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Post by jonescg » Mon, 17 Feb 2014, 17:00

All we wanted to know was how far can you go at highway speeds. So far, this is the best number we can work with. The more correct option would be to go for a ~100 km drive at 100 km/h and see how far you get. And book a tow-truck Image

But it did allude to 'roughly how far can an iMiEV go at 100 km/h' and that's really all we were after. How efficient the charge process was is irrelevant to answering this question.

It is relevant to how quickly you can recharge, but that's another issue.
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Post by Johny » Mon, 17 Feb 2014, 17:05

acmotor wrote: Sorry to disagree guys. Plug to wheel is what counts otherwise you are putting your head in the sand.
The only reason I care about wall to wheel is to calculate running costs - and on a technical level - charger efficiency.
The bulk of the time I want to know HOW FAR my 12kw/h pack will take me.
Maybe different people have different requirements for their measurement criteria...

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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Mon, 17 Feb 2014, 17:14

Johny wrote:
acmotor wrote: Sorry to disagree guys. Plug to wheel is what counts otherwise you are putting your head in the sand.
The only reason I care about wall to wheel is to calculate running costs - and on a technical level - charger efficiency.
The bulk of the time I want to know HOW FAR my 12kw/h pack will take me.
Maybe different people have different requirements for their measurement criteria...

When it is a different question plug to wheel is important, such as for working out overall running costs, in dollars or CO2 emissions or how much GreenPower required or whatever.
When the question is 'How far can I get with a full battery of XX kWh?', then battery to wheel is what matters.
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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 17 Feb 2014, 17:19

acmotor,
        I think you might have misinterpreted the question or more likely it was just lost a page back I should have quoted it in in my reply.

Yes wall plug to wheel tells the full picture on energy consumption as a package but I wasn't asked to give that data.

What we want to know is how much juce will the car suck from the battery averaged over a set distance at 100kph. That has nothing to do with charging.

The question being asked was battery to wheel.

Wall to wheel only tells me how much energy I am going to have to come up with to do it all again and yes its important from a running coast perspective but that's about it.

I'm not saying canion is accurate to the finest resolution possable . I think for the task at hand giving a reasonably accurate WHR/km average (consumed from the battery)over a distances it well good enough. Even if it happens to be a few WHR +\- each way.

I am going to make a point of doing the same log test every time I go on the freeway at 100kph from now on and I will come up with 20 or so WHR km numbers and see how much variation there is. My guess is they will be quite tight just like my avarages always are for my complete trip always within 5% .perhaps this is because we don't have windy conditions and all the variation that can bring.

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Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 17 Feb 2014, 12:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by adelaide-ev » Mon, 17 Feb 2014, 17:57

QUOTE: "What we want to know is how much juce will the car suck from the battery averaged over a set distance at 100kph. That has nothing to do with charging."

Precisely. Thanks for that test data Kurt - very handy as a baseline.

Is that run pretty level elevation wise? - do you ever go up the highway to Maleny or only the back road to conserve power for the up the steep hill bit?

The only misinterpretation is if someone took the 1.22kW/Hr to be wall to car usage. This figure was only used to calculate range at 100km/hr.

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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 17 Feb 2014, 23:44

The freeway section isn't flat lots of elevation gains and losses along the length but they are gentle so it feels reasonably flat while driving (perhaps not flat by Adelaide standards)Max gain is 85m followed by a loss of about the same size and lots of gentle small gains then loss of about 30-70m so over the length total gain/loss cancel each other out. it's the same in both directions.

Regarding the full trip 104km yes I have gone up there via the freeway and sat on 100kph (on the 40km long freeway section) A few times but you have to be more careful to get there with 20% capacity remaining. If you get excited and start doing 110 and overtaking lots of people or perhaps real heavy rain so your pushing through a sheet of water (when it rains it really rains in QLD)

The interesting part is my most economical run off all (going up ) I made it with 25% SOC vs typical 22-22% SOC . Was actually going via the freeway Image I'm not sure why perhaps there was a tail wind that day.

I think what's happening when I go the back roads if I get unlucky and get lots of red lights and erratic drivers that change speed all the time I end up doing lots of stop/start and that chews more energy every time I have to get the weight of the car moving again. Along with this the cars stationary running loads like AC are on for longer when you drive slower.

Economy driving is all about maintaining momentum and avoiding having to accelerate the mass of the car. A good run at 100kph once your moving where you can be gentle on the throttle to just keep that speed going constantly is reasonably efficient.
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Post by acmotor » Tue, 18 Feb 2014, 07:05

Maybe I got the question wrong.

Wasn't Chris asking how far the iMiEV will go at 100km/h ?
Telling him that the iMiEV uses 122Wh/km from the battery and that the battery is 16kWh is misleading. One of the two numbers is wrong. I know Kurt has pointed out battery capacity is less but you see that Chris had just taken 16kWh in his post.
The iMiEV battery takes 16.x kWh to charge from the -- indication. That includes charger losses so accessible battery capacity is simply not 16kWh. There is some unquantified capacity still there but you are crazy to be digging deeper.
What I see is kWh measured from the power point and km driven are two quite accurate numbers with no guess work involved.

Actual logging of recharge shows around 135Wh/km plug to wheel in my case for mixed though mostly fast driving with trip meter suggesting 87km/h averages. This rises to around 160 to 180 Wh/km for 100km/h dominant trips.

I see some folk reacted to a full picture ( well at least plug to wheel ) consideration of energy consumption.
Don't forget it is just one number times a charger efficiency so you can back calculate if you must but at least plug to wheel is a comparison across all EVs. And remember, when your battery is flat, you will actually need to recharge it.
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Yes, I can see that battery to wheel can be useful in some circumstances.
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 18 Feb 2014, 13:09

So taking my numbers and your numbers Acmotor. Is there 35% (very rough number I know) charging losses?

Given I can drive down the road for 30km consuming 122whr /km . Yet it's going to take roughly 160 - 180 whr km to return it to the battery

I see it like this. If you have a shunt on the outfeed of the battery and you measure your consumption in whrs as you drive around (drive how ever you like it doesn't matter) The moment the Imiev fuel gauge starts to flash (we can call this the safe usable capacity)record whrs consumed. Charge the back up straight away and measure the whrs pulled from the wall.

We now should have a accurate (on road) consumption number and a accurate recharge number. take one away from the other and we have charging loss number.

Once we have established that the fuel gage comes on at (for example) 14.2kwh then we can call that our usable capacity and any range numbers can be calculated from that 14.2kwh / the whr's consumed on the road

Acmotor, It would be nice to see what your whr/km numbers are when you go on a predominantly high speed run 100kph. To compare them to your plug to wheel numbers 160- 180 that you have recorded.

I am just keen to see what the recharge losses are and don't have a lot of plug to wheel numbers to work with like you have established.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 18 Feb 2014, 03:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 18 Feb 2014, 14:28

I am just charging the Imiev now to 100%. I need to go on reasonable drive (60km). I will log the trip (kwh consumed from battery) then charge it to 100% when I get home and compare the two numbers.

I do notice that canion only shown 1.6 - 1.7kw going into the battery when on charge but I am puling 2.2kw from the wall.

Kurt


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Post by acmotor » Tue, 18 Feb 2014, 17:30

Good, yes dig deeper on those logged numbers Kurt.
You are right. Making the ends line up may help clarify the situation.

I really can't get a reliable log from canion. Perhaps my phone (S4 mini) but it drops out too often on the bluetooth link using two different brand BTCAN units. One being the scan tools unit like yours. I'll try another android device.

I can however assure you of the plug to wall numbers that I log for 47,000km now. We will go blue in the face trying to argue with those !
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 18 Feb 2014, 19:02

Canion takes a bit to run I understand your pain when logging. I just try and eliminate any potential breaks in the communication. Don't run anything other than canion, switch of any hungry apps or notifications and don't have any other blue tooth devise running in the car.

I can usually get a clean log for 1 or 2 hrs on my weekend drive without a dropout. I do share your frustration when you get a drop out 1km from your house after logging a 100km trip. It's still not perfect but 8 out of 10 times it's fine.

I just went on a drive from The Gap brisbane to IKEA at spring wood and back again. Taking the freeway It's spot on 35km from my house 70km return trip. I had Aircon on auto all the way and did the speed limit all the way.

Canion logged 110whr/km - 7.7kwh from the battery. Fuel gauge was showing 1/2 (8 bars) consumed

I am charging it back to 100% now and will see how many kwh it takes to fill it again.

Report back around 5pm

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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 18 Feb 2014, 23:15

5pm was a good guess green (charged) light came on at 4:59pm Image

It took 4hr 15 min to recharge after the trip and pulled 8.8kwh from the wall plug vs 7.7kwh battery to wheels. That works out to be 125whr/km wall to wheels vs 110whr/km battery to wheels.

Roughly 13% more plug to wheels. This sounds reasonable to me taking into account charging losses/balancing and running the cooling pump and system (on) loads for 4 hrs 15 min. 1.1kwh difference over that time is 275w every hr the car was charging.

That 70km round trip was made up of 40km at freeway speeds(100kph) and the other 30km was main roads through suburbs 60kph with air conditioning on all the way. One driver no luggage reasonably flat with gentle breeze.

Kurt
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Post by g4qber » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 04:24

It is important not to have bluetooth streaming on

I now untick this rather than unpair
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 05:00

That seems a reasonable number Kurt. We need the trip graph and average speed data to complete the picture.

It still doesn't directly address the range at 100km/h question though as only 4/7 of the trip was at 100km/h.

So the charger itself may be close to the 95% efficiency that I originally was lead to believe given that the circulation pump, BMU, ECU and sundry lights and electronics probably consume at least half the 1.1kWh difference you measured.
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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 13:55

"It still doesn't directly address the range at 100km/h question though as only 4/7 of the trip was at 100km/h.
"

I wasnt trying to show consumption at 100kph. I already showed that a few post back from my test on Sunday. Sundays test I only logged the section of road where I traveled at 100kph. The results were 122whr/km, battery to wheel, AC on 3 people on board.

The test yesterday was just to show the difference between battery to wheel consumption and plug to wheel consumption. To find out what the charging losses are. So average speed, weather conditions, elevation gain, loss don't matter at all. I could drive how ever I liked it's irrelevant(I only mentioned the stats for Tuesdays drive for peoples curiosity or for comparison purposes) I established that plug to wheel was 13% more than battery to wheel.

So on my strictly 100kph test I did on Sunday resulted in 122whr/km + 12% = 136whr/km (wheel to wall).

I still have the view that battery to wheel is what matters when your out on the road and want to know what distance your battery's usable capacity will take you. Plug to wheel becomes irrelevant until you get home. The issue is establishing what is the usable capacity of the Imiev battery in a measurable form so we can count it down in whrs from full.

On that note I take my battery down to 20% SOC once a week and have canion logs of almost every run around 20 of them. I just went over them and every one of them shows 14kwh consumed from the battery +/- a few whr.

The lowest I have ever taken my battery (and don't plan to do it again)was 14% soc showing 14.9kwh from the battery.(the turtle comes on at 12% SOC)

So from this I say that the safe (80% DOD) usable capacity of my Imiev is 14kwh.

I can calculate range based on that. Sundays test at 122whr/km shows I could drive 114 km distance on that 14kwh(usable capacity) and have 20% soc at the end.


Kurt





Last edited by offgridQLD on Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 03:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 14:43

offgridQLD wrote:I can calculate range based on that. Sundays test at 122whr/km shows I could drive 114 km distance on that 14kwh(usable capacity) and have 20% soc at the end.
Exactly Kurt. It also allows comparison with non-iMievs by eliminating the vehicle variable charging system from the consumption figures. Good data - thanks for sharing (as always).

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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 15:45

The only thing that could be questioned about my findings is the acuracy of canion.

Canion was telling me I consumed 122whr km over that 30km at 100kph. Whats to say this 122whr is correct.

Nothing!(although I feel its reasonably accurate)The thing is it doesn't matter if its accurate or not. As long as its consistent.

The units of measure are irrelevant. In my example I know and with consistency 100% soc to 20% soc is 14kwh (lets call them canion kwh's Image )

As long as I am also using (canion kwh's) to both count up and count down in and they remain consistent. All that needs to be accurate to the true unit of measure is the (distance units)I know the distance measurements are accurate.Easy to confirm via cars speedo, google maps and a host of other ways.

The person to prove it. Is some one with a portable generator. They can drive to the nearest freeway. Pull over and top there battery back to 100%. Then drive at 100kph until Canion reads 20% SOC and record distance traveled. Then charge back up and drive home.

I know of one public charger thats just 50 meters off the freeway on the sunshine coast .The best I could do is charge to full there and dive north at 100kph for a set distance (based on my 1/2 of my assumed range) Then pull a u turn and come back to that same charger and see if I make it back with close to 20% SOC.

Honestly I cant count that there will be a off ramp at the 1/2 way point and I don't want to spend a day at that publick charger in the sun to prove a point.

I am happy with the data collected and to use it to predict range (its worked to date Image no turtle for me "touch wood"

kurt

   
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 16:26

Johny wrote:
offgridQLD wrote:I can calculate range based on that. Sundays test at 122whr/km shows I could drive 114 km distance on that 14kwh(usable capacity) and have 20% soc at the end.
Exactly Kurt. It also allows comparison with non-iMievs by eliminating the vehicle variable charging system from the consumption figures. Good data - thanks for sharing (as always).


1) The only number without question is the recharge energy.
2) An EV is a package that includes its recharge system. You can't eliminate something 'coz you don't like the number.

That is where I am coming from.

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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 16:39

Who said we don't like the number?

The plug to wheel number is fine and usefull if your trying to work out total consumption, energy running costs and things like that.

It's a useless number when your trying to work out range from the battery on the road.

Take this for example. Lets say (for the sake of the discussion) Mitsubishi installed a rubbish charger in the imiev and it was only 50% efficient. It would throw away 1.1kw of the 2.2kw being consumed from the wall into heat through the liquid cooling system.

How on earth would the recharging kwh numbers recorded from the above relate to the distance you could travel on the battery.

(km Range) = whr consumed per km divided by available battery whr capacity)

Its that simple I cant put it any other way. Perhaps your just trying to wind me up but that example should make it clear.


Kurt

Last edited by offgridQLD on Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 06:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 16:45

acmotor wrote: 1) The only number without question is the recharge energy.
2) An EV is a package that includes its recharge system. You can't eliminate something 'coz you don't like the number.

That is where I am coming from.

I don't think anyone is saying they don't like to think about the overall plug to wheel efficiency, or that they think it is not an important thing to think about to compare between different EVs; it's just that that is not the question they are asking here. Here the question is about range under highway conditions given a certain amount of battery storage. A between vehicle comparison, just concerned about the question of range under this particular condition requires only knowledge of battery to wheel efficiency. Plug to battery efficiency, important as it is, could vary grossly without changing the answer to the question about highway range in particular vehicles from a certain installed battery capacity.

How about another way to think about this? We have a coarse scale measure of kWh hours in and out of the battery. I believe I am correct that each bar on the battery gauge of the iMiEV is one kWh. If so, one could take a run at 100kph over some distance and see how many bars go. Obviously, the error would be quite large because of the coarse scale. Averaging over many such runs would give an accurate measure of Wh/km from the battery at 100kph.
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Post by Johny » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 16:54

I guess the most important point is that plug to wheel can not measure energy usage at different speeds. For that you have to use on-board live monitoring - which means battery to wheel.

For Kurt to be able to tell use the Wh/km figure for 100km/h he MUST use battery to wheel.
From there, the range at different speeds can be better determined allowing folks to plan trips with more confidence.

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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 17:16

My offgrid house is where I spent a bit of time making sure I know where all the energy is going and everything is acounted for.

Trying to keep track consumption based on the shunt inside the charge controller (the equivalent of my wall plug the i miev example) is misleading.

Having a shunt directly on the battery it's self nothing gets past in or out without knowing whats going on and it doesn't lie.

Having 3 more calibrated shunts at different points before and after the different stages in the system and live logging of them all sure dose show how the results varied depending on where and how you take your readings. When your relying on the data to keep your beer cold and water coming out of the tap you soon work out what data is relative to your needs and what is just (nice to know)

I guy on another forum did a interesting write up on usable AC kwh's from his off grid system and went into detail regarding all the inefficiencies with quite detailed logs. I found it interesting and then he did the same comparison after he switched from FLA to lithium batteries. That inspired me to go nuts with all the shunts and logging.

Raw data junky Image

Kurt
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 17:29

Yes to all that, but the live instantaneous energy number cannot be extrapolated to a whole trip. It can be logged and integrated for a result but that is what the recharge energy measurement gives.
So if you need to consider the whole trip then plug to wheel and battery to wheel will give the same range result as long as you don't make assumptions about battery capacity and actually do as Kurt suggests and consider the canion data as units and establish range from that.

I expect that as the battery pack ages for instance that the approx 1kWh per energy meter division will reduce and probably be more like 800Wh as the pack moves to the 80% point.

Another point is that every EV owner can measure plug to wheel, only a few have the hardware to measure battery to wheel so that makes it a less universal measurement.

IMHO



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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 17:37

Johny wrote: ...From there, the range at different speeds can be better determined allowing folks to plan trips with more confidence.

Having driven my home-converted car for 5 years I don't think knowing a range at a particular speed is especially useful (still interesting etc). Instead, what is useful is that I know that I can do a return trip from home to whereever locally without any problem when I start out full. For that particular car, experience from lots of local trips tells me I need not worry for any trip under 60km and I hardly ever consider trips more than that.
Now with the iMiEV I am laughing at how much range it has. I can do multiple typical local trips and the car thinks the remaining range is still 60-70km, as much as I am accustomed to having with a full charge.
So, now I need to experiment with some longer trips to test what is practical. So far, I did one trip out of town on the 110kph highway (with some km of suburbs at the start and a few km of farm track at the end). I arrived with more than half the battery remaining but topped up for a few hours while there and got home with plenty and clearly didn't really need the top up. Now I know I can do a trip out on the highway at least as far as that particular destination and back. It doesn't take long to build up a repetoire of known possible trips and compare any new trip to those. Google maps is good to work out the distance.
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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 17:48

I can work with that Image.

I will agree that Sundays test can only conclude that consumption of 122whr - km was only for that 30km stretch heading south under the same conditions.

To try relate that to any 100kmh freeway in Australia under any conditions wont give the same numbers.

That said it all comes down to variables. Personaly I know that that particular freeways conditions dont change much if you where to drive north for 100-200km reasonably flat with a few gradual undulations and typically moderate to no wind.

I feel reasonably confidant that I could drive the i miev up and down that freeway 100km north or south and always pull similar numbers at a guess 115 - 125 actually I think it would be even tighter than that.

At some point over the next week I will drive our Imiev from Brisbane to the gold coast (there is a public charger down there) thats about 75km one way on the freeway and record the live whr/km while at 100kmh over that 75km (I will take a punt now and say its going to be 120whr km)

With the Imiev your limited to a 100km or so radius from your house so as long as I know the average consumption of my car on the freeways N/S/W (east is in the water) then thats all I need to know to calculate range.

Regarding range in the suburbs I always get 100whr/km +/- 2whr at the end of a trip.

"Now I know I can do a trip out on the highway at least as far as that particular destination and back. It doesn't take long to build up a repetoire of known possible trips and compare any new trip to those. Google maps is good to work out the distance. "

In the end thats it. I have a little black book with locations and the kwr consumed to get there and back. I just went to Ikea on tue (first time in the imiev) and I now know its a (7.7kwh return trip) I know my house to our place on the (sunshine coast hinterland is a 14kwh trip) the local town is a (4kwh trip) any significant point of interest is in the book.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Wed, 19 Feb 2014, 06:59, edited 1 time in total.

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