PIP-5048MK inverter

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coulomb
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

affer wrote: Tue, 03 Nov 2020, 23:20 in which order do you recommend update? display or 71.94 first?
I don't know the reasoning for updating one before the other. But in my notes for the 71.86 main firmware update, I said that I now believe that it's important to update the removable display firmware first. I don't recall where I got that from. In the absence of better information, you might as well do the removable display firmware update first.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by affer »

Thanks Coulomb.

it took two tries to update the firmware on the display, 1. update it was just black, on second update the display worked (same file)

and the inverter update is also succesfull, thanks for the guide.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Tobsen1234 »

Hi i found this forum in googel and have some questions about the mpp Solar 5048 mk inverter. Im from Germany an Running a Solar System on My House.
Setup:
3 5048 mk inverters in 3 Phase Operation.
Lifepo4 48volt 300ah self build battery
Daly 300 amp bms
Victron 712 bmv
10kwp Heckert Solar Panels ( 26 Pieces)
Now my question:
At the Moment ist is Not possible to get the inverters in Bypass Mode. If the battery gets to low Vorlage boarder ( 48volt ) the inverter load the battery to 50volt ( back to battery Setting ) But i want That the inverter Switch to Grid Mode (Bypass?) at 48 Volt. I want to load the battery only with pv Power. Is That possible ? I try Every Mode But Always the same behaviour. Maybe that is Not possible with 3 Phase Setup ?
Thank you very much and greetings from Munich
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

Tobsen1234 wrote: Mon, 16 Nov 2020, 03:55 At the Moment ist is Not possible to get the inverters in Bypass Mode. If the battery gets to low Voltage border ( 48volt ) the inverter [recharges] the battery to 50volt ( back to battery Setting ) But i want That the inverter Switch to Grid Mode (Bypass?) at 48 Volt. I want to load the battery only with pv Power. Is That possible ? I try Every Mode But Always the same behaviour. Maybe that is Not possible with 3 Phase Setup ?
The manual does state "* ECO mode disabled when in parallel mode." I haven't thought of a reason for this, and I'm yet to finish wading through the complex code that implements this. But so far it does seem that bypass mode (there isn't really an ECO mode, that's just marketing speak for bypass mode) is not possible with paralleled or three-phase inverters. It seems that with more than one inverter paralleled / three phased, if you exceed the inverter's ratings in line mode, you just get fault code 07 after a short time (overload timeout).

If this is a problem, it's possible that you could avoid this problem in your case by running the inverters as single machines. I'd want to think carefully about this before suggesting that you actually go ahead and do this. But just at the moment, I can't think of a reason why this would not work, except that settings would not transfer automatically, and you would not be able to read data from all three machines.

Edit: as pointed out below, there is also the problem that when the grid is not present, the inverter outputs won't lock at 120° to each other, so it won't be safe to run genuine 3-phase loads at that time.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Tobsen1234 »

Hi and thanks for the explanation. The Problem is I just have one N cable for all 3 phases. So run every inverter in single mode is not so easy in my house.
I just want that the inverter went on Bypass if the battery is empty. But you are right I think the Bypass mode is only possible in single setup
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by NuOG »

Coulomb, what would happen in this case if the battery was simply disconnected by another device that was simply monitoring battery voltage?

My understanding of the post is that the units are being used in true 3 phase operation as well, so how does "run as single machines" work?

cheers, TJ
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

NuOG wrote: Tue, 17 Nov 2020, 08:49 Coulomb, what would happen in this case if the battery was simply disconnected by another device that was simply monitoring battery voltage?
I don't know the full answer to that question. I assumed that really bad things would happen if the BMS disconnected the battery, but this often happens when the battery is full and there is no charge current, and usually the PV is providing all the load current. In those cases, the disconnection seems to be benign. Some inverter models are even designed to run with no battery, but I've always assumed that starting with no battery is very different to disconnecting the battery when it's running. In short, I don't recommend it at all.

My own system has a lot of contactors, so that when the Big Red Button is mashed, everything disconnects (PV, AC-in, battery). Another contactor in the switchboard ensures continuity to the load, if the grid is present.
My understanding of the post is that the units are being used in true 3 phase operation as well, so how does "run as single machines" work?
Ah, yes. If there are actual 3-phase loads, it would not be safe, because if the grid disappears, the independent inverters will continue supplying the loads, including 3-phase loads, but they will drift out of phase and even frequency, which could burn up motor windings. With the inverters configured as 3P1/2/3 and the paralleling cables installed, they will maintain the correct phase with special CAN bus messages.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by executivul »

@NuOG
I also have 3 phase, one common neutral to the house (L1,L2,L3,N) and Protective Earth (E), but ALL my loads are all 220V, so I have three circuits, each like: Phase(Lx) and Neutral (N) and E.
I use the solar system (PIP5048MK) only on the first circuit (L1,N,E).
Recently I decided to get some more panels, and a second PIP5048MK to run them, I'll keep the second one in ECO/Bypass mode (15W power consumption) and use it as a simple charger, but always ready to power the loads if the first one fails. The first one gets disconnected and the second one takes over with ATS like switching, never tying together the outputs of the two inverters.

My 2c: As long as you don't have 380V loads, and you don't try to parallel the outputs, then the inverters can be run as standalone units! If you need 3 phase power, or if you need more power on the same circuit (parallel operation), then you MUST use the comm cards and the ECO/Bypass mode is not usable anymore.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by NuOG »

Thanks Coulomb (Mike) and exec.

I guess it all comes back to personal or colloquial descriptions.

In my world "3 Phase" means just that. The type of power that runs 3 phase motors and the peaks are 120° apart, 1/3 of the period etc. 3 x units on their own independently is not technically 3 phase, it's 3 x single phases. I don't think I'm being pedantic here, they are vastly different in operation.

As for externally controlled methods of battery disconnection, I totally agreee, MIke! I was just curious if anyone knew/had tried. I'm also onboard with your safety methods, which I'm arranging as a staged disconnect a few 100ms apart...adjustable if needed.

cheers, TJ
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

NuOG wrote: Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 05:20 3 x units on their own independently is not technically 3 phase, it's 3 x single phases. I don't think I'm being pedantic here, they are vastly different in operation.
It depends on how your loads are connected. If all loads are single phase (one line and neutral), they are much the same. With 3 inverters and 3-phase AC-in, the output of the inverters (which synchronise their outputs to their inputs), the outputs will be 3-phase too. Proper 3-phase, with outputs 120° apart. Even if the inverters are independent. You can run 3-phase loads on the outputs, whether the 3-phase loads are connected star or delta.

The problem is that after a blackout or if the AC-in breaker opens, unless you have them configured as 3-phase and use the "parallel" cards, the outputs will drift in phase, causing phase to phase voltages to vary from 400V to anywhere from zero to 460V.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by NuOG »

coulomb wrote: Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 06:19 (which synchronise their outputs to their inputs)
Hmmmm..... From what you are saying here, even though the units are essentially an inverter, they actually adjust themselves to match phasing of what they see on their own active grid supply if it is connected. Have I got that right? I did not know this. Hence part of my thinking that parallel cards etc were always needed for correct 3 phase.

In my setup I am not planning on having any permanent connection to grid at all, except when monitoring via 485 indicates that it is getting close to being needed. I was planning on only connecting the grid via contactor at that time, and then only if it was a relatively minor draw, say perhaps <1Kw. If the system needed significant draw and solar and battery weren't up to it, I've always planned on things being a complete changeover at the main board, rather than use the units' inbuilt AC inputs to shift onto. At this stage I can still change layouts if I think it worth it, but I had always planned on minor interruptions not being a problem during manual board switching as needed, which are planned to be infrequent.

If the parallel cards are fitted, and one of the units connects to grid, does that unit then align to that phase? And thus shift other units into sync as well?

cheers, TJ
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

NuOG wrote: Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 07:11 Hmmmm..... From what you are saying here, even though the units are essentially an inverter, they actually adjust themselves to match phasing of what they see on their own active grid supply if it is connected. Have I got that right?
Yes, that's right.
If the parallel cards are fitted, and one of the units connects to grid, does that unit then align to that phase?
Yes. Even if the parallel card is not fitted, and whether in SNG or 3P output mode.
And thus shift other units into sync as well?
If parallel cards are fitted and the inverters are in 3P1/2/3 output mode, then yes.

If not in 3Px output mode, that's an interesting question. I highly doubt it. I might check next time I'm browsing firmware in the vicinity of this functionality.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

coulomb wrote: Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 08:44 If not in 3Px output mode, that's an interesting question. I highly doubt it.
In fact, all CAN bus (parallel) commands and events are ignored if in single machine mode (output mode = SNG). So it can't possibly synchronise over the CAN bus when not in SNG mode, it seems to me.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Win »

Hi Experts
first post, been reading for a while but couldnt find the key info.

I am from Perth, i am pretty keen to do this Mpp inverter and batteries. But obviously this brand is not on CEC's list to be elligible for panel rebate. How do the people do?
Can I ask installer to install normal system about $4000 for 9.9kw system and once he finished can i swap with MPP off grid inverter with grid back up with a local electrician? Does it work like that? Legal?
Are most of electricians happy to install MPP inverters? Legal? REBS are down to kind of 4C so not interested to sell them back.

The plan I want is

PIP 8048 Max $1800
16 Pcs of LIfepo4 280AH with bms from Amy, alibaba. about $2500 shipped
9.9kw system about $4000
the inverter will feed the whole house with grid back up. I may buy an EV soon and change to electric hot water and induction stove.

Is it as simple as that?
Thanks
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Win »

Hi brothers and sisters

Was that some kind of not willing to answer type of question or should i start a new thread?
:D
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by paulvk »

I think it is claimed on the panels not the inverter as it would not be a grid feed system.
You can have both systems one installed as a grid feed in then the backup with a smaller set of panels or no panels using the grid feed to keep the battery charged via the inverters 230v ac charger the inverter would switch to battery in the event of grid fail to keep lights , fridge etc on.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by Win »

You are right they are claimed on panels, but to be eligible, inverter installed needs to be on the cec's list. also has to be installed by their certified installer. That's what i read. but dont know how strict the rules are.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by saviothecnic »

Dear friends, two questions

Has anyone tried to update the firmware of this inverter?

Do you know if they added the ability to never load from Utility

And if it is possible to limit the current even in low battery?

This would be very useful to improve the life of the battery by limiting it both in charge and maximum discharge.

I have a doubt I did not understand what changes in the operating modes
between On-Line and Echo and Automatic

I tried putting echo it pretty much seems to me
a dry ByPass of the inverter?
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by saviothecnic »

I have installed SolPipLog
it is very nice it communicates perfectly with my inverter via USB which even the program given with the inverter does not do.

I would like to send the inverter data via MQTT to my Domoticz someone has done and can send me some screens like this
to have a configuration example Thanks
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by coulomb »

saviothecnic wrote: Wed, 25 Nov 2020, 23:54 Do you know if they added the ability to never load from Utility
I don't have a King inverter myself, but I believe that the bug where commands to prevent utility charging were ignored has been fixed.
And if it is possible to limit the current even in low battery?
This would be very useful to improve the life of the battery by limiting it both in charge and maximum discharge.
The only way to limit discharge current is to stop the inverter, blacking out the load. This will only happen by the battery voltage dropping below the cutoff voltage. This is the same as with other models. [ Edit: What was I thinking? It can just bypass, and that's what the Axpert Max firmware does with setting 41. Sigh. ]
I tried putting echo it pretty much seems to me
a dry ByPass of the inverter?
ECO mode is exactly the same as bypass mode. Perhaps there was a difference at one point. There is an internal enumeration for ECO mode, for which the removable display firmware would return an 'E' from the QMOD (Query MODe) command. But the King/MK will never return that 'E' because there is no part of the King/MK main firmware that sets the mode to ECO. So any time you encourage it into ECO mode, what you'll get is really bypass mode. So QMOD will return 'Y' (for bYpass), not 'E' for Eco. Perhaps there are other models for which there truly is an ECO mode.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by saviothecnic »

Thanks Friend then I really don't understand
because they have inserted three Automatic On-Line Echo Bypass modes
It was enough just to insert On-Line and ByPass and Automatic

In which cases should I put the Inverter in Bypass?
It is not better to always make it work On-Line

Yes, my thought was to switch from SBU to SUB
in case the maximum discharge of the battery increases
of the set point without hiding the load from the inverter

I'm seeing the MK firmware is really limited and badly done hopefully they fix it I have version 71.90

I note that the pip-max series firmware is made much better They manage time for SUB SBU USB mode
and also limit A in discharge and battery charge
I thought it was possible to include these things in the MK series as well
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Re: PIP-5048MK inverter

Post by executivul »

coulomb wrote: Thu, 26 Nov 2020, 08:32 ECO mode is exactly the same as bypass mode. Perhaps there was a difference at one point. There is an internal enumeration for ECO mode, for which the removable display firmware would return an 'E' from the QMOD (Query MODe) command. But the King/MK will never return that 'E' because there is no part of the King/MK main firmware that sets the mode to ECO. So any time you encourage it into ECO mode, what you'll get is really bypass mode. So QMOD will return 'Y' (for bYpass), not 'E' for Eco. Perhaps there are other models for which there truly is an ECO mode.
I believe it's the other way around, my MK always returns E for ECO mode and B for Battery mode (SBU), I've never seem to receive other letters. You can also get the mode from QPIRI response Z: 0 for Auto, 1 for OnLine, 2 for ECO.
An idea: maybe E is for ECO as in "intended/external bypass for power saving" and Y is for Bypass as in "bypassed automatically due to higher then rated load"
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