charge Controller to play with looking to see if I can use it to add more solar to my units and I find that MPP are not the only ones using 63V capacitors, worse still 100V caps on the panel input , they rate the unit at 100v with 110v cut off yea thats going to work! Going to replace/move the 63v with the 100v and get some 150v or higher to replace the 100v ones, semiconductors 150 and 200 volt ok there.
If I can set the voltages not to go over 57v maybe it will be ok with the PIPs I will report on progress.

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Post by Tjadenw » Wed, 30 Nov 2016, 09:12

Hi

Eventually gave up on trying to figure out how to calibrate the 24 volt 3kva voltage seems like the 24 volt model can not be calibrated at all.

I kept a copy of the 24volt 3kva inverter with the 60 amp MPPT SCC
Think 0243 is the latest firmware, but this version still do not stay in absorb long enough.

PIP-MSX_2-3K_MAIN_0243.zip

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Post by Tejota » Fri, 09 Dec 2016, 11:11

Hi.

I have got this inverter:

Image

It was on 52.11 DSP and 1.22 SCC firmware.
It was updated on 72.60A lead acid DSP and 4.10 SCC without problems.

Every parameters can be modified with LCD buttons except 29 parameter ( cut dc volt battery). Watchpower is useless to modify this parm, of course.

Any explanation or solution?

Thanks in advanced.


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Post by weber » Fri, 09 Dec 2016, 17:33

Hi Tejota,

I have no explanation or solution for this, at present.

What value do you see for parameter 29?
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 10 Dec 2016, 02:22

Tejota wrote: Every parameters can be modified with LCD buttons except 29 parameter ( cut dc volt battery).

Any explanation or solution?

Is it possible that the value for this parameter before the firmware update was such that it would now be invalid?

For example, if it was set to 41.2 V, this was valid when the range was 40.0 - 48.0 V, but now the range is 44.0 - 52.0 V. This results in negative indexes internally, but the parameter value should display as normal, and as soon as the up or down buttons are pressed, it seems to me that the displayed value should snap to a limit (here 44.0 V, or if it somehow ended up over the new upper limit of 52.0 V, it should snap to that value). I've not tried this, and the code is somewhat convoluted, so I could be wrong.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by weber » Sat, 10 Dec 2016, 03:20

If Coulomb's explanation is correct, then a possible solution is to use Watchpower to set the Low DC cut-off voltage to something in the range 44.0 to 48.0. Watchpower should do that OK. It's only values outside that range that Watchpower cannot set when using 72.60A firmware.

If that fails, the next thing to try would be to restore the original 72.60 firmware, then set the Low DC cut-off voltage (param 29) to something in the range 44.0 to 48.0. You should also ensure the Back to utility voltage (param 12) is in the range 46 to 51 V. Then reload the patched firmware 72.60A.

One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Post by Tejota » Sat, 10 Dec 2016, 13:08

Problem solved: Param 29 is not configurable when you put AGM in param 5.

Why? I dont know.

If you put AGM in param 5, param 29 is automatically configured at 42V.

All of that occurs on every firmware (52.11 to 72.60A)

Would you change to USE mode instead AGM mode?

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Post by weber » Sat, 10 Dec 2016, 15:22

Tejota wrote: Problem solved: Param 29 is not configurable when you put AGM in param 5.
Ah yes. Well found. Params 26 and 27 (absorb and float voltages) aren't configurable then either. The same occurs when you put Fld in param 5.
Would you change to USE mode instead AGM mode?

Yes. But you must then make sure you have suitable values in Params 26, 27 and 29, for your AGM battery. There is no other difference between AGM, Fld and uSE.

Coulomb and I were foolishly considering the LiFePO4 version of the patched firmware, when you had clearly told us you were using the lead-acid version, which does not change the range of any parameter.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 11 Dec 2016, 15:59

paulvk wrote: I have noticed that my inverters seem to follow the mains frequency ...

Yes, but not the mains voltage. I suppose the ~ 20 V of difference (250 versus 230) is small compared to the up to ~480 V difference (250 + 230) if the inverter is opposite phase to the mains.

The synchronisation in frequency helps not only the internal switching of loads to AC input, but also my external contactor that switches loads to mains if the PIP output drops out. For the first such change, I didn't have the AC input breaker on, so it didn't sync, and the freezer did a cluck-a-da-clunk. From then on, with the AC input connected, there is not a murmur from the freezer, just a pleasing click from the switchboard, as it should be.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by joaquinsfy » Fri, 16 Dec 2016, 08:33

Hi,

My name is Joaquin Custodio, from Barcelona, Spain.

I'm working in an DIY PowerWall exactly like this www.hbpowerwall.com from Peter Matthews. following his path, i bought a pip-4048MS to use with de 14SP80 18650 lithium 200aH, Peter is using PCM60X to charge the packs using Solar.

After reading the 58 Pages about different firmware, i don't have a easy answer to my concern

Can i use the PIP-4048MS to charge the packs using AC from the utility?

Thanks and nice work on the firmware, i hope that i can add something valuable to this thread.


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Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Dec 2016, 04:57

joaquinsfy wrote: Hi,

My name is Joaquin Custodio, from Barcelona, Spain.
Hi, Joaquin, and welcome.
Can i use the PIP-4048MS to charge the packs using AC from the utility?
Sure, you can pump current into the battery from the utility AC input. As to whether it is safe or not to charge those 18650 cells, I don't know. Since you mention 14S, I assume that's a 4.2 V chemistry; my understanding is that these are not so trivial to charge safely. I think you need a temperature sensor to do it properly.

If Peter Matthews is using a PCM60X, then you essentially have one of those inside your PIP. The firmware can also turn the inverter around so that it charges the battery; during this time, the utility is also powering the loads. You can be charging from solar and utility at the same time. They do a pretty good job of getting the two chargers (utility and solar) to co-operate.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by lopez » Sat, 17 Dec 2016, 06:07

Thermal run-away is a safety concern. Safer to use Lifepo4.

18650 cell thermal runaway event.   

Battery University - Safety concerns of lithium ion.
Last edited by lopez on Fri, 16 Dec 2016, 19:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by rinaldoparaipan » Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 02:59

Joaquin did you think how to balance the elements?

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Post by joaquinsfy » Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 04:11

Hi Rinaldo

I'm still thinking about balancing, there are people that say it's needed a BMs, other people say it's not needed (jehu garcia) and talks about bottom balancing, another guys talk about top balancing, in my ignorance I can't understand why there so many criteria difference, but I will try to read and understand more before take a decisition.


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Post by Northland » Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 11:03

Both methods are bad, so I invented dynamic balancing

dynamic balancing of Lithium
Last edited by Northland on Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 00:05, edited 1 time in total.
My YouTube Channel DIY TESLA POWERWALL

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Post by joaquinsfy » Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 13:16


@Northland, i like the idea of your balancing, and i love your videos too.

Do you have plans to show how it's made your arduino bms?

Thanks for your work!

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Post by weber » Sun, 18 Dec 2016, 23:51

Northland, I note that the flat-in-the-middle voltage vs SoC curve doesn't apply to all lithium-ion chemistries. Only LiFePO4 has this feature.

The balancing method you describe is a good one, and can be applied to all chemistries, whether flat-in-the-middle or not. But you don't want to do it at both the top and the bottom. The cells will all have slightly different capacities, so balancing them at one end unbalances them at the other end. So in practice you would only do it near the top, for the same reasons of convenience you gave for other types of top vs bottom balancing. So in practice it would be a variety of top balancing.

An additional refinement, if you can do it, is to have your BMS control the current output of your charger, using a PI control loop, based on the voltage of your highest cell, so as to keep it from going above the chosen threshold (e.g. 3.6 V). Eventually the current will get backed off to whatever the cell-monitoring-unit can bypass. Then you wait until all are bypassing before terminating charge.

The important thing when using any kind of top balancing is to monitor the voltages of individual cells and stop discharge when any one goes below the chosen threshold (e.g. 2.5 V).

Another refinement is to compensate these thresholds based on the voltage drops and rises due to internal resistance as I described in a previous post in this thread. In other words, don't panic if the voltage of a cell is high, if it's purely due to it being charged at a high rate. And don't panic if the voltage of a cell is low, if it's purely due to it being discharged at a high rate.
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Post by Tejota » Mon, 19 Dec 2016, 11:10

weber wrote:
Tejota wrote: Problem solved: Param 29 is not configurable when you put AGM in param 5.
Ah yes. Well found. Params 26 and 27 (absorb and float voltages) aren't configurable then either. The same occurs when you put Fld in param 5.
Would you change to USE mode instead AGM mode?

Yes. But you must then make sure you have suitable values in Params 26, 27 and 29, for your AGM battery. There is no other difference between AGM, Fld and uSE.

Coulomb and I were foolishly considering the LiFePO4 version of the patched firmware, when you had clearly told us you were using the lead-acid version, which does not change the range of any parameter.


Ok.
Another problem with this firmware 72.60A lead-acid version: If I setup:
Param 1: sbu
Param 5: use
Param 12: 47
Param 26: 57
Param 27: 54
Param 29: 46
Inverter is shutdown with 49V in batt.   Why??

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Post by weber » Mon, 19 Dec 2016, 14:37

Tejota wrote:Ok.
Another problem with this firmware 72.60A lead-acid version: If I setup:
Param 1: sbu
Param 5: use
Param 12: 47
Param 26: 57
Param 27: 54
Param 29: 46
Inverter is shutdown with 49V in batt.   Why??


Because of param 29 (low voltage cut off) set to 46 V, the inverter shut off when the battery went below 46 V under load, for more than 10 seconds. After the inverter shut off, and so the load was removed, the battery voltage recovered to 49 V. But the battery must get to 4 V above param 29, i.e. 50 V before the inverter will come back on.

This is the same behaviour as the original firmware.
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Post by paulvk » Tue, 20 Dec 2016, 15:16

weber wrote:
Tejota wrote: This is the same behaviour as the original firmware.


Yes and all I wanted to do was boil the kettle!
It should be more like 10 min instead of 10 seconds.

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Post by kmh5147 » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 20:19

Hi All,

I just setup a pip4048 and connected 8 - 170ah PowerSafe 12v AGM Batteries(2 string), and I'm noticing something that seems a little odd. The inverter is currently only connected to charge the battery bank from utility, nothing is connected to the AC Output and I seem to be pulling 600 watts from the utility. I've connected to the inverters com-port and the battery appears to be completely charged. This sounds like quite a bit of consumption considering it should be in float mode. What do you guys think? Thank you in advance!


Image

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Post by weber » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 20:32

Hi kmh5147,

What is your battery voltage and current with the 600 watts going in?
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Post by kmh5147 » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 20:52

Hi weber! The voltage is 54.1 and the current 0.0a per my Comm connection.

Thanks,
Kevin

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Post by weber » Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:02

Is it the PIP LCD that's telling you you're pulling 600 watts?
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