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Post by Gabz » Thu, 15 May 2014, 04:07

the leaf has other mod cons like cruise control and gps and rev camera

The warranty is now 5 years or 100,000km against anything below 9 bars. 72.5% is apparently 9 bars

Read more: http://ozleaf.proboards.com/thread/343/ ... y-coverage

but to my knowledge the LEAF doesn't air cool the battery pack like the I-miev does.
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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Thu, 15 May 2014, 04:20

Gabz wrote: the leaf has other mod cons like cruise control and gps and rev camera ...

My iMiEV has a GPS and a reverse camera was available as an accessory for the eclipse brand stereo/navagator thingy. I had the camera added and it is very handy. If you didn't have the GPS and camera it is easy to add for much less than paying many thousands extra for a car that has it preinstalled.
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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 15 May 2014, 04:36

I do think the leaf has a more substatial interior. That can be a good thing for some and perhaps not for others. The load carrying capacity is more of a hatchback vs sedan issue than leaf vs Imiev situation.

Not having active cooling of the battery and a lithium chemistry that is sensitive to heat even if it is covered under warranty is the biggest turn off for me.

Other comparisons with motor power output and battery capacity can be bit misleading as the leaf is a bigger and heavier car.

That said I am sure the leaf would have a slightly longer range and should be slightly faster.

I have sat in but never driven a leaf so I can't compare the drive and handling. I should really take one for a test drive so I can have a valid opinion how how they drive in comparison to the I Miev.

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Post by carnut1100 » Thu, 15 May 2014, 06:03

I have driven both, given a choice at the time I would have gone for a Leaf....
Slightly more pep although neither are slouches.
I like the Leaf styling a little more.
Smartphone app to control charging, heater precharge, ability to set the charger to turn off at 80%, cruise control, Better stereo and nav, full climate control, Better instrumentation, more room, and the big one is five seats.
I liked the Leaf more, but at $40k new and $35k for a demo, vs $19,500 for a Mitsubishi demo, the choice was clear...

Right now though I'd really like tat extra seat.......
I now have a couple of stepdaughters...family outings can just be done in an imiev now.
When the next member of the family arrives we will need both cars for family trips....but a Leaf would do.

Perhaps we will trade one of the Mitsubishis fit a secondhand Leaf when one comes up in a year or so....

Either that or I'm going to have to revisit the conversion route.......electric Tarago anyone?

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 15 May 2014, 11:49

A home built van or some kind of 7 seater option. Wouldn't be a impossible option for a home build. Reliable full featured home build of that size sure wouldn't be cheap.

Wouldn't it be great if the tesla model S was a afordable option in Au.that has 7 seat capacity.

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Post by Troglodyte » Thu, 15 May 2014, 12:34

I've looked at the conversion route a few times and always found the cost & hassles with the bureaucrazies rendered it totally unviable. Among other issues, companies like Nissan / Mitsubishi / Renault / Tesla / Mercedes will always have infinitely better buying power than Joe Bloggs. Personally I believe we'd be better off agitating for the federal muppets to abolish the local car industry protection racket so its possible / feasible / practical to import EVs from the Old Dart (significant numbers sold there, RHD, generally ADR compliant). A while back I found a nice low kilometer 2 year old Kangoo ZE in London going for $AU12,000 odd but Renault Australia wouldn't have a bar of me importing it. Without their blessing, import costs would have been insane even if I'd figured a way past the protection racket. OK if I'd live in the UK for a year or so I could use that loophole but 12 months of that place would give me the stirks. There are numerous Berlingo Electronique vans, a few electric Sprinters & Renault cars available in Europe but again they aren't old enough to be practical imports under present rules.

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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Thu, 15 May 2014, 13:25

carnut1100 wrote: I have driven both, given a choice at the time I would have gone for a Leaf....
Slightly more pep although neither are slouches...Right now though I'd really like tat extra seat....

I also have driven both and agree, the Leaf is a bit peppier but the iMiEV is entirely adequate for performance. People also get a bit more range in the Leaf but having come from a conversion with 70km range (anxious after 60km), having 100km in the iMiEV seems luxurious. The nearly $40K asking price for the Leaf was out of our range. Only a little over half that for the iMiEV was in our range. For someone else only 4 seats could put the iMiEV out of the question but others might never use the the back seat for more than shopping. A 5th seat would only have been useful for us twice in the last 6 months but we have two other cars with 5 seats so not worth another $15K to get an extra seat in both EVs. Not really interested to have the car talk to my phone though our iMiEV can do that.
The iMiEV is more efficient in kWh/km.
Both are good cars with pros and cons.
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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 15 May 2014, 14:00

All good points.

The failure of the Imiev in Australia and the subsequent slashing of the price to close to 1/2 the RRP for new old stock and the knock on effect that that had on the 2nd hand price has for the first time given people a option for a brand new OEM ev for 25k or a low km near new OEM ev for 18 - 20K.

This opportunity gave some EV dreamers a viable option at a price they could justify. Perhaps 5 - 10 years before another pure EV would be available in the sub 25k mark in Au.

I will look at it like this. When another new 100km range OEM BEV is available in AU for under 25k. I will make the comparison to the Imiev then. It will be interesting to see how long it is before the 25k I payed for our new Imiev is challenged by another ev at the same or lower price. My guess is 8 years + .

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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Thu, 15 May 2014, 14:14

Yes, the ½ price iMiEV seems likely to be a deal that won't be back for a while. That is why we jumped. Over 5 years ago I did a conversion expecting to get 10 years from it before buying a $20K commercial EV, new or more likely second-hand a few years old.
I find it heartening that the Outlander PHEV is about the same price as the iMiEV was but has two iMiEV drive trains, and the smelly bits, a similar battery and more of the toys people seem to like in a $50K car. That seems to suggest that an iMiEV-like car could be commercial for quite a bit less now.
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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Thu, 15 May 2014, 14:20

Yes, the ½ price iMiEV seems likely to be a deal that won't be back for a while. That is why we jumped. Over 5 years ago I did a conversion expecting to get 10 years from it before buying a $20K commercial EV, new or more likely second-hand a few years old. It seems my estimate of almost 6 years ago is still pretty much on track.
I find it heartening that the Outlander PHEV is about the same price as the iMiEV was but has two iMiEV drive trains, and the smelly bits, a similar battery and more of the toys people seem to like in a $50K car. That seems to suggest that an iMiEV-like car could be commercial for quite a bit less now.
Still 11 iMiEVs for around $19-25K on Carsales.com.au.
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Post by Troglodyte » Thu, 15 May 2014, 14:37

The original $50,000 odd price was utterly ridiculous. Whatever lunatic dreamed up that idea needed the services of a good shrink. When its all said and done, the MiEV is only a kei car that realistically should have had a sticker price around the low 20s. Arguments about new technology are meaningless because there is nothing in it that hasn't been around for yonks. Same goes for the Leaf which isn't even selling at $40,000 (apart from the odd company fleet). To my way of thinking it really should be marketed at $30,000 max. I suspect the 'REAL' reason for excessive pricing has a lot to do with the lack of after-sales income from parts & servicing.

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 15 May 2014, 14:41

I think it's possible that we would see a Imiev equivalent in the low 30K RRP mark in 2 years or so but some time before it's in the 25k drive away range.

Things just cost more in AU.

This is what I get today mid 2014 if I spec my car and my post code into mitsubishi's web page

Image

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Post by Troglodyte » Thu, 15 May 2014, 14:51

I believe Kia is planning to drop a $25,000 Corolla sized BEV on the OZ market sometime this year and other sources report there is something comparable from China in the wind. Once there are a couple of alternatives its likely Nissan will come to the party & other 'watchers' will presumably come to the realization that they need to sharpen their pencils before whacking on stupid price stickers.

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 15 May 2014, 15:26

Be careful there are a lot of press releases from companies about ev's that are in the works that never arrive.

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Post by Troglodyte » Thu, 15 May 2014, 15:29

No doubt however it will only take a couple that do find their way here wearing a halfway intelligent price tag to give the market a sorely needed number twelve in the nether regions.

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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Thu, 15 May 2014, 15:47

offgridQLD wrote: Be careful there are a lot of press releases from companies about ev's that are in the works that never arrive.
Kurt

Yes. When I started my conversion in 2008, car companies had already for several years been saying they would be bringing out an EV 'next year'. I took the gamble that it would take several years longer before the first arrived, and that then it would be at least another several years before there would be an affordable option, say around about now at the very earliest. It would have been good to have been wrong but I wasn't.
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Post by Troglodyte » Thu, 15 May 2014, 16:09

As I've said elsewhere, I've considered a conversion several times however its simply not viable because of the batteries I need to get an acceptable range. Its probably OK for city commuters who only travel 20k per day, but us bushies need close on 200k minimum. I have scads of solar electrons in several locations so running cost of an EV will be negligible .... can even fit a 3kva generator in the back of a Leaf for top-ups on longer trips (actually it can fit two of the things comfortably) but I'm not happy with the present $40,000 price stickers or even $35,000 odd for a demonstrator but $25,000 for a three year old one is almost reasonable. At least one can take a Leaf on a couple of hundred kilometer drive without needing a visit to chiropractor and / or physiotherapist. Thats not necessarily a criticism of the MiEV, it just was intended for zapping around Tokyo rather than dicing with land speed record petrol heads on the M1. Obviously some folk don't mind a bit of pain and suffering (eg those wont to ride deadly treadlies) but I appreciate at least basic creature comforts. Mind you I have in my collection a Suzuki Sierra that is one of the most uncomfortable vehicles ever conceived but at least it serves the purpose for which it was intended (unlike 98% of fourbys)

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Post by carnut1100 » Thu, 15 May 2014, 16:58

I actually find that after a ten hour shift in a bus jumping into the imiev for the trip home feels like heaven.......

Kia is releasing an EV version of the Soul in the US...it wouldn't take much to bring it here.
Remains to be seen if they will...

Holden could bring the Spark EV here no worries...we already sell Sparks here and the electric one has A Volt motor and batteries anyway...but they have no plans to bring it here.

Now if we had a Norway style incentive system...............


I dropped the conversion idea when demo imievs became cheaper than a comparable conversion...but as there are no EV people movers available I am now considering it again...
There are ways to make it cheaper now, those secondhand Leaf cells from the USA for instance, and the possibility of hacking a Prius transaxle for the motor...

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Post by Troglodyte » Thu, 15 May 2014, 17:08

Now if we had a Norway style incentive system...............

Until / unless we give the flick to knuckle-dragging neanderthals in Canberra thats a non-event, however it may well be that the budget is their epitaph.

Cost of conversions is only one problem, another is convincing mentally deprived muppets the result isn't going to do a Hindenburg. I have a VERY short fuse where those imbeciles are concerned .... typically have at least two ombudsman issues underway at any one time.

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 15 May 2014, 18:57

" At least one can take a Leaf on a couple of hundred kilometer drive without needing a visit to chiropractor and / or physiotherapist"

For one your not going to be doing a couple of hundred KM drive in a leaf in one go. Even more so in one thats several years old and has lost some of its battery capacity.

Have you actually even sat in and driven a Imiev? Perhaps you have a impression of the interior space that is not the reality. They have more headroom than A leaf and Im 6ft tall its its comfortable. Its not a 7 series BMW but as for the size of the car giving you issues with comfort I don't think there will be any issue vs a leaf.

Why would you want to run a stinky generator or carry one around with you.

It's fine to fantasize about what you want and at what price but the reality is it isn't available. It's no ones fault and If you don't like what is on offer. Then you have two options. One build your own. Or two buy what's available. If you can't build or buy what you want/need at the price you can afford then your out of the race.

You're just going to have to accept your a consumer and you're at the mercy of what is offered to you at the price they list. You cant have it all on a budget.

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Post by Johny » Thu, 15 May 2014, 20:00

When speaking of LEAF battery heating problems, keep in mind that the iMiev and LEAF share a fairly common battery chemistry. I also was led to believe that the iMiev "active temperature management" only kicks in during fast charging.
A reason that iMiev battery issues are not reported from hot climates such as Arizona might be due to the number on the street.

Image

Source: http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:05

It only takes small tweaks of the chemistry to see big advantages in how they handle heat as is demonstrated in the video link a few posts back. I don't think the two cells are common enough in their final makeup and layout to say they would both perform the same.

The Imiev is more or less over from 2012 - 2013. So I wouldn't compare sales numbers anymore mitsubishi has more or less forgotten about it. Its time for a new model I think.

While it's not Arizona. There are some people in QLD and in WA who are using them in some hot climates for several years with little depletion Definitely not the 25+ % that has been reported with the leaf in Arizona. The I miev would be down to 75 km range by then and it would be very noticeable Even 10% would be very noticeable.

I guess the ultimate comparison will be comparing both cars from the same location in a few years.

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Post by Troglodyte » Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:15

Running a generator wouldn't be my first choice, however its still a better option for the odd longer trip than burning dinosaur juice for the whole journey. Maybe one day the price of batteries will halve so its economically practical to fit sufficient for a 250k trip between recharges. In any case the volume of dinosaur juice consumed by a little constant speed Honda would be infinitely less than an ICE vehicle would consume over a couple of hundred kilometers. There is also a possibility of making a bit of ethanol, thereby reducing further the contribution to middle-east terrorism.

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 15 May 2014, 21:24

Sounds like a hybrid might be more your cup of tea.

Can we tone down the political rage a little in this thread   Image

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Post by acmotor » Fri, 16 May 2014, 05:27

You know, the most significant thing to me us the 4,600 Tesla model S sold in the first 4 months of 2014 on that table that Johny posted.
The model S strikes me as a second generation production electric with a lot of the wish list items ticked.... Size, performance, range, safety and advanced production technology. Isn't it fantastic that it is being so well received !!!

The leaf hangs in there because it is reasonably priced on the US. The iMiEV represents a change in transport thinking that the US and OZ are not ready for so the larger more energy hungry leaf meets at least some of the market expectation.
The trainer wheel hybrids interestingly ( deservedly ? Image ) are not making the market penetration despite the significant fuel savings. It just goes to show, if you can buy a real EV then the hybrids are not going to cut it.

Just wait for the next generation from Mitsubishi and Nissan. Oh and I think BMW is just playing catch up with a 5 years behind the market gen 1 EV.

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iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

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