ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Discussion about EV/Battery charging infrastructure, Electric highways etc.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by coulomb »

Re the Tritium RTM-75s with dual cables:

After bringing my Leaf as a CHAdeMO test vehicle, I'm back to the one cable per 25 kW back end (DC-DC converter) unit theory. With two 25 kW modules installed, when charging at 48 kW on one cable the other side said it was available for 25 kW. When we plugged in a car to the CCS side, the first side re-scaled so that 25 kW was the maximum (was 50 kW), and that first side dropped to some 24.8 kW, with the second side running 22.4 kW or so.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by philupandgo »

I guess it makes sense that the sharing options are at the module level rather than fancy gizmos within the box that rarely get used.
When we plugged in a car to the CCS side, the first side re-scaled so that 25 kW was the maximum (was 50 kW)
So at 50kw it was using the sequential mode (2x25kw modules) but when the other car was plugged in it could not manage sequential and simultaneous charging at the same time. At least it is flexible, but still a gotcha that we should be aware of when pulling in beside someone at an RTM75.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

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philupandgo wrote: Thu, 02 Jun 2022, 19:23 So at 50kw it was using the sequential mode (2x25kw modules) but when the other car was plugged in it could not manage sequential and simultaneous charging at the same time.
I imagined sequential mode would be where you have only one 25 kW module, and two cars plugged in. Then it would charge one at 25 kW and start the other when the first is finished. But re-reading the PDFs, it seems that 50 kW is the minimum configuration. So the only two options are 50 and 75 kW, so one empty slot initially, which you can fill later to upgrade to 75 kW.

I don't know what you mean by sequential and simultaneous at the same time. If you mean charging both vehicles at 50 kW at the same time, you can't do that with only 50 kW of DC-DC modules, and the rectifier (AC⇒DC) is presumably only rated at 75 kW.

So with the new software, you could presumably charge two vehicles either simultaneously or sequentially. I don't know if that's user selectable.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by philupandgo »

At Castlemaine the RTM75 is listed as two plugs each capable of 50kw. But when last i charged there it managed to peak at 70kw as it had for others. So it has 3x25kw modules and my understanding of sequential is that they can all feed the one plug in daisy chain fashion. Maybe I mis-read your comment - my bad. I guess we still don't know what is installed or how they manage sequential/simultaneous charging until we try a few more sites.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

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philupandgo wrote: Fri, 03 Jun 2022, 16:31 So it has 3x25kw modules and my understanding of sequential is that they can all feed the one plug in daisy chain fashion.
Yes, if that's what "sequential" means, it's odd terminology. To me they are simply electrically in parallel, so the currents and hence powers add.

To me, "sequential" means something happens, then when it's finished, something else happens with little or no delay.

I've added a Plughsare report to update this site to 75kW. I included a link to this photo:



That's the first time I've ever seen a Tritium (or perhaps any other brand) charger achieve actual nameplate power.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by coulomb »

Re the Tritium RTM series, I found some more technical information on the modules (though it's possible that this is just their interpretation of the presentation, and might be as wrong as our guesses) :
Inside the charger, we can see the modular construction. Starting with the bottom, the input circuit is easily configurable, based on the power requirements for the part of the world they’re shipping the charger to.

Above that are the 2x rectification units. To support the high power levels of fast chargers, an AC-to-DC rectifier is used in conjunction with a 3 phase AC input.

Above that are the DC-DC units that are actually delivering power to the car, in this instance up to 75kW, but Tritium announced their platform is capable of 350kW and beyond.

Built into the back of the door is the charge control module and the daughter boards responsible for handling the different charging standards.
From: https://techau.com.au/tritium-rtm-platf ... emi-ready/ about half way down.

So it seems I was eventually right about the modules: the two larger modules below are the rectifiers, and the three on top are the DC-DC power converters, the number of which determines the maximum power of the charger. Whatever customises for the cord (CHAdeMO, CCS, or whatever connector they use for semi trailers) is hidden in the back of the door, so we've never seen it.

Despite the Tritium PDFs not mentioning a 25kW configuration (any more?), it seems that you could plug in one rectifier and one DC-DC module for 25kW, and another pair of modules for a 25-50kW expansion. The last expansion would need just one DC-DC module, for 75kW total.

With talk of up to 3 MW of charger capability, it seems that it's about time for a much higher power connector standard. Let's not have another Tesla proprietary connector that doesn't become the industry standard.

I'm kicking myself for not taking a photo or video of the simultaneous charging, it's kind of cute. One of the Evie guys did, so maybe they might post one soon? I can't find a photo on the web, I think the software supporting it is too new. Hopefully it will get rolled out widely now that it's working. At the Jindalee site where my Leaf was part of the testing, one of the chargers whose software supposedly didn't support simultaneous charging actually did it. Unfortunately, I didn't pay attention to how you read the software version; it may not be accessible to ordinary users.

I notice that they are calling the controlling software "software" and not "firmware". There was talk of the "Linux back end", so presumably the software is more or less stored on a disk (likely a solid state disk, but that's a guess) rather than inside a microcontroller or tightly bound to one. So it's less firm than firmware.

If I'm called in for another test (perhaps Browns Plains or Forest Lake, from the Arena map), I'll be sure to pay more attention and take photos if they're not yet common.

Edit: one more off-topic quote from the above page:
What’s neat about the PKM design, is that being a DC fast charger, there’s no need for the two rectification modules at the bottom, which enables that space to be used for more charging units.
What they seem to be saying there is that the PKM units are supplied from a ~1000V DC bus rather than ~415V AC direct from the transformer, with the rectifiers in a nearby but separate enclosure.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

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coulomb wrote: Sat, 04 Jun 2022, 06:48 I can't find a photo on the web, I think the software supporting it is too new.
I found a promotional video from Tritium, of a PKM150. At about 1:02:

PKM150 simultaneous.jpg
PKM150 simultaneous.jpg (98.67 KiB) Viewed 589 times
Interestingly, the module powering the right side appears to be running at 110% of rated capacity. Perhaps it's beta software.

[ Edit: I'm guessing that if you see the 360° power meter like the previous photo, as opposed to the "dial" power meter, then it's the old software that doesn't do simultaneous charging. ]

Warning: dramatic music and visuals below!



I'd like to know where that installation is. The ZS EV (same colour as mine, but not mine) has a Queensland plate. Perhaps this is part of Tritium's new test facility across the road from their factory. Edit: From looking at some Google Street Views, it seems to be beside the main Tritium building, at the edge of the parking area bordering Actrol.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by coulomb »

It seems that Ampol will be supplying ABB 150 kW DC chargers. Unimaginative boxes, but if they work...





From https://www.plugshare.com/location/377658 (Woolworths MetroGo Alexandria, Sydney) and https://www.plugshare.com/location/377657 (Ampol Foodary Carseldine, Brisbane).
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by brendon_m »

That first one looks terrible for both pedestrians and wheelchair access
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by Chuq »

Yeah, certainly not as nice looking as the Hyperchargers, but equally as functional!
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by philupandgo »

Brendon, Not believing they would actually do that, looking closer, the blue cabinet is sitting on a grey pedestal. So the whole thing is just behind the protective posts. I'm sure there is room for a skinny wheelchair behind it if scraped knuccles are ok.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by reecho »

So ABB Terra 184 units derated to 150kw perhaps?
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by brendon_m »

philupandgo wrote: Tue, 19 Jul 2022, 15:39 Brendon, Not believing they would actually do that, looking closer, the blue cabinet is sitting on a grey pedestal. So the whole thing is just behind the protective posts. I'm sure there is room for a skinny wheelchair behind it if scraped knuccles are ok.
I see what you mean but I'm unconvinced. Either way I don't see the box curb at the front being very accessible friendly. Maybe they made the best out of a bad location or there's more to the picture that's out of frame but my money is on a lack of thought
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

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reecho wrote: Tue, 19 Jul 2022, 15:57 So ABB Terra 184 units derated to 150kw perhaps?
I thought I found a 150 kW model in that cabinet style, but I can't find it now. Maybe there was a recent upgrade to 180 kW, just so that they beat Tritium's and others' 175 kW models? ABB also have a 360 kW model, to beat the others' 350 kW.

The Alexandria Plugshare entry reports an initial install of 70 kW, upgrading to 150 kW later. I assume it's a power module addition, but possibly it's replacing the whole charger. 70 kW seems an odd size to me.

It seems that other outlets use different charger models again:



From https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/a ... er-network
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by Nagaman »

I can’t see a petrol station putting in anything faster than 150 simply because you need 20+ minutes to bathroom/shop/coffee and that’s their survival strategy. Penalising for overstaying would be self-harm.

350kw chargers would be something I’d avoid, simply because you can’t plug in and then walk away and get the necessaries done without having to duck back out > unplug > move vehicle > go back > collect > return. What a faff.
If you can simply stand there > recharge > leave …..why buy anything there ? Who is going to fund this if the power is affordable..?
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by reecho »

coulomb wrote: Tue, 19 Jul 2022, 18:54
reecho wrote: Tue, 19 Jul 2022, 15:57 So ABB Terra 184 units derated to 150kw perhaps?
I thought I found a 150 kW model in that cabinet style, but I can't find it now. Maybe there was a recent upgrade to 180 kW, just so that they beat Tritium's and others' 175 kW models? ABB also have a 360 kW model, to beat the others' 350 kW.

The Alexandria Plugshare entry reports an initial install of 70 kW, upgrading to 150 kW later. I assume it's a power module addition, but possibly it's replacing the whole charger. 70 kW seems an odd size to me.

It seems that other outlets use different charger models again:



From https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/a ... er-network
That pic (or photoshop) is of a different brand charger namely an Alpitronic Hypercharger. https://www.hypercharger.it/ Chargenet in NZ use them now.

The 70kW limit will be a site specific one until upgrades are completed. It would be a bit unusual for servos to have 150kw spare capacity off their DB's by default.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

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reecho wrote: Mon, 25 Jul 2022, 13:18 That pic (or photoshop) is of a different brand charger namely an Alpitronic Hypercharger. https://www.hypercharger.it/
Ah, thanks. They look so different side on.
The 70kW limit will be a site specific one until upgrades are completed. It would be a bit unusual for servos to have 150kw spare capacity off their DB's by default.
They have a 500 kVA transformer now. That seems a bit large for the shops that are there. But I guess it's not trivial updating the cabling and Distribution Board to make use of it.

500 kVA is already 700 A per phase (725 A @ 230 V phase to neutral), so some of the larger DC chargers would start to need a transformer to themselves. Some of the Tesla charging locations in the USA have 16-20 or more stations at 250 kW each; they must need some massive cabling and transformers even with 480 V phase to phase. Or perhaps they are designed to only provide perhaps 25% of theoretical maximum capacity, and throttle charges if needed.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by sleeperpservice »

Came across this press release today that mentioned Belmot WA so had a mosy along the 3 servos along Great Eastern highway and there appears to be no progress on them at all. Supposed to be part of ARENAs funding and said installed by June July 2022.

https://www.ampol.com.au/about-ampol/ne ... rge-launch
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

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sleeperpservice wrote: Thu, 04 Aug 2022, 17:26 ... had a mosy along the 3 servos along Great Eastern highway and there appears to be no progress on them at all. Supposed to be part of ARENAs funding and said installed by June July 2022.
Huh. Carseldine (north Brisbane) opened 28th July, so they just made the June/July target. Perhaps it just takes a bit longer to get bits shipped all the way out west.

The Carseldine charger is free to the end of August. Perhaps all of them, though only 2 seem to be open per the AmpCharge web page.

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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by sleeperpservice »

Ahh still say coming soon on this page. Didn't look like any good spots to park perpendicular so might be a trailer friendly location unless they put it in the existing parking bays outside the shop

https://ampcharge.ampol.com.au/
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by Paul9 »

Hi people

Please correct me if any of the following is incorrect. The Ampcharge chargers are DC fast chargers. The Jolt chargers from Ausgrid are also DC only. The NRMA (NSW) are DC only.

As my Suzuki conversion is AC then even if I purchased an CCS2 Chademo adapter I would still be unable to use any of the chargers in the above systems?

How come no AC charging involved in the above roll outs?

Thanks
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by 4Springs »

Paul9 wrote: Sat, 06 Aug 2022, 08:34 As my Suzuki conversion is AC then even if I purchased an CCS2 Chademo adapter I would still be unable to use any of the chargers in the above systems?

How come no AC charging involved in the above roll outs?
Correct, you can't charge your conversion at one of these DC fast chargers.
This thread is talking about charging sites installed under a particular ARENA grant. The grant was for DC fast chargers, not AC, so you can be guaranteed that they will provide DC fast chargers at the sites.
Individual locations may also provide AC charging, for instance the sites installed by EHT in Hobart will do so, but this is entirely up to the operator. If you'd like AC outlets then you can lobby your local operator.

In Tasmania the state government provided a separate grant just for AC charging sites. You may have something similar in your area?
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by 4Springs »

For an example of a site that provides AC and DC, see this one on Plugshare: https://www.plugshare.com/location/264498
It has three types of 'plugs' (which in some case are sockets):
Screenshot at 2022-08-06 10-55-59.png
Screenshot at 2022-08-06 10-55-59.png (35.43 KiB) Viewed 31 times
The Type 2 is an AC socket.
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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by Paul9 »

Thanks Christopher.

I suspected this may be the case. I have adapters which allow me to use Type2, J1772 and Tesla Destination chargers and of course normal 15amp wall sockets.

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Re: ARENA - Future Fuels Fund

Post by coulomb »

Paul9 wrote: Sat, 06 Aug 2022, 08:34 The NRMA (NSW) are DC only.
Are you sure about that? I thought all NRMA charging sites were DC and AC. [ Edit: it seems I was wrong. Sigh. ]
As my Suzuki conversion is AC then even if I purchased an CCS2 Chademo adapter I would still be unable to use any of the chargers in the above systems?
CCS2 and CHAdeMO are both DC standards, so converting one to the other doesn't get you AC. It doesn't make sense to make a CCS or CHAdeMO to AC (e.g. type 2) adapter*, because it would have to be a DC to AC power converter (inverter), and there is already an AC to DC conversion in the charger (or the back end feeding the charger station), and another AC to DC converter (On Board Charger) in the car. That would make three conversion steps, each with their own losses, and the middle one (the "adapter") would be expensive and bulky.

* There are some adapters that look like CHAdeMO to type 2 adapters, but these are for Tesla models S and X in Europe, which use a slightly modified type 2 socket for both AC and DC charging. So these are still DC to DC adapters, with no power conversion required, and can't be used on your conversion.
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