PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Northland
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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Northland » Wed, 12 Oct 2016, 19:07

I am also in a discussion with a guy who must be one of the top 5 in the world re battery technology. He consults to SpaceX and Nasa. I asked him about the most efficient way to use lifepo4 with a secondary consideration being life. He suggests going to 17S, read below:

"I haven't tested the specific cells you are referencing .. and cells will vary .. even in the LiFePO4 family there are variations ... that having been said. The testing that I did showed of a different LiFePO4 cell .. showed maximum cycle efficiency at the lower SoC/SoE parts of the curve .. Bottom ~20% was about ~96.5% Energy cycle efficient , and about ~99.5% Coulomb Ah cycle efficient ... By the top ~20% it was down to about ~95% Energy cycle efficient , and about ~98.8% Coulomb Ah cycle efficient. However .. even the same cells under different conditions can also effect the results ... For Example .. Other research I've seen done showed a change of 0.2% more Coulomb Ah Cycle Efficient 99.8% vs 99.6% and simultaneously 3.6% less Energy Wh cycle efficient 95.6% vs 92% ... when the same LiFePO4 cell was cycled at 21A instead of 105A ... the higher rate increased the Coulumb Ah cycle efficinecy , but simultaneously decreased the Energy Wh Cycle efficiency. If you batteries behave like the one's I've tested .. 60.4v top end (CV portion) for 16s1p pack is making a choice to chase the last top tiny bits of available energy , and give up some Years & Cycles of service life to get it ... if that's what you want for your application is up to you. Exactly how much will depend on context ... for example .. how fast you reach that top CV point ... For example .. the cells I tested .. At a 3C (CC) charge rate ... the 3.50V point was only about ~80% SoC ... but the same 3.50V at a slower 2C charge rate was about ~90% SoC ... and the same 3.50V at a even slower C/2 (CC) rate was about ~96% SoC ... At the slower C-Rate (CC) charge rates you listed ... there is very little (less than 5%) to be gained from pushing the CV phase above 3.50v ... unless your intent is to try and skip or reduce the amount of time in the cv phase .. than a higher CC voltage is ok. Keep in mind ... the longer the amount of time .. the cells are held at a higher SoC/SoE ... the shorter the service life (years/cycles) ... but the trade off is that you have more available Wh or available energy to do useful / desired work. If your design needs the higher voltage up near ~60.4v ... than 17s1p would be better (at that CV point) for pack longevity (Years/Cycles) .. going to 18s1p @ 60.4v (CV phase) is too low (I think) of a per cell v ... I wouldn't go under 3.45 (3.40 at lowest) ... it's just a case of diminishing returns .. sure 3.35v (CV) from 18s1P would be 60.3V .. and that is closer to the middle .. and such .. and yes it would likely give more years/ cycles .. but now your whole pack is closer to the middle .. and the usable Wh of energy storage is closer to the middle .. etc .. 1 more cell from 16s1p @ 60.4v (~3.775v per cell) .. to 17s1P @ 60.4v (~3.55v per cell) .. that has I think .. a bigger (more worth) benefit to total service life (years / cycles) .. but at the same time , it gives up very little in terms of usable Wh of energy storage ... as long as you have a CV phase at that top ~60.4v .. and you are only doing the CC phase at the low C-Rates you listed .. and also assuming the pack won't be significantly cold or hot. Colder means less usable W of power , or Wh of energy storage , but more cycles and years ... Hotter means less years and cycles , but more W of power ,and Wh of energy storage .. usually around ~room temp is the middle ground .. and there are costs of keeping the battery colder than __ and warmer than _ ... exactly when and how much it's worth thermal management is again a pro and con choice."

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Post by paulvk » Wed, 12 Oct 2016, 23:41

I read a paper on lead acid and efficiency they found that at 80% charge the highest efficiency was achieved, they also found that with proper full charges at the correct times battery life was not to adversely affected.
I would like to read the same sort of tests of nickle cadmium pocket cells because what I have read so far is that by only using 15% battery life in excess of 25 years is achieved and there are batteries still in use at 50 years also I have read that there are no thermal run away problems, no memory and few deep discharges to 80% does not cause a great reduction in life.
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Post by Northland » Wed, 12 Oct 2016, 23:50

But they have the worst efficiency. Something like 2v charge and 1.4v nominal? Efficiency is #1 in my book

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Post by PGutti » Fri, 14 Oct 2016, 01:33

What tool is used for updateing the firmware? Watchpower does not have this option.

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Post by coulomb » Fri, 14 Oct 2016, 23:03

The tool for doing the update is part of the zip or rar file that has the update.

I should stop calling my patched firmware a patch; it's a complete patched firmware file. The official patches also include the patch tool, and instructions.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by Solar Junky » Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 05:50

Hey guys! Got two pip's going in the USA using a step down transformer & lifepo4 batteries. What float & charge voltage settings are you guys using for the lifepo4 cells?
this is my system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7OaZ3tzMxk



[ Edit Coulomb: added Tube tags ]
Last edited by coulomb on Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 03:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by lopezjm2001 » Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 15:00

I hope your battery cabinet is fire-proofed. I use 54.7v for bulk charge and 53.7v for float charge.

Image
Last edited by lopezjm2001 on Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 04:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Solar Junky » Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 15:56

Awesome Thanks!!!
Not fire-proofed made of wood.

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Post by weber » Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 15:58

Hi Solar Junky. Thanks for showing us your system. For 16 series 180 Ah LiFePO4 with one PIP and a 3.4 kW PV array (the "Black Monolith" mentioned earlier in this thread) we use:
Bulk/absorb voltage = 55.2 V (3.450 Vpc) (Param 26)
Float voltage            = 53.7 V (3.356 Vpc) (Param 27)
Low cutoff voltage   = 50.8 V (3.175 Vpc) (Param 29)

We also have a BMS that monitors individual cell voltages and controls contactors to disconnect the loads if any cell goes undervoltage or overtemperature while discharging, and disconnect the charging sources if any cell goes overvoltage or overtemperature or undertemperature while charging.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Post by Solar Junky » Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 19:11

Cool! Thanks!
Does that require your firmware for those settings?

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Post by Solar Junky » Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 19:14

What kind of BMS are you using??

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Post by weber » Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 20:14

It doesn't require our firmware to make those float and bulk/absorb settings, but it does requires our firmware to get the low cutoff voltage up that high. And our firmware is required to ensure that the PIP transitions between float and bulk/absorb modes in a sensible manner. Without our bug-fix it may never go up to the absorb voltage on charge (going directly from bulk to float), and it may never go back to bulk mode except after a very deep discharge.
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Post by Solar Junky » Sun, 16 Oct 2016, 15:05

Have not been able to update firmware can't seem to get the db9 cable working only the USB

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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 16 Oct 2016, 16:54

I have notices there has been a slight decrease in price of PIP inverters listed online through ebay.

Particularly when you take into account the Au exchange rate at the moment vs what they are asking. Not to mention the increased specs of inbuilt SCC to 4000w.

With the price of PV and product's like the PIP4048 going off grid is a no brainer.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Sun, 16 Oct 2016, 05:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 16 Oct 2016, 17:42

Solar Junky wrote: Have not been able to update firmware can't seem to get the db9 cable working only the USB

I've not done it, but you should be able to do the firmware update over USB much the same as over a DB9 connector. When the inverter's USB cable is plugged in to a computer, the computer should see it as a COM port (often a high COM number, perhaps COM10 or COM13 or higher). I believe it should appear in the drop down box labelled Serial, using the same ReflashTool.exe that is inside the firmware .rar or .zip file.

However, I seem to recall not being able to see the USB connection with an ordinary communications program like TeraTerm, so despite coming from the manufacturer, ReflashTool may not see it. ReflashTool seems to be quite old, and doesn't seem to have changed since USB ports have appeared on the 5 kVA models. Then again, the 24 V models have had USB ports for longer, and no DB9 ports, so maybe it will work after all.

Have you tried with the USB port?

Can you try using a different USB to serial adapter to connect to the DB9 cable, or a different computer? Weber has a collection of older laptops, and from memory one of them would not work with ReflashTool, despite working with other software using the same USB to serial adapter.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by weber » Sun, 16 Oct 2016, 17:46

I just tried doing a firmware update via the PIP's USB port. Nothing appears in the Serial Port menu of the Reflash tool. But then why would it, since it doesn't appear as a COM port in TeraTerm or the Device Manager either.
Last edited by weber on Sun, 16 Oct 2016, 07:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by weber » Sun, 16 Oct 2016, 18:08

Solar Junky wrote: What kind of BMS are you using??

We're using the open source LyteFyba BMS, which we're still developing.
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Post by andys » Sun, 16 Oct 2016, 18:37

Hi there,
I'm using 16 x 160Ah lifepo4, charging at 56.2V, and then my linux PC stops the charge every day when the charge current falls to 0.05C (8A) by resetting the float voltage to 54.0V. I call that full battery, even though its probably only 90% or 95%.

I'm using the BMS from zeva.com.au to monitor individual cell voltages and provide a state of charge meter.

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Post by PGutti » Mon, 17 Oct 2016, 00:08

Thank you Coulomb!
I did not realize or have not looked unto the rar files. Image Image Image

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Post by Solar Junky » Mon, 17 Oct 2016, 01:27

Thanks for your input!!!!! Have been trying to update firmware with USB no luck tried many times............. lol! I'm kinda obsessive compulsive! haha.. Contacted MPP Solar they told me firmware update only works with DB9 This Sucks for me as it was working with db9 on my home computer & laptop then one day just stopped working on both???????? tried every thing..... Even working with mpp solar for long time and they send me a USB to replace the db9 and it worked.... I bought the 2nd unit after thinking something was wrong with my first unit's DB9 output because how could it stop working on two computers?????? anyway after much time of trying different things. I'm at a loss......

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Post by Solar Junky » Mon, 17 Oct 2016, 01:41

Thanks for the bms info Awesome!
With your firmware can you set the ( Back to grid voltage ) Setting to a much higher setting 51v is a bit low would like 52.2 or 52.1 as the back to grid setting. can this be done with your firmware?

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Post by Solar Junky » Mon, 17 Oct 2016, 01:45

Andys Thanks!

That is one cool BMS system!

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 17 Oct 2016, 02:54

Solar Junky wrote: With your firmware can you set the ( Back to grid voltage ) Setting to a much higher setting 51v is a bit low would like 52.2 or 52.1 as the back to grid setting. can this be done with your firmware?

Yes. [ Edit: Actually, it's no. I was confused between battery disconnect and back to grid voltage; see Weber's post below. ]

From the download post:
5) The Battery Under Voltage Cutoff setting voltage range has been changed from 40-48 V to 44 to 52 V (i.e. 4 V has been added to the lower and upper limits).

The Battery Under Voltage Cutoff can only be set to whole volts, not tenths of a volt. It's just a limitation of using an LCD "menu" with just a few buttons.
Last edited by coulomb on Mon, 17 Oct 2016, 05:28, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by weber » Mon, 17 Oct 2016, 03:20

Solar Junky wrote: With your firmware can you set the ( Back to grid voltage ) Setting to a much higher setting 51v is a bit low would like 52.2 or 52.1 as the back to grid setting. can this be done with your firmware?

Not sure what Coulomb's been smoking. Image The answer is, unfortunately, no. The Back to utility setting (parameter 12) is still 44 to 51 in 1 V increments. But it's now on our list to raise its range by 4 volts for the next version, like we did to the Low cutoff voltage (parameter 29), which can in fact be changed in 0.1 V increments. I just tried both of these things on a Li-patched PIP.
Last edited by weber on Sun, 16 Oct 2016, 16:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ankit » Mon, 17 Oct 2016, 09:58

Hello,

I am working on PV system Integration with APC-UPS. For MPPT, i am using SCC-MPPT 3K from Voltronics.

I have written firmware such that solar is always given priority to AC mains.

Problem.
When system goes from online to on-PV , current from MPPT starts increasing and after a particular current MPPT turns off. Now again system goes online.

sequence of events -

online----detection of pv presence------goes to on PV------after a particular current MPPT turns off------again system online.

I have kept MPPT to max. charging current limit which is 60A.

Any help would be great.

Thanks
Ankit

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