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80km range imiev in winter

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mikedufty
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80km range imiev in winter

Post by mikedufty »

I had a good one today. Last night drove home at 100 with heater and air con on for demisting. Today I had to drive 20km on the freeway in ~40kph traffic to drop it off for a service. Left home with 38kmRR (9 bars), arrived 20km later with 59kmRR(7 bars).

On that basis the claimed 150km range might be doable at a steady 40kph.

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD »

Yes it sure is hard to predict the future.

Just use the energy gauge like the fuel gauge in a ice car.

Kurt

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Post by iDaVID »

offgridQLD wrote: Yes it sure is hard to predict the future.

Just use the energy gauge like the fuel gauge in a ice car.

Kurt


Ain't that the truth. Indeed, after a recharge this morning, my guess-o-meter is now @ 92 kms. It hasn't been in the 90s for some 5 months

And back to the thread topic, given the warmer weather of late, I have seen a consistent jump in the guess-o-meter's range of between 10 - 12 kms from a month ago.

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80km range imiev in winter

Post by mikedufty »

I actually think the guess-o-meter is really good and useful, so long as you understand how it works. Seems to be quite accurate and much more helpful than just the energy gauge.

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80km range imiev in winter

Post by Johny »

offgridQLD wrote: Yes it sure is hard to predict the future.

Just use the energy gauge like the fuel gauge in a ice car.

Kurt
Nah - it can be done - just take into account:
  • Gradient (for entire trip - including expected speed at particular - points)
    Battery condition and SOC
    Driver's current emotional state (and state during various sections of trip)
    Other road users (curiously large - effects emotional state)
    Random strange traffic light changes
    Temperature
    Tyre temperature
    Altitude
    Humidity

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80km range imiev in winter

Post by carnut1100 »

I have noticed a fair drop in my 2010...when I got it I squeezed 117 km off a charge, recently I was hypermiling it and didn't quite make 100.
I am estimating I have around 75% capacity but I haven't put canion on it as I don't have the dongle.

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Post by bmscott »

I got the dongle yesterday and managed to get Canion to connect - for a while - but I'm having some troubles sustaining the Bluetooth pairing AND keeping Canion running, so I'll have to do some fiddling to perhaps sort that out. (I have a OnePlus One with the latest Android 5.1-based OS, and some other phones in the house I can try too)

Tomorrow I'm going to run it past the Swinburne fast-charger station and maybe drop by the Mitsubishi dealership in Chadstone, which I'm told is where the Victoria-based iMievs were first sold, and see what I can learn. Hopefully get my spare remote key recoded to work, maybe find out more about range too.

I'd hoped I could run the heater or AC while charging in order to pre-heat/cool the car without affecting range, but I haven't managed to get that to work. Would also be nice to open or shut the windows remotely, somehow, though that's probably a security risk...

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Post by g4qber »

You possibly need to turn off Bluetooth audio streaming.
I've found this on nexus 7
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80km range imiev in winter

Post by Malm »

I think we could use what it charges from 50% to 55% to see how much range we lost as compared to a new one (using Canion).

Mine now charges between 540 to 550 Wh. I see in cars that I believe still have the range of a new one 620 to 630 Wh. Since I believe all of them can go to 0,0% SoC, I think I have 87% of my inicial range. Not bad for a car with almost 5 years.
I-MiEV owner from Portugal - 81000 km

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Post by bmscott »

g4qber wrote: You possibly need to turn off Bluetooth audio streaming.
I've found this on nexus 7


Yeah, that's part of it - although I had some teething probs just getting the audio and phone functions to pair in the first place, which eventually sorted themselves out.

I had a run yesterday with the phone presumably tracking everything - but after a 20-min leg of the drive, I stopped to check, and the phone was boiling hot! The internal temp was up around 120 degrees, far higher than I've ever seen it (it was not charging and was in the shade)

Since then I've tried just connecting to the car while it's charging, then putting the phone back in my pocket, and sure enough, after a few minutes it's hot again. Plus, Canion keeps crashing... so I've got some problems there, but I don't think it's with the dongle.

This isn't the right forum for all this stuff, however. Range-wise, despite having it for a few weeks now, driving like I drive, and having both dropped it to turtle mode (once) and also fully charged via 10A, 15A and ChaDeMo, but usually staying between 2 and 14 bars, I'm still never seeing more than about 80 on the estimate-o-matic - in fact sometimes it's down around 70ish.

If I'm reading Canion right, my SOC can get up to around 91%, so if the battery pack can still take that much juice shouldn't I have more estimated range...?
Last edited by bmscott on Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 08:52, edited 1 time in total.

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80km range imiev in winter

Post by iDaVID »

bmscott wrote:Yeah, that's part of it - although I had some teething probs just getting the audio and phone functions to pair in the first place, which eventually sorted themselves out.

I had a run yesterday with the phone presumably tracking everything - but after a 20-min leg of the drive, I stopped to check, and the phone was boiling hot! The internal temp was up around 120 degrees, far higher than I've ever seen it (it was not charging and was in the shade)

Since then I've tried just connecting to the car while it's charging, then putting the phone back in my pocket, and sure enough, after a few minutes it's hot again. Plus, Canion keeps crashing... so I've got some problems there, but I don't think it's with the dongle.

This isn't the right forum for all this stuff, however. Range-wise, despite having it for a few weeks now, driving like I drive, and having both dropped it to turtle mode (once) and also fully charged via 10A, 15A and ChaDeMo, but usually staying between 2 and 14 bars, I'm still never seeing more than about 80 on the estimate-o-matic - in fact sometimes it's down around 70ish.

If I'm reading Canion right, my SOC can get up to around 91%, so if the battery pack can still take that much juice shouldn't I have more estimated range...?


Your problems seem to be phone related as I didn't have any such issues when I did the Canion routine a few weeks ago.

Mind you I used a Samsung Tab4.

Having said that my guess-o-meter pretty much repeated the same results, after a full charge, as you're reporting during the later autumn to winter to early spring months.

It was only after it started warming up a bit where it got back to the higher 80s & 90s levels again.

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offgridQLD
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80km range imiev in winter

Post by offgridQLD »

If your not showing 100% SOC on canion then your battery isn't full. Keep it on charge until you see 100% SOC .

Kurt

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Post by offgridQLD »

91% isn't full. Canion will always show 100% SOC when it's full even on a old battery. Each % just represents less and less as the car ages.

You stopped charging 9% to early.

Kurt


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Post by bmscott »

Thanks for the added info. I'm in contact with the Canion authors about my issues, they're very responsive.

I'll probably find (or open up) a separate thread about some other things, but sticking to the range issue for now, I'm still a bit confused... this morning, I started out at 81km range, and after my 28km drive to work - in heavy stop-and-go traffic, which seemed actually to help - I pulled in at 71km!

I'd just assume the estimatron was misleading me, but the other odd factor is that I can charge up from almost empty to full in a bit over 4 hours, from a 10A plug. Isn't that considerably less than you'd expect for a healthy battery?

I've got a trip to Geelong coming up in a couple weeks - I'd like to take the iMiev (the charging points just about work out, geographically, even assuming ~85km range) but it's probably smarter to figure out why I'm seeing what I'm seeing first.

I tried to drop by and ask questions at Chadstone Mitsubishi (official Victorian iMiev place) last weekend, but the whole place was shut! Possibly due to the football game, I guess, but there were no signs... don't they have TV in the showrooms??

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Post by offgridQLD »

As we mentioned befor the RR gauge is just a estimation and a very rough one at that. It uses the last 25km or so of driving to estimate your future consumption and give you a RR number from that.

So it gets it wrong all the time (for example my RR gauge has shown anything from (60km up to 157km)RR after I have charged the battery to 100% SOC. So it's all over the place and my advice is don't use it to determine anything.

Just charge your car up until it wont charge any more. Green light comes on on the charger and it stops charging (dash gauge shows 16 bars). Then reset your trip meter on the dash to zero. Then drive the car as you usually do until you have 2 bars showing on the dash gauge. As soon as you hit two bars they will start flashing. At this stage your at 22% SOC. Note the KM on the trip meter and Consider this the range of your car.

For my 2012 Imiev this is roughly 100 - 110km befor this happens in mixed driving. Sure you can push out that last two bars and run the battery down to 10% SOC or so and use the last to bars (no bars - turtle) but that's not a good practice for battery, health and gives you no safety margin on range.


If your car only takes 4hrs to fully charge and I am assuming you are starting from only 2bars on the dash gauge or less and charging it all the way up to 16 bars on the dash gauge?

If so then yes that doesn't sound that good. Are you sure it's only charging at 10A 2200w? Not the full 3300w of the on board charger?

All of the mystery's can be worked out you need to give us some info/data to work with. Or your gong to be chasing your tail trying to work out where you stand with any capacity loss or range expectations.

You need to do a few controlled tests using the same start and end points to compare your car (even roughly) to others.

Edit:
Referencing where you started and ended on the 16 bar dash gauge along with KM traveled will have much more useful meaning to us to asses and compare your car to other Imievs. Quoting the RR meter has no meaning to us.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 04:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bmscott »

Unfortunately it'll be a while until I have the time to do any sort of consistent driving. I go to and from work every weekday, and am busy with the kids most weekends (generally even shorter trips) which is part of why the iMiev is ideal for my needs! Will try to schedule some kind of longer journey soon.

I'm definitely charging it from a 10A outlet - I have to run the charger cable through one of those Ampfibian current converter/limiters. I've started the charge from various points of discharge, but when I check it later (the difference between my arrival at home and bedtime is typically 4 hours) it's always on 16 bars - and often the charging process is stopped, when I'd rather end it a bar or two short of that as often as possible.

I agree, controlled tests are probably the only way to really be sure. Will have to try some this weekend, if I'm hoping to do the Geelong trip next weekend.

Meanwhile, here are some screenshots from Canion on my battery status - it's looking good as far as the cell balance, and Canion seems to run a lot better on my old Samsung tablet (upper photo) than on my newer Cyanogen phone (lower screenshot)...

Image

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Post by Johny »

I'd leave the car plugged in for a few hours for the next couple of charges then check it when fully charged with the Canion. That's not very good cell balance shown but I have a feeling that you took those screenshots while not fully charged.

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Post by offgridQLD »

"Unfortunately it'll be a while until I have the time to do any sort of consistent driving"

You don't need to do long trips. (example) If you do 20km each day. Charge it up 100% full and drive it for 4 days without charging. Yu just need to drive it from 100% full (16 bars) to 2 bars without charging it between. Do it over as many days as it takes.

You don't need to do any special kind of driving just drive it in the locations and the way you normally drive it.

I cant tell much from the Canion shots. The 2nd one looks like it was disconnected as SOC reads 0%. The first shot looks like you have ok cell balance 10MV at just over 1/2 full. So I guess you can rule out any wildly imbalanced cells

Another comparison is to take the car down to two bars (if you arrive home with more bars and don't want to drive it or don't have time. Just wack the heater on full and wind the windows down) this will knock a few bars and bring it down to two bars in no time.

Then charge the car up to 100% SOC but put a power/energy meter on the 10A socket (available for under $30) then you will have a KWH number for your battery capacity from 20% SOC back to 100% SOC and can compare that to others.

Kurt






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Post by offgridQLD »

"
That's not very good cell balance shown but I have a feeling that you took those screenshots while not fully charged. "

It's only 10mv on the top pic and 15mv on the other pic. That's normal. typically they will trim to as good as 5mv at 100% SOC but 5mv is the resolution of the gauge so can't expect much more.

the Canion Graph can be a bit misleading at first glance due to the auto scale feature that zooms in visually making the discrepancy look large.

I wouldn't be to fussed unless they were 50mv or more and even then only when at 100% SOC

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 09:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny »

offgridQLD wrote:I wouldn't be to fussed unless they were 50mv or more and even then only when at 100% SOC

Kurt
Yeah I know I'm being picky but we're used to seeing 4.05V. Just a bit unusual but you are right, I think it wasn't at 100% SOC.

Who was it that had the dud pack and replaced it then had to get it recalibrated? It'd be good to know what the dealer did.

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Post by g4qber »

2020 Model 3 SR+ - k kms 18
2009 Tango - http://www.evalbum.com/211

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Post by Johny »

Interesting article. Also noted in the article that even Tesla isn't immune.

I log every charge with AH used and distance travelled to calculate range at 80% DOD in my 12kWh DIY EV. Graphed here. It's pretty easy to see the coldest and warmest months. Melbourne temp range is around 5 (July) to 30 (Jan/Feb) degrees C.

The data pre Oct 2013 is a bit erratic as I settled into a driving style.
The graph pretty indicative of what I have read about the range vs temp. for most EVs.

Sorry if I've posted this before.

Image

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Post by bmscott »

offgridQLD wrote: I cant tell much from the Canion shots. The 2nd one looks like it was disconnected as SOC reads 0%. The first shot looks like you have ok cell balance 10MV at just over 1/2 full. So I guess you can rule out any wildly imbalanced cells

Another comparison is to take the car down to two bars [...]
Then charge the car up to 100% SOC but put a power/energy meter on the 10A socket (available for under $30) then you will have a KWH number for your battery capacity from 20% SOC back to 100% SOC and can compare that to others.


I managed to run it down to almost turtle status last night - one blinking bar, yet the SOC showed 14% as I stopped. Coincidentally, there was a power outage in my area as I arrived so I couldn't put it right back on charge, thus I couldn't test the time to full as it occurred after I went to sleep.

But I did begin this morning with 100% SoC - forgot to check the cell-by-cell charge status, but I did see 81km on the crystal ball meter. After ~25 of my 28km drive into work, it was still at about 80! (note the first 5kms are mostly downhill, but the rest is pretty normal)

Here are some more screenshots from the start and end of my morning drive - it seems as though the battery is pretty good, the range meter is pretty crap, and now all I really need to do is time a full bottom-to-top charge (I did confirm the charging rate averages 6.9A FWIW)
Image

Two other things to note - I've now seen random crashes with Canion on 3 different devices, and am in conversation with the authors about this. Also, note the device battery drain shown in the screenshots - I think my phone batt worked harder than the car's did...
Last edited by bmscott on Wed, 07 Oct 2015, 08:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD »

All looks good.

The screen shots of canion we want to see are the (Trip Timer) screen that shows (Whr/km) and (WH OUT) and (WH reg) (Distance traveled) that's all the useful info. The dash screen just shows what the car dash is displaying....not much.

Yes canion can be a bit crashy but over all its a bit pot luck. Some times I go days without a crash others 3 in one trip. Try not to overwhelm your device. close all other apps including wifi. Then you can even turn off some of the features in cannon that you don't use like maps and so on.

I know now why your car always shows just 80km RR after a full 100% charge. You mentioned you have a (5 min down hill section) from your home. This is a 5 min uphill section befor you charge and the RR meter thinks all your trip after you recharge is going to be like that (up hill) so is way off in its prediction.

I see the same thing on my 2012 when I stay at our place in the hills. About 80km RR prediction at best because it thinks we are going to climb the hinterland hill all the time.

Then back in Brisbane on the weekdays I get about 130km RR prediction on average once charged.

Just ignore the RR meter.

Kurt


Last edited by offgridQLD on Wed, 07 Oct 2015, 09:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bmscott »

offgridQLD wrote:I know now why your car always shows just 80km RR after a full 100% charge. You mentioned you have a (5 min down hill section) from your home. This is a 5 min uphill section befor you charge and the RR meter thinks all your trip after you recharge is going to be like that (up hill) so is way off in its prediction.

I see the same thing on my 2012 when I stay at our place in the hills. About 80km RR prediction at best because it thinks we are going to climb the hinterland hill all the time.


INTERESTING - and THANK YOU - this makes sense. I also wondered why I only had estimated 80km range after a stay at the Swinburne CHAdeMo station, until later on I realized it probably only charged me up to 80% to save wear and tear (which explains why the fast charger's performance is always described as "up to 80% in just X minutes"...)

This is potentially excellent news, especially if I can find someplace down on the flat to confirm the idea.

I've reached out to the place in Geelong which I need to get to next weekend, in hopes they're willing to let me plug in for a few hours (the nearest network charger is 8km away and I'd really need the car to be charging while I'm watching my kid compete, not waiting 'til afterward to charge and then trying to find something to do for the next ~4 hours...)

Apparently I've caused quite a tizzy because they've had to talk to the regional manager or something... which I kind of expected. It's not something you can just say "no" to in this day and age, but it's still a new idea to a lot of places. And I'm no longer at an age where I enjoy dealing with the early-adopter side effects like this - not to mention, my car is FIVE YEARS OLD so it's hardly a new idea!

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