Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by nuggetgalore »

richi wrote: Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 19:39 So the trouble with your OBC started while you had the old battery? Have we yet found a car with a fresh 12V aux battery where the fuse&caps have released the magic smoke?
I have not read any thing about that (yet), may have missed it, so much to read.
The jury is still out as far as i know if the 20 A fuse in the MCU blows first and causes the caps to smoke or vice versa. But in the fuse thread a poor battery does get a mention.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by nuggetgalore »

richi wrote: Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 19:39 So the trouble with your OBC started while you had the old battery? Have we yet found a car with a fresh 12V aux battery where the fuse&caps have released the magic smoke?
I cannot think of a specific mention of a poor aux battery causing the fault.
In the fuse thread it is listed as one of a number of possibilities:
1. Fatigued MCU Fuse
2. Weak or Leaky Snubber Capacitors
3. AC input power: interrupt, voltage fluctuation, etc
4. 12V Aux battery: weak, old or worn out, dropping voltage to ECUs, dropping relay contacts, etc
5. ? placeholder, Did i leave anything out?
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 0&start=30
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by mark_hetho »

mikedufty wrote: Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 16:31 I don't know exactly what grounds they agreed to replace it, but quite likely the main factor was that the charger had been replaced in a recall about 18 months before the failure.
My charger failed within 18 months of the recall replacement, and my suggestions to the dealer that it should last at least 18 months fell on deaf ears....
richi wrote: Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 19:39 So the trouble with your OBC started while you had the old battery? Have we yet found a car with a fresh 12V aux battery where the fuse&caps have released the magic smoke?
My 12v battery was replaced 4-6 months before the charger failure. We noticed a couple of times it seemed to quit charging before fully charged, and so replaced the 12V as a troubleshooting step.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by nuggetgalore »

mikedufty wrote: Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 16:31 Mitsubishi Australia actually replaced my charger under warranty (despite the car being out of warranty) so it is possible. But it took 7 months, so I suspect you are better off replacing the capacitors even if it is covered. I don't know exactly what grounds they agreed to replace it, but quite likely the main factor was that the charger had been replaced in a recall about 18 months before the failure.
I read the thread
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=684
where you posted your trial and tribulations.
I went to the local Mitsi dealer,they did the last couple recalls for me.
They found the doc listing work on the charger 16/03/17 (I bought the car in January the same year).
To be honest,I had no idea they replaced or worked on the charger.
https://imgur.com/a/zIlM1fB
Unfortunately their supposedly only bloke who knows how to do the diagnostic is unavailable until next month.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by nuggetgalore »

As noted in the fuse thread, hopefully I can get the proper fuse.
I ordered a MUT3 clone to later later check the fault codes and other things.
I also ordered the caps, I am nearly finished cleaning the doghouse, the vertical CB stumps appear to be sound with good continuity to the rail. Removing the vertical CB looks like brain surgery challenge, have to be careful not to cause collateral damage,lol.
Also at Mitsubishi today I was shown a copy of what the charger recall was all about. It was a complete charger replacement as I suspected as it is the new version. They refused to give me a copy (extract from spare manual, a bit silly I thought).
PS.: I made an appointment at Mitsubishi 5th May to find out if Mitsi come to the party similar to Mike's, pointing out that there was no problem with the charger prior to the recall.
The 2012 model of a friend's still has the old version going strong with close to twice the KM on the clock
than mine.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by mikedufty »

What was the charger recall about? We had ours replaced under a recall, but couldn't find any public listing of the recall, it just came up on their internal systems when I brought it in for a different one.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by nuggetgalore »

mikedufty wrote: Thu, 16 Apr 2020, 18:55 What was the charger recall about? We had ours replaced under a recall, but couldn't find any public listing of the recall, it just came up on their internal systems when I brought it in for a different one.
https://imgur.com/a/zIlM1fB
I bought the car a few months before I got a recall letter. Had no idea what the charger recall was all about, only found out today that a charger of the new design was installed 17/03 /17 (date on serial label is 2015.04.04; serial No .00109)
Two mates of mine with 2012 models got recalls about the same time but I think only for the rust issue. A renewed vacuum pump recall was issued recently for my mates cars and surprisingly for mine again (haven't done that yet, valid until October).
PS.:
Got the vertical CB removed, was a delicate job,but I think I succeeded to have undamaged wires sticking up through the main board. Very short but hopefully long enough to get a good solder bond with the caps.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by mark_hetho »

I did at some point come across a recall notice for the charger issue on Mitsubishi Japan's website. Google translate indicated it was because "capacitors may crack"... To me it sounded like there was a problem in the chargers prior to the recall that is suspiciously similar to the problem in the chargers after the recall.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by nuggetgalore »

Hi all,
good news : charger fixed.
Thanks to all for the tremendous help from the contributors on the AEVA fora and these
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... &start=490
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4310

Yes the fuse(s) from Mitsubishi were "only" 28 bucks each, not bad considering the other not so easy and more expensive options.
The replacement of the caps ( I ordered four from RS in case I break them at a first attempt) needed steady hands and a bit of bush craft experience. I'm quite proud of myself,lol.

PS.: I posted a few thoughts on the above trouble shooting thread.
Comments are welcome ,good bad or indifferent.
Last edited by nuggetgalore on Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 20:26, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by brendon_m »

Great to hear, it's always a good feeling to pull a rabbit out of a hat. Especially when you know what a replacement is worth
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by tonyw »

Hi all,

My poor Mitsi suffered the now well-known OBC failure yesterday. It was a bright sunny day and (as is my habit) I plugged in the Grandpa cable to soak up a bit of good sunlight. Hadn't been running for more than 10 mins when I heard from inside the house a hollow "bonk" from the direction of the carport. On inspection, I found the car no longer charging, no lights showing on the dash, etc.

Removing the covers, I found the two caps on the upright board vapourised and the fuse blown. Took me most of today to get the OBC out of the car and onto the bench, but so far I haven't found anything else wrong. 4R7 resistors are OK, relay untested.

My charger is one of the later models dated 2015-04-04, serial #00089. I guess it was replaced under recall many years ago when previous owner had it. I had to replace the aux battery last year (don't recall the date but at most a year ago). I always use the trigger to stop charging and never a timer switch. Coolant level was at "Full".

I am assuming that the semis are all OK on the waffle plate, but that is the weekend's investigation. My immediate problems are:
1. 20A fuse (mouser).
2. Snubber caps.
3. Big 680 µF electros (digikey) (current ones are old and heat shrink has shrunk).
4. Big 220 µF electro (ditto).

What about a varistor across the snubber caps? Something mains-rated to absorb spikes? Has anyone considered it?

How do you go about bleeding air out of the coolant loop when reassembling?

I think I need a means of talking to the car through the OBD socket. What do I need to get to read and cancel fault codes, etc?
cheers

tony

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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by coulomb »

tonyw wrote: Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 19:14 3. Big 680 µF electros (digikey) (current ones are old and heat shrink has shrunk).
4. Big 220 µF electro (ditto).
I'm not convinced that these need replacing, if it's just the heatshrink. Check that the tops are flat with a ruler; do replace if not completely flat.
What about a varistor across the snubber caps? Something mains-rated to absorb spikes? Has anyone considered it?
These have the HV battery across them, not mains. I think just replace them with sturdier types, e.g. 6 kV rated.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by nuggetgalore »

tonyw wrote: Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 19:14

1. 20A fuse (mouser).
I got the fuse from Mitsubishi.
FUSE,MOTOR 9499A656
tonyw wrote: Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 19:14 How do you go about bleeding air out of the coolant loop when reassembling?
There is a description for it somewhere in the workshop manual on how to replace the coolant and bleed. I try to find it tomorrow.
tonyw wrote: Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 19:14
I think I need a means of talking to the car through the OBD socket. What do I need to get to read and cancel fault codes, etc?
I have an iScanner i909. It is supposedly able to read and cancel fault codes. I cannot clear the airbag fault light that comes on when disconnecting the aux bat. I never had any other fault code. When the charger did blow fuse and caps I had it fixed before I got the i909, so if there was an error flag set it cleared on its own.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by tonyw »

coulomb:

Thanks for the reply. Taking a close look at the caps, I see that the middle one is quite flat and the outer two are slightly bowed (less than the pictures in The Big Thread). Considering the difficulty of replacing them, I think I'll pass this time.

I mentioned varistors because the battery voltage and mains voltage are virtually the same. A simple varistor from Jaycar https://www.jaycar.com.au/search?text=r ... 3fcea336d5 is 24 mm diameter and would fit nicely on the outside of the dogbox, glued to it with a dab of silicone. It would protect the caps, at least. I don't know how much stored energy it might have to absorb.

I also have to replace the U-shaped coolant hose that connects the OBC box to the MPU box. It started to bleed whilst I was removing it. Fortunately, it doesn't look too difficult to replace.

nugget:

Is your i909 phone-based, laptop-based or stand-alone?

Now where are my dentist's digging implements? Gotta start clearing out that potting mix...
cheers

tony

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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by coulomb »

tonyw wrote: Sat, 22 Aug 2020, 07:53 A simple varistor from Jaycar https://www.jaycar.com.au/search?text=r ... 3fcea336d5 is 24 mm diameter and would fit nicely on the outside of the dogbox, glued to it with a dab of silicone.
? I'm pretty sure it has to be inside, with very short leads to the capacitors. Otherwise, the inductance of the leads would make the MOV pointless.

Also, it seems an unnecessary hazard to have leads with a low impedance to the HV battery lying around.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by nuggetgalore »

tonyw wrote: Sat, 22 Aug 2020, 07:53
Is your i909 phone-based, laptop-based or stand-alone?
It is standalone, I wished it was computer based, my guess it would be much easier to get to the wanted information and record it.


The info to bleed the cooling system is in the iMiEV workshop manual:
14 -COOLING ......
COOLANT CHANGE.....
COOLANT REFILLING
1.
caution Use the Mitsubishi genuine Dia Queen Super Long Life Coolant Premium without adding water because the concentration is preadjusted to 50%.
Prepare the required volume of coolant using a jug so as to avoid running out of coolant during the refilling and causing any damage to the water pump.
Recommended antifreeze: DIA QUEEN SUPER LONG LIFE COOLANT PREMIUM or equivalent*
note *similar high quality ethylene glycol based non-silicate, non-amine, non-nitrate and non-borate coolant with long life hybrid organic acid technology.
Quantity: 5.1 L
(including 1.1 L in the radiator condenser tank)
2.Remove the radiator condenser tank cap if it is still mounted.
3.Fill the coolant to near the radiator condenser tank filler port.

4.According to either of the procedures below, start the "Coolant refilling control".
(1) Not using M.U.T.-III
.....1. Pull the parking brake lever.
.....2. Set the electric motor switch to the "ON" position.
.....3. Within seven seconds, press ASC OFF switch for the minimum of 10 times.
(2) When using M.U.T.-III
.....1. After setting the electric motor switch to the "LOCK" (OFF) position, connect the M.U.T.-III to the diagnosis connector.
.....2. Set the electric motor switch to the "ON" position.
.....3. From the system selection screen of M.U.T.-III, select "EV-ECU".
.....4. From the EV-ECU screen, select "Actuator test".
.....5. Select the item No. 3 "Water pump actuate".
5.There will be a wait time of 20 seconds after the start of "Coolant refilling control" until the actuation of water pump. During this period, hold the prepared jug, and insert the jug tip into the radiator condenser tank filler port to be ready to fill the coolant.
6.After the 20-second wait time, the water pump repeats the operation (4 seconds) and stop (30 seconds). So, refill the coolant with an amount decreased by the water pump operation.
note In a case if the prepared coolant becomes about to run out, turn the electric motor switch to the "LOCK" (OFF) position beforehand, and stop the "Coolant refilling control" (at this time, perform the work with two people).
note Including the wait time, "Coolant refilling control" will be completed within seven minutes from the start (during this period, 12 times of 4-second operation are included).
If the coolant change is not completed, or if the control is stopped during the work, the refilling can be resumed by starting "Coolant refilling control" once again.
7.Until the coolant level stops decreasing by the water pump operation, repeat the step 6 above.
note The coolant refilling will be complete in about 3 to 4 minutes.
8.For the air bleeding of cooling system, operate the water pump for the minimum of 1 minute according to either of the procedures below.
(1) Not using M.U.T.-III
.....1. Set the electric motor switch to the "START" position.
.....2. Have the Ready indicator illuminated, and maintain the READY status for the minimum of 15 minutes.
note In the READY status, the water pump operates intermittently when the coolant temperature is low.
By maintaining the READY status for 15 minutes or longer, the total duration of water pump operation will be 1 minute or longer.

(2) When using M.U.T.-III
.....1. After setting the electric motor switch to the "LOCK" (OFF) position, connect the M.U.T.-III to the diagnosis connector.
.....2. Set the electric motor switch to the "START" position.
.....3. Have the Ready indicator illuminated, and achieve the READY status.
.....4. From the system selection screen of M.U.T.-III, select "EV-ECU".
.....5. From the EV-ECU screen, select "Actuator test".
.....6. Select the item No. 9 "Water pump actuate 2".
9.Set the electric motor switch to the "LOCK" (OFF) position to stop the water pump.
10.When the coolant level in radiator condenser tank is at the "L" line or higher, the air bleeding is complete.
11.If the coolant level in radiator condenser tank is at the "L" or lower, fill the coolant to the "F" line, and then perform the air bleeding of above step 8 again.
12.Adjust the coolant level so that the coolant level in radiator condenser tank comes to near the "F" line when the water pump is stopped.
13.Securely install the radiator condenser tank cap to the lock position of radiator condenser tank (until it clicks in place).
14.Install the electric motor unit inspection lid.
15.Install the luggage compartment floor
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by tonyw »

Thanks, nugget, for reproducing all that information. I must spend more time reading the Workshop Manual on that Russian site.

So much to learn, so little time...
cheers

tony

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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by tonyw »

Is there a secret to removing the big spade lug connectors (such as those connecting to the TXs, etc), or should I just pull harder?
cheers

tony

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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by mark_hetho »

tonyw wrote: Fri, 21 Aug 2020, 19:14 My charger is one of the later models dated 2015-04-04, serial #00089. I guess it was replaced under recall many years ago when previous owner had it.
This was exactly our experience. Had the original 2010 charger replaced under recall in 2018 with one dated 2015, and it failed about 18 months later... Pretty rubbish in my opinion that a part would last less than 2 years. Also the reason for the recall, as far as I can understand from a Google translate of a Japanese language technical note I came across was that the "capicitors might crack"... So it seems like the problem they were trying to solve with the recall has not been fixed.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by nuggetgalore »

tonyw wrote: Mon, 24 Aug 2020, 09:13 Is there a secret to removing the big spade lug connectors (such as those connecting to the TXs, etc), or should I just pull harder?
I know they were very tight to pull off, not totally sure though if gripping them at the right spots further down helped.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by tonyw »

Fuses arrived the other day. I bought five of them to avoid delays "next time" and to help others if urgent supplies are needed. The fuses came from Hong Kong through Mouser, but I am still waiting for capacitors supposedly in Farnell and RS Components stock in Sydney. Heaved a sigh of relief once the new fuse was installed and the access cover secured. I would hate to drop one of the fuse screws inside that inverter box!

I have taken the opportunity to buy a new CAT III multimeter with 1 kV insulation. I have also ordered a pair of new CRO probes, 100:1 attenuation with 1 kV insulation. I hope to have a look at the spikes and noise around those poor little caps while the charger is running. It remains to be seen whether I can get a clean signal in that noisy box.

Another gripe: the workshop manual on the Russian site describes a very different cooling system up the front. There is no accessible drain plug on the radiator, in fact I can not even see where coolant enters and leaves. I can see one water hose, but I would have to remove the battery to be able to disconnect the hose and drain the coolant fully. So far I have only been able to disconnect the hoses at the blunt end of the car, lift up the sharp end with a trolley jack and hope that most of the coolant has drained out. I still have to crawl underneath and disconnect the hose from the reservoir to the circulating pump, to empty the reservoir.

I'm too old for this nonsense. I thought I had given up fixing cars?
cheers

tony

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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by mark_hetho »

I replaced the coolant in our imiev after a charger repair by draining from the motor.
https://i.imgur.com/hIn7nAU.jpg


(I ended up using a bigger spanner.)

Between opening that and the cap on the reservoir I think it got all the coolant out.

[ Edited Coulomb: added imgur image with [image=640] tag ] [mark_hetho: Thanks coulomb! I Fiddled with it a bit to get a sane size with no luck.]
Last edited by mark_hetho on Thu, 03 Sep 2020, 09:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by tonyw »

Thanks, Mark,

Didn't know about that plug. I'll open it tomorrow and see if any more comes out ;)

I got a lot out by lifting the front of the car, making it higher than the rear. Dunno how long it's going to take to refill it, with a bit more, then a bit more, then...

Still waiting for these damned caps. I found a whole lot of old high-voltage caps in a box (1500 and 2200 pF at 4 kV), but I'll wait a bit to see if the 1000's come soon. I at least want to start with the right values before I try experimenting.

Spent some time today making careful measurements of the inductances of the big choke and the transformers, along with their turns ratio. Might be useful later when I get to look at the waveforms and their switching spikes.
cheers

tony

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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by mark_hetho »

It looks like that plug might not exist on a 2013+, and there is a coolant hose.

Full details should be visible at http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/i-miev/on ... 700ENG.HTM

From memory I spent about 10 minutes refilling, but a lot of that was just letting the coolant circulate to be sure the last of the air was out. It took quite a bit of coolant in the first place, and then about 3/4 of the reservioir each air purge cycle.

I hope you get the charger side worked out.
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Re: Nuggetgalore's iMiEV charger failure

Post by tonyw »

Heh. I found the plug (opposite the inlet hose from the inverter) and tried to remove it with a 6 mm Allen key. Nothing doing. Having broken an Allen key many years ago in the same circumstances (and still wearing the scar), I abandoned the attempt.

The plug and the inlet hose are at the same level anyway, so there is little benefit to be gained (unless there is a baffle between them).

I refitted the charger into the car this afternoon. It's only waiting for the new caps and I can add them while the charger is in the car. Installing it now means I won't be in a hurry to get it going later, and make mistakes.

I had to recharge the auxiliary 12 V battery yesterday, it was down to ~11.9 V. Now back up at 13.6. Still need a trip to Bunnings for some neutral-cure silicone.

Come on, RS, where are my caps?
cheers

tony

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