New to the forum & new I-miev

Mitsubishi EV Interest Group
User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 27 Oct 2014, 17:28

Record trip home yesterday from the sunshine coast hinterland.

Total trip distance 102km, via the freeway air conditioning on low 80% of the way before I turned it off as it got to cold as the sun went down. 3 people in the car + light luggage perhaps 25kg. Just drove along with traffic following the flow of cars with the odd burst of full power now and then to negotiate situations. Lights on for the last 20min of the trip.

Arrived home with....

SOC 36.5%

RR 42km

91whr /km /5whr-km Aircon.

Image

Image


It's surprising how frugal the Imiev is



Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 27 Oct 2014, 06:32, edited 1 time in total.

Greg partridge
Groupie
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun, 01 Apr 2012, 16:19
Real Name: Greg partridge
Location: Dural
Contact:

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by Greg partridge » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 03:04

I went to start my I miev that I had owned for just 6 days only for it to fail on me. Ryde Mitsubishi reassured me that the 12 volt batteries in all of their imievs had been replaced as they had previously been sitting in a holding yard for six months. NRMA tested it and surprise surprise it was ****. He also pointed out that the date code on the battery indicated that it was 4 years old. No wonder used car salesman get such a bad reputation

User avatar
Adverse Effects
Senior Member
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sat, 01 Jan 2011, 03:30
Real Name: Adverse Effects
Location: Brisbane

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by Adverse Effects » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 03:30

Greg partridge wrote:Ryde Mitsubishi reassured me that the 12 volt batteries in all of their imievs had been replaced


yep with the 1/2 dead one out of the I-miev beside it and the one they took out of it went in to the next one in line

they didnt lie

lots of years ago i did some work in a car yard never again
Last edited by Adverse Effects on Tue, 28 Oct 2014, 16:31, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by acmotor » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 03:32

O the irony.
A 21st century vehicle with 300kg of high tech Lithiums on board gets let down by an ancient 12V lead acid battery...... With the aid of a used car salesman !

iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

Peter C in Canberra
Senior Member
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun, 27 Jul 2008, 04:05
Real Name: Peter Campbell
Location: Canberra

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by Peter C in Canberra » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 03:38

acmotor wrote: O the irony.
A 21st century vehicle with 300kg of high tech Lithiums on board gets let down by an ancient 12V lead acid battery...... With the aid of a used car salesman !

I have noticed some people selling 12V Li batteries to replace starter batteries in ICE cars. I wonder if one of those would be a direct replacement.
Daihatsu charade conversion 2009-18, demo iMiEV 2013-present, used Holden Volt 2018-present, on the ACT's 100%-renewable-by-2020 electricity.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3686
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by coulomb » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 04:02

Peter C in Canberra wrote: I have noticed some people selling 12V Li batteries to replace starter batteries in ICE cars. I wonder if one of those would be a direct replacement.

I wonder how well matched the typical fifty amp automotive alternator is for a lithium auxiliary battery. I think the lithium battery would overheat the alternator (not being used to a battery that can take maximum charge current for an hour), and the alternator would overcharge the lithium battery (trying to float charge it at too high a voltage, if it even tries to float charge, and if it would even know when to stop bulk charging).

The iMiEV's DC/DC may be better than the average alternator, but still. Does anyone have experience using a lithium auxiliary battery?
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by acmotor » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 04:02

Yes ..... But there is a problem.

The 12V Lithiums come with a very stern condition.... Do not over discharge i.e. take any cell below 2.5V or you will likely kill the battery .... and possibly create a dangerous situation if the battery is recharged.
If a cell is taken too low in voltage or reversed then it may go S/C and result in the other cells going to nearly 5V if the battery is recharged. Fire risk.
This all assumes there is no BMS on the 12V battery, that can disconnect load or charging, as is the case with 12V vehicle systems. A BMS could be added of course. The Winston 12V have no BMS on them for instance.

A lithium battery does not like being held at 100% SOC as 12V aux battery is ... In normal operation.

A 12V lithium battery would need to be mechanically protected in an accident otherwise it could post a fire risk compared to a wet lead acid that tends to be more docile with a cracked case and shorted terminals.

I guess Mitsubishi and Nissan considered all this and other points as they both went with old tech lead acids for the 12V battery.
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2599
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by weber » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 04:03

acmotor wrote: O the irony.
A 21st century vehicle with 300kg of high tech Lithiums on board gets let down by an ancient 12V lead acid battery...... With the aid of a used car salesman !

Ha ha ha. So true. Well said. Image

Just as my vehicle, with hundreds of 21st century microchips, and hundreds of lines of C and assembly-language between the accelerator pedal and the wheels, was recently let down by a 179-year-old computing device -- an electromagnetic relay.

Mind you, its squirrel-cage induction motor was invented 125 years ago, and that's still an awesome bit of kit that is never likely to let me down.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

Peter C in Canberra
Senior Member
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun, 27 Jul 2008, 04:05
Real Name: Peter Campbell
Location: Canberra

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by Peter C in Canberra » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 04:08

weber wrote:
Mind you, its squirrel-cage induction motor was invented 125 years ago, and that's still an awesome bit of kit that is never likely to let me down.

I feel for the poor squirrels!
Daihatsu charade conversion 2009-18, demo iMiEV 2013-present, used Holden Volt 2018-present, on the ACT's 100%-renewable-by-2020 electricity.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by acmotor » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 04:11

Andrew has been running a 60Ah 12V lithium from EVworks for some time in his ICE.
Great for cold starts and sound systems so I'm told.

http://www.evworks.com.au/winston-batte ... l-12v-60ah
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3686
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by coulomb » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 04:13

acmotor wrote: Andrew has been running a 60Ah 12V lithium from EVworks for some time in his ICE.

So did he have to adjust anything, or just replace the lead?
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by acmotor » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 04:27

Just bolted it in. It is sold as a direct replacement... With the don't run flat proviso.
Definitely wakes the starter motor up !

Alternators are naturally current limited and the battery can handle everything sent its way.
Internal resistance is not unlike a large lead acid battery.

In theory, at 4.2vpc max that is 16.8V. Vehicle regulates at 14.5 cold down to 13.8 after some time.
At 2.5vpc min is 10V.   Most sound systems shut off at 10.5V to avoid battery run flat.

There is still potential to over discharge with lights or storage and the user must be mindful.
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

User avatar
carnut1100
Groupie
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue, 24 Feb 2009, 16:39
Real Name: Greg Milligan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by carnut1100 » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 02:59

I've been charging my2010 from a 10A socket for twelve months and 17,000km now.......

Greg partridge
Groupie
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun, 01 Apr 2012, 16:19
Real Name: Greg partridge
Location: Dural
Contact:

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by Greg partridge » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 03:21

If there is a IMiev owner in the Sydney metro area who would be prepared to meet up with me at some stage could they PM me. I have a 2010 model.

User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 03:42

"Andrew has been running a 60Ah 12V lithium from EVworks for some time in his ICE.
Great for cold starts and sound systems so I'm told."

I have been running 20ah of headway lifepo4 on my tractor for a few years. I just got sick of having to put it on a trickle charger or end up with short lived lead acid batterys. So one day in desperation with a sick lead acid letting me down. I riged up the headways (was ment to be temporary ) but two years on the diesle starts like a champ and   the untinator is keeping it healthy and no self discharge.

The only downfall of the lifepo4 was the weight of the lead battery was a handy counter weight up front So now it,s more prone to wheelys.

Kurt

User avatar
Adverse Effects
Senior Member
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sat, 01 Jan 2011, 03:30
Real Name: Adverse Effects
Location: Brisbane

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by Adverse Effects » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 06:02

offgridQLD wrote:now it,s more prone to wheelys.

Kurt


Image Image and the problem with that is?

a few besablocks on the front will fix that tho

User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 19:28

Ok curiosity got the better of me and my battery health program.The 20% DOD rule went out the window today (just had to do it once to see).

After driving around all week I got my pack down to 3 bars. I then set out today to bring it down to turtle mode. Just once and then measure the KWH AC to recharge it again to 100% SOC.

After a lot of full power runs up every hill I could find and several laps around the suburb. I dropped 1 bar and had two bars flashing on the gauge (canion reports 22% SOC) After several more laps around the suburb I was getting sick of it.

So i headed head up Mt Nebo road just behind my house. Zipping up the windy road up the hill with lots of full throttle action watching the canion cell voltage log with all 88 cells within 10mv of each other and still at a healthy voltage I kept going. After several Km I had one bar remaining and about 15% SOC on canion.

At this point I thought I would burn of the last bar around my house. So I headed back down the hill. Hey this thing doesn't want to empty its self. Regen was trying to pump up 48kw back into the bank every time I let of the peddle or braked down the mountain. That's not what I wanted so I slipped it out of gear to avoid Regen.

Once I drove back home it took lots of laps around the hilly streets to bring the SOC to zero bars (about 11 or 12% SOC on canion) but the voltage was still good and the car kept going . Lap after lap as the SOC slowly dropped 8.5% and finally I see the turtle for the first time. All pumped up expecting a limp home 800m and a few streets to my house . Though I was surprised the car still pulled almost as usual defiantly very drivable in 60kmh zones.

So what did I learn.

1, you would have to be really trying to run your battery flat and leave your self stranded. Come on guys you get a warning at two bars and it takes a real effort and a silly amount of racing around in a hilly area trying to burn power to turtle it.

2, The turtle comes out to play at 8.5% SOC via Canion.

3, Running low on a EV is way less stressful than running low on a ICE car. I feel with OBD apps and a great BMS the EV - Imiev gave me a accurate and predictable guide to my energy/fuel reserves. Unlike a ice car that just flashes a red light (with unknown reserves)

4, The Two bars on the energy gauge flashing (22%SOC) (that I take as a warning to fill up ASAP before it hits 20% SOC) is a very generous reserve.

I felt bad for the car ...perhaps I should give it a wash on the weekend to make it feel better Image Anyhow I don't plan on doing it again but I had to do it once.

It's on charge now and I will report back with the KWH from the wall to 100% SOC and + 8.5% for total battery capacity.

Dash showing -- RR and no bars on the energy meter (turtle light on)
Image

20mv variation between the runt cell and the strongest one at 8.5% SOC turtle.All cells above 3.6v
Image

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 08:52, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by acmotor » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 20:13

It is all very well pushing the SOC down when you are within pushing distance of home. I'm often 2 bars from the next power point.
.... and you didn't go to 0% charge, just to onset of turtle. Need to do it again properly this time Image
You understand the 8.5% is a BMS estimate and the runt cell may pull you up short as the average energy remaining would perhaps assume no runt cell.
edit: and as you (not before) and I don't go into this territory, the BMS may not know about a runt cell.

Yes, it is amazing how the cells are still so level and the acceleration punch still there at low SOC.
Good demonstration that the bottom balance folk have got it all wrong !
Top balance rules. Image

Now the other screen print from canion of interest is the cell voltages when there is 160A discharge occurring while at turtle or nearer canion 0% SOC. The at rest cell voltages tell me less about the relative cell capacities.

We await your charging report. Good info by the way. Image
Last edited by acmotor on Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 09:16, edited 1 time in total.
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

mikedufty
Senior Member
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue, 02 Dec 2008, 00:15
Real Name: Michael Dufty
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by mikedufty » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 20:16

How well did the range remaining display tally with the turtle point. Did you have to go further to get to turtle than the range remaining suggested? I guess all that screaming up hills would mess with the RR a bit.

User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 20:47

"
How well did the range remaining display tally with the turtle point. Did you have to go further to get to turtle than the range remaining suggested? I guess all that screaming up hills would mess with the RR a bit. "

I never look at the RR guessing meter anymore as its so in accurate that it's not worth looking at. Though it went to 0km RR before you run out as you can see by the pics.Canions SOC in 0.5% increments is my fuel gauge and a average of 100whr km from the battery is so consistent I can know my range seat of the pants guess. Not that I ever push for every last whr from the bank.

Acmotor, Yes I know the cell voltage under load is a good guide to how the cells are doing. All I can say is I had canion displaying them in live mode and there was a nice clean straight line when you punched the accelerator peddle and no worrying voltage average. I'm sure the car would have made it to 0% SOC. I really don't think I have any runt cells that are limiting the battery's usable capacity at least not down to turtle 8.5%. I have a feeling turtle comes on when the BMS-(canion) shows/predicts 8.5% SOC no matter what the cell voltages are at. It's the same with the 16 bars of the energy meter they all come and go like clockwork based on the % SOC divisions (each division isn't even but they all come at go at the same corresponding % each time). I think limiting/limp mode and a drop in power might not be related to turtle or activated by turtle but a set voltage the cells, or a cell must be at to trigger it. As my power wasn't restricted that i could tell.

I think for people who do a regular low SOC back to full SOC trip (rather than lots of small random and varying charges with very few 20% SOC - 100% SOC cycles )the BMS would be reasonable in sink with the battery. A regular charging pattern and stable weather conditions (as in (not charging at 2C and discharging at 35C) perhaps even a regular driving style(mine is on the most part very even 100whr/m +/- a few %. Then I think the bms will do a good job over all in its prediction.Most likely with a bit of conservatism.

+1 on being impressed with the punch the battery's have at a low SOC on paper it dosnt add up amps x volts and the volts do drop so not sure how exactly they achieve it with out upping the current.

Like I have mentioned before the BMS is the master you have to comply with what it is letting you do to your battery so as long as you agree with your BMS and your happy with the outcome when it pulls the pin or flashes turtle then it's happy days Image It more or less did what I thought it would (actually I thought turtle came on at 10.5%) but know I know 8.5%.
Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 10:30, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 23:04

Acmotor ,
          A bit more data. The lowest cell voltage today (was when I was stabbing at the accelerator near empty was 310v under load / 88 cell - 3.522 volts pr cell average at 8.5% soc. With about 150A being sucked out.

I was watching the graph as this was happening and it was a nice straight line.

I think its reasonable to think that even at 0% SOC there would be a bit in reserve in the cells and the bms is going to be a bit conservative with what it calls 0% SOC.


Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 12:06, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 01 Nov 2014, 05:31

Ok numbers are in for the recharge from 8.5% SOC

15.76 kwh

+ 8.5% = 17.09kwh

Image

Kurt


User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by Johny » Sat, 01 Nov 2014, 16:16

Your pack really is in excellent condition.
Not taking it below 20% is paying off .

Peter C in Canberra
Senior Member
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun, 27 Jul 2008, 04:05
Real Name: Peter Campbell
Location: Canberra

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by Peter C in Canberra » Sat, 01 Nov 2014, 17:07

Johny wrote: Your pack really is in excellent condition.
Not taking it below 20% is paying off .

If the battery behaviour is like the Li batteries you can buy for DIY conversions, I would avoid taking them really low. The DIY sort tend to have specifications like 1000 recharges from 10%, or 2000 recharges from 20% or 5000 recharges from 30% (not exactly those numbers but along those lines). IE you could expect a longer useful life out of them by not taking them really low if you can avoid it.
Peter C
Daihatsu charade conversion 2009-18, demo iMiEV 2013-present, used Holden Volt 2018-present, on the ACT's 100%-renewable-by-2020 electricity.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

New to the forum & new I-miev

Post by acmotor » Sat, 01 Nov 2014, 17:53

Kurt, just recapping.... a new pack would take 16.5kWh from wall on 10A charge from vehicle drive refusal. This seems to be a relatively around the world number as I understand it.

The unquestionable number that you have measured is 15.76kWh on a recharge from turtle onset. This seems well in keeping.
The extrapolation/guesstimate is the 8.5% that canion is offering on a pack that has never been that low before.
It is perhaps a case of capacity calibration ?

iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

Post Reply