Phantom braking

Tesla EVs Interest Group
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

I’m really looking forward to the update that finally stops the dangerous behaviour.
On a return from Bendigo down the McIvor Hwy the autopilot decided to ‘brake test’ a cement truck, on my tail in a line of traffic, at the speed limit. :oops:
B dangerous and embarrassing, and needs fixing before I’ll accept all this FSD spruiking.
User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 3572
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

Re: Phantom braking

Post by jonescg »

Yeah I wouldn't use these features personally. Quite a few complaints from M3 owners finding their self-driving features trying to kill them... :o
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch chair.
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

jonescg wrote: Thu, 19 Mar 2020, 08:44 Yeah I wouldn't use these features personally. Quite a few complaints from M3 owners finding their self-driving features trying to kill them... :o
The other dangerous aspect is corners will double lines and the propensity to dive to the outside of the bend, run onto the inner line and even the rumble strip separating them.
The thought of motorcyclists (or trucks) taking the ‘racing line’ doesn’t bare thinking about.
User avatar
g4qber
Senior Member
Posts: 1862
Joined: Sat, 31 Jul 2010, 06:27
Real Name: Joseph
Location: Perth
Contact:

Re: Phantom braking

Post by g4qber »

Phantom braking also occurs in standard traffic aware cruise control (TACC) mode
2020 Model 3 SR+ - Delivered Fri 17 Jan ‘20 - k kms 52
2009 Tango - http://www.evalbum.com/211
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

g4qber wrote: Thu, 19 Mar 2020, 17:47 Phantom braking also occurs in standard traffic aware cruise control (TACC) mode
Maybe that’s what I experienced on Wednesday on the Goulburn Valley fwy when we were cruising at just 80 behind another vehicle and some hesitation occurred as traffic blew past at 110.
The latest update has made significant speed differences between lanes a potential hazard.........but slowing the slower traffic doesn’t make sense. Dips, shadows .....any excuse it seems.
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

A YouTuber - Cf Tesla, has just brought to my attention that update 8.1 might be a trial for just a few and I might be a guinea pig for proving purposes. He says he’s on 12.1 having skipped 8.1 .........does that sound plausible?.
All I know is that basic autopilot isn’t to be trusted under some traffic circumstances
User avatar
brendon_m
Senior Member
Posts: 673
Joined: Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 11:00
Real Name: Brendon McCarrol

Re: Phantom braking

Post by brendon_m »

Unplugged ev is on 4.1 and his car tried several times to update to 8.1 but kept failing to update. Then the update stop being listed. After talking to tesla he managed to get out of them that 8.1 is buggy and they've back pedalled on the roll out and that's why his car is no longer trying to update.

https://youtu.be/rveyA2iJmzY
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

^^^^^^ dead right it’s buggy.
This afternoon we got full regen out in the middle of nowhere.
It decided we were suddenly in a 50 k zone ......after around 4 kms it decided we weren’t.
If something big had been on our tail I shudder to think of the consequences.

Do I really have to have a Twitter account to get the message across....!
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

Well 8.1 has been replaced by 8.2
Cornering is still clumsy......time will tell on phantom braking.
User avatar
g4qber
Senior Member
Posts: 1862
Joined: Sat, 31 Jul 2010, 06:27
Real Name: Joseph
Location: Perth
Contact:

Re: Phantom braking

Post by g4qber »

https://youtu.be/q2uHsa-MXDc - bjørn nyland phantom braking
https://youtu.be/n8qSO7dJ32U - follow up
2020 Model 3 SR+ - Delivered Fri 17 Jan ‘20 - k kms 52
2009 Tango - http://www.evalbum.com/211
User avatar
g4qber
Senior Member
Posts: 1862
Joined: Sat, 31 Jul 2010, 06:27
Real Name: Joseph
Location: Perth
Contact:

Re: Phantom braking

Post by g4qber »

Perhaps AI or human needs to go through the data to determine that if the road is straight, don’t brake
This is for my cases in Midland Bishop Rd, Ballajura Hepburn Av and Edgewater Edgewater Dr

My hunch is that a previous driver’s braking data has been uploaded to the hive AP/TACC cloud database
2020 Model 3 SR+ - Delivered Fri 17 Jan ‘20 - k kms 52
2009 Tango - http://www.evalbum.com/211
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

You certainly don’t want to tailgate my SR+ unless you’re into excitement.
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

I’m still stuck on version 2020.8.3 ......is anyone else?.

Is it normal to jump updates rather than get them in sequential order ?
User avatar
g4qber
Senior Member
Posts: 1862
Joined: Sat, 31 Jul 2010, 06:27
Real Name: Joseph
Location: Perth
Contact:

Re: Phantom braking

Post by g4qber »

I’m on 2020.12.5
Waiting on 2020.12.10
https://teslafi.com/firmware/

Which state/territory are you in Nagaman

Cos there is a Teslawa slack group in WA

2020.12.6 is also out
2020 Model 3 SR+ - Delivered Fri 17 Jan ‘20 - k kms 52
2009 Tango - http://www.evalbum.com/211
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

Gday Joseph, I’m in country Victoria .
I’m wondering if there is some sort of update ‘hierarchy’ that exists.
I had a couple of almost back to back updates, then nothing for weeks now.
V strange. :?:
User avatar
g4qber
Senior Member
Posts: 1862
Joined: Sat, 31 Jul 2010, 06:27
Real Name: Joseph
Location: Perth
Contact:

Re: Phantom braking

Post by g4qber »

Best to put in a service request via the app to push an update thru?
As it could be stuck

https://youtu.be/Fgf4J-aFrUw
Old vid but possibly relevant.
- good wifi signal required 2-3 bars, as model 3’s antenna is weaker than S & X allegedly. Antenna is in left wing mirror.
2020 Model 3 SR+ - Delivered Fri 17 Jan ‘20 - k kms 52
2009 Tango - http://www.evalbum.com/211
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

g4qber wrote: Sat, 25 Apr 2020, 20:36 Best to put in a service request via the app to push an update thru?
As it could be stuck

https://youtu.be/Fgf4J-aFrUw
Old vid but possibly relevant.
- good wifi signal required 2-3 bars, as model 3’s antenna is weaker than S & X allegedly. Antenna is in left wing mirror.
Thanks Joe, but I’ve rung ‘someone’ who tells me not to worry as my early January build means there’s nothing applicable to my vehicle........hmmm......so there’s no improvement in the phantom braking issue or any other camera recognition abilities ?
I have a wifi repeater within a metre of the left mirror and am getting 5/5 signal .....it’s all very odd.
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

Not to worry apparently, updates aren’t all generic.
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

Well I’ve jumped from 8.3 to 12.11.1 and phantom braking hasn’t gone away and, in fact, I’m getting frustrated with having to adapt to the unknown behavioural changes yet again.
I think I’ll go back to old fashioned driving again on roads other than arterial and motorway for safety sake.
I had speed sorted in that, if there way pressure on the accelerator and I selected acc, I could then adjust the speed to MY desire rather than to the max the computer wanted to impose on me. It now seems I can’t.......but I’m just more confused than ever.
However, I am a bit old and grumpy when it comes to tech for tech’s sake.
I sure as hell won’t be tempted by the blandishments of FSD !
roddilkes
Groupie
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue, 18 Sep 2007, 18:07
Real Name: Rod
Location: WA, Australia
Contact:

Re: Phantom braking

Post by roddilkes »

Just in case someone reading this thread is inclined to think that a Tesla Model 3 is complete crap
and to be avoided...

Tesla Model 3 is the best car I have ever bought, or driven for that matter. 20,000km so far and counting.
It has so many great features and such incredible tech I wouldn't know where to start defining them.
Apart from the tech it is an absolute blast to drive, fast as a stabbed rat but sure footed, and safe.

I'm happy to be part of the great experiment that is Tesla motors, certainly not perfect but streets ahead of most
other automotive manufacturers. They are dragging legacy car makers kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
I for one, tip my hat to Musk and Co.
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

The only thing I truly worry about from the Tesla perspective is Elon’s mental state over such a long period of incredible stress.
My perspective is more concerned with the hyping of the FSD revenue as justification for a $7k share price prediction.
Model3Man has done a deep search into the cameras.......he doesn’t know if the 3 different front ones are optimised for our side of the road. I’m yet to be convinced after my local back roads experience.
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

Ps - it’s a hoot on gravel roads.
roddilkes
Groupie
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue, 18 Sep 2007, 18:07
Real Name: Rod
Location: WA, Australia
Contact:

Re: Phantom braking

Post by roddilkes »

Elon Musk heads up Tesla but the company is also chock full of brilliant engineers.
I was at the World Solar Challenge last year and Tesla had head hunters there to cherry pick all the bright young graduating students at the comp to work at Tesla.

For people who may not be familiar with Tesla Model 3 driving here is some info on driving Modes:

1) You drive with no assistance, except warnings and an occasional nudge on the steering if you stray over the middle line of the road or too close to the edge.
Maybe there is automatic emergency braking but I have never had it activate.

2) Cruise Control, same as regular cruise control except it can see the car in front and keep a fixed distance behind. Adaptive. Very relaxing to drive this way.
As previously mentioned it has the "feature" of setting the cruise to the speed limit in that area then you manually adjust it down to your desired speed using
the scroll buttons on the steering wheel. Sometimes the car will determine that an oncoming vehicle (or a shadow) is a health hazard and will instantly activate Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) for a second or two until it realizes its mistake. This is what Nagaman is calling "phantom braking". You can see it is ok, but the Tesla M3 thinks otherwise. It can be disconcerting. I would not call it dangerous, if someone is tailgating they will need good reflexes, and its still their fault if they hit you. Hazard recognition is getting better with each OTA update. Touching the accelerator overrides it.

3) Autopilot/Autosteer, will steer the car along the road as long as you keep some torque pressure on the steering wheel. It's quite a hoot to feel the car steering itself through the steering wheel. The car can see the road edges (most times) and is also traffic aware for cars in parallel lanes, oncoming cars and cars crossing in front. It will often brake quite early if a car turns in front of you or if the car driving in the same lane turns off the road.
It will only accelerate again when that car is completely in another lane or turned off the road completely.
This mode is fantastic for slow stop/start traffic. It will stop when the car in front stops then start moving by itself when the traffic restarts.
AEB is also active in this mode.

I have read somewhere that you are ~50% less likely to have a collision when Autopilot is active. Maybe that is why my car costs only $700 /year to insure.
Stats can be misleading but it does give me some comfort and I use Autopilot very often.

4) Full Self Driving, this is a paid for optional extra which I don't have on my M3 so I cannot comment. I guess the name says it all but I think at least in Aus it
may be not quite "full" yet. Our lane markings here in Aus. are horrendously arbitrary and the car would use those for navigating as well as GPS.
That is something that state govts and the feds could tackle...
Nagaman
Groupie
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 05:17
Real Name: David

Re: Phantom braking

Post by Nagaman »

Thanks for the input Rod
Re phantom braking -
My major concern is when you have a truckie on a high on your case .......being in the right but wheelchair bound isn’t much compensation for being found totally innocent.
People have a tendency to think the worst of the one ahead and simply don’t understand our (unique?) phenomenon.
The recent northern NSW event where 2 fighting got run over is thankfully not common......so far.
roddilkes
Groupie
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue, 18 Sep 2007, 18:07
Real Name: Rod
Location: WA, Australia
Contact:

Re: Phantom braking

Post by roddilkes »

I've not yet had AEB activate with someone tailgating me. Not that I don't get tailgaters.
It's entirely possible that this scenario is included in the algorithm.
On top of that I have noticed with each OTA update the situation with phantom braking improves on my daily country drive.

At any rate if I have an angry truckie on my tail, I get out of their way and let another angry sod deal with them.
Post Reply