PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 15:37

Hi Ankit,

Thanks for your kind words.

As listed in the index in the first post of this thread:

The protocol manual is here:
viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter& ... 332#p53732

And the CRC code is here:
viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter& ... 332#p53760

It is the XModem CRC here (with certain characters having 1 added to them):
https://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/info/cr ... ation.html

I can't make any sense of that response, except that it appears that you have missed some characters from the start of the response and have captured only the CRC and the carriage return. Why there is anything _after_ the carriage return I don't know. The expected response begins with "PI" followed by two ASCII digits then the two bytes of CRC and a carriage return.
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Post by paulvk » Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 20:03

" to send it higher charge voltage commands, for the LiFePO4 pack to actually charge at its full rate instead of trickling all day in full sunlight."

There is no head room for higher voltages in the PIP4048 you would need to buy the high voltage inverter.
If yo get near 60volts for the battery you run the risk of blowing the capacitors and FETs.

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Post by andys » Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 20:17

paulvk wrote: " to send it higher charge voltage commands, for the LiFePO4 pack to actually charge at its full rate instead of trickling all day in full sunlight."

There is no head room for higher voltages in the PIP4048 you would need to buy the high voltage inverter.
If yo get near 60volts for the battery you run the risk of blowing the capacitors and FETs.


I don't need to go higher than 56-57V, but I found if I set the float to 54V it really slows down charging of LiFePO4 pack long before the battery is anywhere near 56V

I don't understand why it does this, other than it was designed for Lead Acid only.

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Post by solamahn » Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 20:56

Might have something to do with starting the charging day with a battery voltage higher than 50v. I know 2424msx is like that. If the charging day starts with a battery voltage above 25v, then the inverter goes straight into float. I set float at 27v and it worked fine with the Lifepo4. Still charge at high current until approaching 27v. I did not think 4048's were like this. I have 4048's set on 54 56 and they charge the Lifepo4 up to 56 and then drop to 54. They do not stay at 56 for long because the inverter senses that the voltage is increasing quickly. The Lifepo4's might not get 100% charged but that's ok
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Post by andys » Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 21:13

I did read about that, but I don't think thats quite what I'm seeing:

Its not in float.   I've seen it in float: it sticks to the set float voltage and flashes the battery icon.

In this case, it still keeps charging up to the higher CV/bulk voltage, but slows down the supplied power once it passes the float voltage.

Eg. Float set to 54.0V, batteries reading 54.1V and still charging, but only at about 300W, even though 2kW was available in full sunlight (as verified by turning on a heater).

In this case, I can change the rate of charge ONLY by changing the float voltage setting.


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Post by weber » Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 22:01

Hi Andys. Despite your assurance that it is not in float, it sounds an awful lot like the firmware bug which causes the PIP, under certain conditions, to go to float mode prematurely, not going to absorb voltage first. This is fixed by Coulomb's patched firmware.

The conditions under which this occurs are described here:
viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter& ... 332#p59882

The patched firmware is downloadable here, and there are instructions on how to install it:
viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter& ... 332#p59891
Last edited by weber on Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 13:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by andys » Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 22:31

Thanks weber, but I'm still curious why it would be charging at all if I'm above the float voltage. Isn't the point of float to maintain a set voltage? If the batteries are already above that, there should be no current flowing...

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Post by weber » Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 22:59

andys wrote: Thanks weber, but I'm still curious why it would be charging at all if I'm above the float voltage. Isn't the point of float to maintain a set voltage? If the batteries are already above that, there should be no current flowing...

Yes, the point of float is to maintain a set voltage. Isn't it doing so? It may initially overshoot by a volt or so, but it usually settles down to within 0.1 V of the float setting.

But maintaining a set voltage does not mean that the charge current will immediately drop to zero, particularly when it has not first been taken up to the absorb voltage. The voltage the PIP sees is partly due to the battery's state of charge and partly due to charge current times the internal resistance of the battery. So although the PIP is maintaining a constant voltage, the state of charge will continue to slowly increase and the charge current will continue to slowly decrease.

Once you load Coulomb's patched firmware, it will take it up to absorb voltage before falling back to float, as it should. In that case, you can expect the current to fall to zero immediately when it goes to float stage, because its state of charge will have already been taken up to 100% (or close enough) during the absorb stage.
Last edited by weber on Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 13:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ankit » Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 23:06

Thanks for your reply. Image Image
Now device is communicating properly. The issue was with USB-RS232 converter.

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Post by weber » Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 23:27

I'm guessing that when you wrote
andys wrote:... it still keeps charging up to the higher CV/bulk voltage, but slows down the supplied power once it passes the float voltage. Eg. Float set to 54.0V, batteries reading 54.1V and still charging, but only at about 300W, even though 2kW was available ...
that you just assumed it would keep going up to the so-called bulk or CV voltage, but haven't actually seen it go much more than 0.1 V above the float setting. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I say "so called" because although it's called that in the manual, it's really the absorb voltage. The "bulk" stage is really only the current-limited stage where the voltage continually increases. When the specified voltage is reached, we are then in the absorb stage where that voltage is held constant for some time. It's not very helpful of them to call it the "C.V." stage either, since the float stage is also a CV (constant voltage) stage. But then, I'm a pedant. It pays to be one, when you're doing engineering. Image
Last edited by weber on Wed, 14 Sep 2016, 13:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ankit » Thu, 15 Sep 2016, 00:49

Hello,

I have connected 4 AGM - Lead acid batteries to MPPT-3K and I gave command PBT ( for changing battery type to customized) but unit is not accepting it!!

Any clue on that?

Thanks

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Post by Adverse Effects » Thu, 15 Sep 2016, 01:50

any chance someone here can help HBPowerwall

he is from Brizzy and has a PiP

[tube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46OkkUBVqlQ[/tube]
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Post by paulvk » Thu, 15 Sep 2016, 04:10

I can not help with the software but I use a single phase KW hour meter on the input and output of the PIPs so the difference is the power generated and used.

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Post by Northland » Fri, 16 Sep 2016, 12:34

I'm about to receive a new main board. I assume it will have later firmware and will already have lifepo4 as an option? So I just need to update the scc firmware? Can I do that without the main board?

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Post by solamahn » Fri, 16 Sep 2016, 13:24

No
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 01:16

The slightly longer answer is: No, not without a lot of bother. The new main firmware likely won't have a LiFEPO4 option. You should pair 72.60 with SCC 4.10:

http://powerforum.co.za/topic/793-axper ... -for-cpu2/.
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Post by Northland » Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 01:37

Well that's a pain. Haven't powered up yet so don't know what it has.

So I noticed some changes in the new board. Let's play: what's been removed and why?
Image
Both appear to have been filtering of the 230v, one on the input and other on the output. Have software changes made these redundant?

Capacitors still 63v. FETs are different though
Image
Last edited by Northland on Fri, 16 Sep 2016, 15:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Northland » Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 01:59

Even though they state:

Image

?

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Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 06:18

Northland wrote: Both appear to have been filtering of the 230v, one on the input and other on the output. Have software changes made these redundant?
Spike filtering and protection are not things that you can move from hardware to software. Those capacitors seem to have been removed after the goo was applied, or more likely the machine hasn't been programmed not to goo there, or the assembler forgot to not goo them any more.

I see a common mode choke replaced with links, and some movistors (protection devices) missing. It also appears that they changed relay brands. Perhaps this one is just as good and the others were out of stock, or perhaps another company tendered with the lowest price.
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 16:22

weber wrote: I can't make any sense of that response, except that it appears that you have missed some characters from the start of the response and have captured only the CRC and the carriage return. Why there is anything _after_ the carriage return I don't know. The expected response begins with "PI" followed by two ASCII digits then the two bytes of CRC and a carriage return.

Actually, I believe that the QPI command is one of the few that does not send a CRC, contrary to what the protocol document says. For all the PIP-4048-like machines, the response is "(PI30" followed immediately by a carriage return. So all those non-text bytes in the response make no sense. It seems likely that you (Ankit, to whom Weber was responding above) have a problem with timing or other communications problem.
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160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by coulomb » Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 16:32

Northland wrote: Even though they state: ... Support lead acid and LiFePo4 batteries ...

Yes, even though. They have claimed this since the "User" battery type was available (setting USE in parameter 05 Battery Type, and settings 26,27, and 29 which set some battery parameters).

Ok, I was being too picky; they have limited support for LiFePO₄ batteries. I claim that if they truly supported LiFePO₄ batteries, then they would have more suitable ranges for things like low battery disconnect voltage. There is also the too-early exit from bulk charging bug that seems to affect LiFePO₄ batteries more frequently than lead acid.

Edit: Your post seemed to suggest that setting 5 would have a fourth setting (other than AGm/FLd/USE), where LiFePO₄ is an explicit option that is fully supported. That's what I was saying I don't expect to see any time soon, certainly not in firmware version 74.60 which I believe your new control board is likely to be loaded with.
Last edited by coulomb on Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 06:36, edited 1 time in total.
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1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by andys » Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 16:52

I have 72.60 and there's definitely no LiFePO4 option.

This unit desperately needs working (non-buggy) "bulk charge voltage" and a new setting "charge termination current", before it can be considered to actually support LiFePO4, unless you're happy to finish some days with only 70% charge, despite ample PV input.

I'm ending overnight drain at 30% SoC, so I can't afford not to be fully charged by the end of a sunny day.

I'm setting up my system to automatically set (via RS-232) high float voltage in the morning, so it charges at max rate all day, and the reduce float voltage to 54.0 once the data from the BMS indicates full charge.

(edit: The above is the conclusion I came to based on my own testing, as well as the excellent work done + helpful sharing of knowledge by members of this forum) :)
Last edited by andys on Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 07:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by weber » Sat, 17 Sep 2016, 17:17

coulomb wrote:Ok, I was being too picky; they have limited support for LiFePO₄ batteries.
What is this "limited support" of which you speak? I see nothing more than an allowance for different types of lead-acid battery.
I claim that if they truly supported LiFePO₄ batteries, then they would have more suitable ranges for things like low battery disconnect voltage.

Indeed. But raising the low voltage cutoff range, and fixing the no-absorb bug, are not the only things we had to change to prevent PIP-4048s from mistreating 16-cell LiFePO4 batteries.

We also fixed the problem where it would not stay at the absorb voltage long enough to let the BMS balance the cells, because it only stayed until the charge current dropped below 1/5th of the maximum charge current setting or 5 amps which ever is greater. We changed it to 1/30th of the max charge current setting or 1 amp.

We also fixed the problem where the battery had to be nearly empty (4 volts below float) before it would go back to bulk/absorb. We changed that to 1 volt below float.

This patched firmware has been working fine for over a year now.
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Post by paulvk » Sun, 18 Sep 2016, 04:51

CSD19505KCS 80 V N-Channel NexFET™ Power MOSFET 150AMP

This would be the one to replace it with

CSD19536KCS 100 V N-Channel NexFET™ Power MOSFET 150AMP
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Post by lopezjm2001 » Sun, 18 Sep 2016, 20:59

weber wrote:Once you load Coulomb's patched firmware, it will take it up to absorb voltage before falling back to float, as it should. In that case, you can expect the current to fall to zero immediately when it goes to float stage, because its state of charge will have already been taken up to 100% (or close enough) during the absorb stage.
I have been using the LiFEPO4 patched firmware and I am not sure I am seeing the inverter go into float mode. As emoncms does not seem to monitor inverter current, just inverter loading in watts.

Image

Image

Constant Voltage setting: 54.7 volts

Float voltage setting: 53.8 volts.

I am using a Victron Energy BMV302 to monitor the inverter's load current and it is uploading to MY EMONCMS DASHBOARD. It is open to public. At this time of year the charging time is limited being first month of spring. Solar generation is facing north and generation finishes at about 2:30pm due to tree shading.



Thanks,

John
Last edited by lopezjm2001 on Sun, 18 Sep 2016, 12:29, edited 1 time in total.

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